Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 138

Sonustor · 06/19/10, 1:17 PM

Look at the damage break downs. It's showing half as many plague strikes as Icy Touches in the dual wield sim and doubling the damage they show when i run the same report with strikes unmerged. The sim is just listing averages based on 2 strikes per swing. I don't know why. For reference:

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances			Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
MainHand	959394644	19.1	209015	6605.8	42017	16.5	3212.5	103218	40.5	6600.3	45840	18	63780	25	2244.5
OffHand	596509139	11.9	211259	4044.5	44180	17.3	1981.7	103308	40.5	4072	43649	17.1	63771	25	1384.5
Ghoul	483016350	9.6	428138	1507.5	265161	61.9	1070.8	55254	12.9	2141.8			107723	25.2	749.5
DeathCoil	384281910	7.6	51269	7495.4	30951	58.9	5284	20318	38.7	10864.1	1281	2.4
ScourgeStrike	360434552	7.2	53484	6739.1	28427	52.7	4098.2	25057	46.4	9735.2	471	.9
FrostFever	269479856	5.4	107789	2500.1	107789	100	2500.1									99.4
BloodStrike	248182788	4.9	71978	3448	42903	59.1	2416.4	29075	40.1	4970.3	595	.8
BloodPlague	225130688	4.5	107943	2085.6	107943	100	2085.6									99.9
Gargoyle	217974022	4.3	45388	4802.5	39502	84.8	4250.7	5886	12.6	8505.7	1176	2.5
ScourgeStrikeMagical	192773896	3.8	53484	3604.3	28427	53.2	2192.5	25057	46.8	5206.1
Necrosis	186407102	3.7	209015	891.8	209015	100
Ghoul: Claw	151440781	3	90514	1673.1	78912	87.2	1604.5	11602	12.8	2140.1
WanderingPlague	145983655	2.9	64042	2279.5	64042	97.5					1636	2.5
BloodCakedBlade	136451808	2.7	61972	2201.8	61972	99.2	2201.8				511	.8
Necrosis(OH)	115880894	2.3	211259	548.5	211259	100
IcyTouch	86936149	1.7	18516	4695.2	11487	60.5	3352	7029	37	6890.3	485	2.6
BloodCakedBlade(OH)	86343431	1.7	63543	1358.8	63543	99.9	1358.8				74	.1
PlagueStrike	75415543	1.5	18514	4073.4	9893	53	2480.8	8621	46.2	5901	161	.9
Army of the Dead	39918271	.8	297395	134.2	259315	87.2	131.9	38080	12.8	150.1
UnholyBlight	38441078	.8	51269	749.8	51269	100
Saronite Bomb	15244572	.3	6172	2470	6172	100	2470
Global Thermal Sapper Charge	11457078	.2	2057	5569.8	1239	60.2	4514.3	818	39.8	7168.6
DPS	13964(+/- 2765)
Total Damage	5027.1m	in 100h
Total runic power used: 2225480 (70 wasted)
Threat Per Second	9581
Generated in	46s
Template:	17-0-54 Unholy DW
Priority:	Unholy
Presence:	Blood
Sigil:	Virulence
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader /	FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation:	True

Strikes unmerged. same setup again with strikes merged:

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances			Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
Melee	1555903783	31	420274	5315.3	86197	16.9	2581.6	206526	40.5	5335.6	89489	17.6	127551	25	1814.5
Ghoul	634457131	12.6	313187	3087.9	172036	54.9	2386.4	33428	10.7	4283.1			107723	34.4	749.5
ScourgeStrike	553208448	11	53484	10343.4	28427	52.9	6290.7	25057	46.6	14941.3	236	.4
DeathCoil	384281910	7.6	51269	7495.4	30951	58.9	5284	20318	38.7	10864.1	1281	2.4
Necrosis	302287996	6	210137	1438.5	210137	100
FrostFever	269479856	5.4	107789	2500.1	107789	100	2500.1									99.4
BloodStrike	248182788	4.9	35990	6895.9	21452	59.1	4832.7	14538	40.1	9940.3	298	.8
BloodPlague	225130688	4.5	107943	2085.6	107943	100	2085.6									99.9
BloodCakedBlade	222795239	4.4	62758	3550.1	62758	99.5	3550.1				292	.5
Gargoyle	217974022	4.3	45388	4802.5	39502	84.8	4250.7	5886	12.6	8505.7	1176	2.5
WanderingPlague	145983655	2.9	64042	2279.5	64042	97.5					1636	2.5
IcyTouch	86936149	1.7	18516	4695.2	11487	60.5	3352	7029	37	6890.3	485	2.6
PlagueStrike	75415543	1.5	9256	8147.7	4946	53	4962.2	4310	46.2	11803.4	80	.9
Army of the Dead	39918271	.8	297395	134.2	259315	87.2	131.9	38080	12.8	150.1
UnholyBlight	38441078	.8	51269	749.8	51269	100
Saronite Bomb	15244572	.3	6172	2470	6172	100	2470
Global Thermal Sapper Charge	11457078	.2	2057	5569.8	1239	60.2	4514.3	818	39.8	7168.6
DPS	13964(+/- 2765)
Total Damage	5027.1m	in 100h
Total runic power used: 2225480 (70 wasted)
Threat Per Second	9245
Generated in	47s
Template:	17-0-54 Unholy DW
Priority:	Unholy
Presence:	Blood
Sigil:	Virulence
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader /	FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation:	True

Same exact setup. Unchecking the Merge Strikes box halves the average damage and doubles the hits. I do not have Threat of Thassarian talented.

Also, I'm showing the same number of Saronite Bombs and Sapper Charge uses in all sims.

Edit: As for number of death coils/strikes between the 2, they aren't directly comparable. The dual wield set has more spell hit and more haste because I swapped 3 str/hit gems for str/haste and gained the hit from the Bloodvenom Blades. As a human, I also got 3 expertise from using swords. So the potential is there to open up new Global cooldowns to get more death coils cast. I realize ideally you'd compare exact sets, but i can't realistically get the same stats in a dual wield set as a 2h set.

Plus I'm not some kind of text browsing superhero, so I posted here to see if others could find fault/replicate it on their sims. So you won't hurt my feelings pointing out something I've failed to look at.

Garyuutensei · 06/19/10, 1:53 PM

I think the simulator works this way:
When it finds you dual-wield it gives strikes a chance to hit with offhand. That chance is equal to 0%/30%/60%/100% where 0% is when you have 0 points in ToT. Instead of a chance to strike with the offhand, they simulation may use 0/30/50/100% offhand strike damage. You may ask why this doesn't aply to SS. The answer that such a mechanic was not needed for SS because you can't have both SS and ToT. The same should apply to HS.

So if my guess is right, you are getting x number of strikes with main hand and x number of strikes of 0 dmg with the offhand, which are not displayed. When checking merge, the 0dmg strikes of the offhand are added and the simulator now displays 2x number of strikes but for half the dmg.

kc102 · 06/19/10, 2:49 PM

Originally Posted by Consider

As to imp UP up there, what was the latency set to? It shouldn't be wasting that much RP normally, even with BS prioritized. Also, what talent did you sacrifice for IUP? It obviously wasn't Necrosis or BCB, and some quick math shows it couldn't have been BI or Desolation.

Actually, it was Desolation. I lose a total of 17% damage between Blood Pres and the 2 points outa Desolation. The following sims were made with no ICC buff, Blood runes synced, and 300 lat.

DPS| 11084(+/- 653) Blood Pres

DPS| 11195(+/- 682) Unholy Pres

These next ones, Blood runes aren't synced, and lat has been reduced to 200.

DPS| 11326(+/- 725) Blood

DPS| 11201(+/- 608) Unholy

It appears that higher lat means you want to DPS in Unholy pres. Now the ICC buff is at 20%.

DPS| 13460(+/- 2781) B

DPS| 13287(+/- 2642) U

Now this saddens me. I really thought I was going to be able to DPS in Unholy Presence.
I ran one last test with DC over BS, but wasn't any closer. DPS| 13186(+/- 2793)

I also checked out the DPS at 500 lat.

DPS| 12725(+/- 2614) B
DPS| 12965(+/- 2565) U

tl;dr: The more lat you have, the better DPSing in Unholy pres with Imp. Unholy pres becomes.

rh8452 · 06/20/10, 3:07 AM

If the DPS difference between blood presence and unholy presence is that low (~200 dps), then on virtually any fight with extensive movement such as heroic lich king or blood prince council, unholy presence will often result in higher DPS for the encounter. In addition (if not an engineer), you will be able to use 32AP or icewalker instead of tuskarr to boots which compensates slightly.

I was planning on using an IUP build for heroic lich king this week since I'm not an engineer and the run speed increase is of great value on that encounter, and I'll post some comparisons.

Mitranim · 06/20/10, 3:39 AM

I've tried IUP build in ICC 25 normal modes, as well as unmodified movement speed in hardmodes. From my personal experience, the difference between normal and increased movement speed is barely noticeable on any fight, including movement-heavy Putricide and TLK.

Right now I'm sitting on 100% movement speed, and didn't have any inconvenience during yesterday heroic LK kill.

Speaking of TLK specifically, you might only really need speed increase for carrying out plague on phase 1 and defile on phase 2, and these can be easily offset with engineer boots enchant. You might run into some inconvenience if your LK tank is a paladin with 15% increase, but predicting tank movement and taking advantage of LK's frequent casts should help you.

Why suffer it? Because taking 2 points out from DPS talents is one thing you can't afford, considering how DPS-demanding the fight is (and the fact that you already have to spend two points on Desecration).

Edit: had to point out that even with IUP build, blood presence should yield more DPS.

Garyuutensei · 06/20/10, 8:40 AM

I did some sims with my setup to see if IUP is really increasing dps or just the fact that you are switching to dual wield. Sims are with 250ms latency and ICC20% buff.

1) My normal 2h setup

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances			Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
MainHand	983722159	22.1	160391	8201.3	68025	42.2	4839.5	51922	32.2	9966.4	960	.6	40444	25.1	3388.3
Ghoul	461137934	10.4	387621	1589	240091	61.9	1128.8	50108	12.9	2257.9			97422	25.1	790.1
ScourgeStrike	454911858	10.2	53496	8503.7	32920	61.2	5558.8	20576	38.2	13215.2	312	.6
DeathCoil	390636773	8.8	51644	7564	34163	66.2	5565.3	17481	33.8	11470.1
FrostFever	291290794	6.5	109865	2651.4	109865	100	2651.4									99.2
BloodStrike	288114116	6.5	65506	4398.3	44409	67.4	3279.4	21097	32	6753.5	349	.5
ScourgeStrikeMagical	251300640	5.6	53496	4697.6	32920	61.5	3070.6	20576	38.5	7300.6
BloodPlague	244307958	5.5	110236	2216.2	110236	100	2216.2									99.7
Necrosis	191117236	4.3	160391	1191.6	160391	100
Gargoyle	178763223	4	36693	4871.9	31986	87.2	4317.2	4707	12.8	8641.1
Ghoul: Claw	159874694	3.6	90514	1766.3	78912	87.2	1693.9	11602	12.8	2259
BloodCakedBlade	158685976	3.6	47810	3319.1	47810	99.5	3319.1				243	.5
WanderingPlague	132541681	3	54617	2426.7	54617	100
PlagueStrike	99081436	2.2	18517	5350.8	11429	61.4	3505.3	7088	38.1	8326.7	100	.5
IcyTouch	88136004	2	18518	4759.5	12517	67.6	3542.7	6001	32.4	7297.5
UnholyBlight	39066976	.9	51644	756.5	51644	100
Army of the Dead	37950301	.9	254123	149.3	221327	87.1	147.9	32796	12.9	158.9
DPS	12363(+/- 2487)
Total Damage	4450.64m	in 100h
Total runic power used: 2188760 (0 wasted)
Threat Per Second	8439
Generated in	36s
Template:	Unholy 0/17/54
Priority:	Unholy
Presence:	Blood
Sigil:	HangedMan
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation:	True

2) DW Setup with 2x Soulbreaker hc. 3 points in Nerves of Cold Steel instead of Black Ice

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances			Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
MainHand	810529142	18.1	203760	5613.8	63635	26.8	2985.1	80747	34	6148.8	33430	14.1	59378	25	2089.6
OffHand	507550980	11.3	203953	3509	63851	26.9	1867.5	80792	34.1	3846.7	33236	14	59310	25	1307.2
Ghoul	445921176	10	398839	1493.5	246995	61.9	1060.7	51583	12.9	2121.7			100261	25.1	742.9
DeathCoil	374052444	8.4	52529	7120.9	34883	66.4	5248.4	17646	33.6	10822.4
ScourgeStrike	320853907	7.2	53486	5998.8	31894	59.6	3855.5	21592	40.4	9164.9
FrostFever	271645934	6.1	107937	2516.7	107937	100	2516.7									99.2
BloodPlague	226202914	5.1	108727	2080.5	108727	100	2080.5									99.7
BloodStrike	213927457	4.8	69337	3085.3	45738	66	2267.6	23599	34	4670.2
ScourgeStrikeMagical	174983092	3.9	53486	3271.6	31894	59.6	2102.6	21592	40.4	4998.3
Gargoyle	167934481	3.8	35380	4746.6	30830	87.1	4206.6	4550	12.9	8405.3
Necrosis	157496570	3.5	203760	773	203760	100
Ghoul: Claw	150247030	3.4	90514	1659.9	78912	87.2	1592	11602	12.8	2121.9
WanderingPlague	128890703	2.9	56320	2288.5	56320	100
BloodCakedBlade	124802166	2.8	60927	2048.4	60927	100	2048.4
Necrosis(OH)	98593432	2.2	203953	483.4	203953	100
IcyTouch	83929344	1.9	18514	4533.3	12562	67.9	3382.5	5952	32.1	6962.2
BloodCakedBlade(OH)	78766996	1.8	61445	1281.9	61445	100	1281.9
PlagueStrike	66764105	1.5	18514	3606.1	11068	59.8	2319.6	7446	40.2	5518.5
UnholyBlight	37394664	.8	52529	711.9	52529	100
Army of the Dead	35893164	.8	262395	136.8	228521	87.1	135.2	33874	12.9	147.4
DPS	12434(+/- 2606)
Total Damage	4476.38m	in 100h
Total runic power used: 2222120 (0 wasted)
Threat Per Second	8560
Generated in	48s
Template:	Unholy Dual Wield 0/17/54
Priority:	Unholy
Presence:	Blood
Sigil:	HangedMan
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader /	Cinderglacier
Pet Calculation:	True

3) DW Setup in UP

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances			Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
MainHand	816282563	18.9	234831	4901.1	73583	26.9	2608.6	92968	34	5374.3	38458	14.1	68280	25	1826.3
Ghoul	513214319	11.9	457728	1497.9	283554	61.9	1064.1	59078	12.9	2127.7			115096	25.1	745.4
OffHand	511207056	11.8	235087	3065.1	73634	26.9	1631.6	93149	34.1	3360.9	38202	14	68304	25	1142
DeathCoil	359583350	8.3	57678	6234.3	38353	66.5	4601.9	19325	33.5	9474
ScourgeStrike	279941317	6.5	53486	5233.9	31894	59.6	3363.6	21592	40.4	7996.5
FrostFever	236066016	5.5	106972	2206.8	106972	100	2206.8									99.6
BloodPlague	197536482	4.6	108000	1829	108000	100	1829									100
BloodStrike	193553066	4.5	71935	2690.7	47438	65.9	1976.7	24497	34.1	4073.2
Necrosis	158553584	3.7	234831	675.2	234831	100
Ghoul: Claw	150801773	3.5	90514	1666.1	78912	87.2	1597.9	11602	12.8	2129.7
Gargoyle	138782134	3.2	29220	4749.6	25436	87	4205.7	3784	13	8405.7
ScourgeStrikeMagical	135337718	3.1	53486	2530.3	31894	59.6	1625.9	21592	40.4	3866.3
BloodCakedBlade	125696144	2.9	70118	1792.6	70118	100	1792.6
WanderingPlague	112464968	2.6	56029	2007.3	56029	100
Necrosis(OH)	99321745	2.3	235087	422.5	235087	100
BloodCakedBlade(OH)	79291222	1.8	70717	1121.2	70717	100	1121.2
IcyTouch	73515844	1.7	18514	3970.8	12562	67.9	2961.1	5952	32.1	6101.8
PlagueStrike	58248767	1.4	18514	3146.2	11068	59.8	2022.6	7446	40.2	4816.4
Army of the Dead	38757657	.9	303555	127.7	264904	87.3	125.2	38651	12.7	144.4
UnholyBlight	35949523	.8	57678	623.3	57678	100
DPS	11984(+/- 2527)
Total Damage	4314.11m	in 100h
Total runic power used: 2410800 (0 wasted)
Threat Per Second	8113
Generated in	54s
Template:	Unholy Dual Wield 0/17/54
Priority:	Unholy
Presence:	Unholy
Sigil:	HangedMan
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader /	Cinderglacier
Pet Calculation:	True

4) DW Setup with IUP

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances			Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
MainHand	800074609	18.1	234346	4813.4	73436	26.9	2563.1	92781	34	5277.7	38366	14.1	68129	25	1793.4
Ghoul	512598289	11.6	456698	1499.5	282916	61.9	1065.2	58936	12.9	2130.5			114846	25.1	745.9
OffHand	501035051	11.3	234588	3010.5	73466	26.9	1602.4	92964	34.1	3300.8	38120	14	68158	25	1121.7
DeathCoil	383053763	8.7	62772	6102.3	41794	66.6	4506.7	20978	33.4	9281.2
ScourgeStrike	312104342	7.1	60748	5137.7	36162	59.5	3298.4	24586	40.5	7843
FrostFever	241651684	5.5	112432	2149.3	112432	100	2149.3									99
Gargoyle	211679649	4.8	45208	4682.3	39345	87	4144.1	5863	13	8294.2
BloodStrike	196652472	4.4	74519	2639	49166	66	1939.7	25353	34	3995.1
BloodPlague	182195648	4.1	102857	1771.3	102857	100	1771.3									100
Necrosis	155472624	3.5	234346	663.4	234346	100
Ghoul: Claw	150886608	3.4	90514	1667	78912	87.2	1598.7	11602	12.8	2131.2
ScourgeStrikeMagical	148035066	3.3	60748	2436.9	36162	59.5	1564.6	24586	40.5	3719.8
BloodCakedBlade	123036445	2.8	69959	1758.7	69959	100	1758.7
WanderingPlague	111623879	2.5	56614	1971.7	56614	100
Necrosis(OH)	97334272	2.2	234588	414.9	234588	100
IcyTouch	79215992	1.8	20509	3862.5	13892	67.7	2876.5	6617	32.3	5932.4
BloodCakedBlade(OH)	77600525	1.8	70568	1099.7	70568	100	1099.7
PlagueStrike	63409220	1.4	20509	3091.8	12267	59.8	1992.8	8242	40.2	4727.4
Army of the Dead	38961648	.9	303555	128.4	264904	87.3	125.9	38651	12.7	144.9
UnholyBlight	38302506	.9	62772	610.2	62772	100
DPS	12291(+/- 2555)
Total Damage	4424.92m	in 100h
Total runic power used: 2633100 (0 wasted)
Threat Per Second	8203
Generated in	57s
Template:	Unholy Dual Wield 0/17/54 IUP
Priority:	Unholy
Presence:	Unholy
Sigil:	HangedMan
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader /	Cinderglacier
Pet Calculation:	True

Also note that I have 26 expertise. Expertise is more valuable the more latency you have. The same holds true for UP. Thus, the less expertise and the higher your latency, the more valuable UP/IUP becomes.

Here are also the EP values for the DW setup without the IUP:

EP AttackPower | 1 (0.9 DPS/per AP)
EP Strength | 3.11
EP Agility | 1.31
EP CritRating | 1.91
EP HasteEstimated | 2.78
EP HasteRating1 | 3.09
EP ArmorPenetrationRating | 2.18
EP ExpertiseRating | 2.67
Personal Expertise value | 0
BeforeMeleeHitCap<8% | 4.11
EP SpellHitRating | 2.53
EP WeaponDPS | 5.56
EP WeaponSpeed | 277.78
| Template | Unholy Dual Wield 01754
| Priority | Unholy
| Presence | Blood
| Sigil | HangedMan
| RuneEnchant | FallenCrusader / Cinderglacier
| Pet Calculation | True

Hit rating over the 8% cap, has a 2.53 value, making it worth to stack pass the cap. It's actually the 2nd best stat after haste. Thus, going for a bis setup with these values in mind would mean an even bigger dps gap between 2h and DW setups.

Although simulations are insightful, there could be errors, so If anyone with the apropriate setup could test this, it could give us a definitive answer.

Urokan · 06/23/10, 10:16 AM

Talking about: [Frost Sub-spec Without Reaping] 0/17/54

Wouldn't it result in higher DPS, if I change points from "Dirge" to "Subversion"?

Another question

Do my diseases take a snapshot of my stats and will do the same damage for their whole duration or does the damage of my diseases change as my stats changes?

I would appreciate your help

Artazoth · 06/23/10, 12:58 PM

Some feedback on the new look:
I think the old one is better due to the fact that you could immediately mouse over individual gear pieces and see the details for it. You can always post the summary of the total stats beside it.

Also, what's the reason behind the expertise-cap gear sets? Did the EP of exp change in 3.3.5? Is it worth going for exp cap now?

Originally Posted by Urokan

Do my diseases take a snapshot of my stats and will do the same damage for their whole duration or does the damage of my diseases change as my stats changes?

Snapshot.

rh8452 · 06/23/10, 4:17 PM

I tried IUP (I am also specced desecration for HLK) for a while in our ICC 25 heroic 11/12 farm night yesterday. It definitely lagged behind on single target fights like saurfang and rotface, but not by an awful lot. I ended up going 2/5 necrosis and 4/5 desolation to find the 4 points. On marrowgar it lagged more because while I myself can keep up with the boss's movement better, my ghoul cannot and spent a lot of time running around during bone storm making increased pet damage rather useless. Encounters where you can freely soak RP via AMS will yield a small increase due to being able to cast 3x death coil at the end of a rotation due to the extra GCDs available.

After getting a DBW from saurfang I swapped back to the regular sub frost cookie cutter spec (still with desecration) for putricide onwards.

One highlight was on deathwhisper where I ended up WoL ranked somehow despite no DBW at the time or shadowmourne. The run speed increase and faster GCDs are somewhat good for adds which have a low lifespan, but with 25% we got a bit lazy and essentially ate ghosts for half the fight. Players in guilds still progressing on this encounter may find run speed of more use.

On heroic lich king last week, I used IUP and found it lagged behind non-IUP in overall damage by roughly 5%, however the additional run speed is indeed good for handling defile and keeping on raging spirits as you run in with one still alive post-transition. On our longest attempt in P3 (14 minutes) I actually pulled ahead of previous non-IUP numbers with IUP. IUP was a fair bit weaker on valks but very slightly stronger on LK himself due to a bit more melee time on him despite his movement, compensating for reaction time / server lag (which we have a lot of on KT). Because it is weaker on valks I'm not going to continue to use it as valk damage is where we need to improve the most.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis was the entire tuesday report.

Chani · 06/24/10, 7:37 AM

Am I the only one who has difficulties to figure through the couple of last posts. What is this with UP and IUP and 2h or DW or UP+DW or what. I mean thanks Garyuutensei for the parses which give fair overview. But what should we learm from all this. Is this the revival of DW Unholy? Now the question is, where does Unholy DW stands compared to Frost DW? What about Unholy DW + Arp Setup? I would expect that ArP Setups would benefit from DW more than with 2h.

7alisman · 06/24/10, 12:10 PM

Honestly, I think the idea behind it is to show that DW Unholy is still feasible, but moreso related to the users personal preference. Realistically, while one setup appears 100 dps higher than the typical 2H, it also has a higher variance number by almost 200 points.

In the end, as mentioned, its purely going to be a matter of personal preference, read it as just that.

Pwnzi · 06/24/10, 1:02 PM

Lately, I feel like the burst/spike dps I put out at the start of encounters is lacking. What opening rotation do some of you (with top parses) use?

I do the basics: prepot haste with army and time gargoyle with cds/procs... Perhaps I'm missing something? Any advice is greatly appreciated.

lwsplking · 06/24/10, 4:28 PM

Originally Posted by Pwnzi

Lately, I feel like the burst/spike dps I put out at the start of encounters is lacking. What opening rotation do some of you (with top parses) use?

I do the basics: prepot haste with army and time gargoyle with cds/procs... Perhaps I'm missing something? Any advice is greatly appreciated.

If I am trying to maximize my initial burst dps, as 2H UH my opening looks a lot like:
Pre-pull Bone Shield, Pre-pull AotD, Pre-pull DnD to get Advantage up, Pre-pull Potion of Speed, Pre-pull HoW for the runic power
PS, IT, BS, SS, BS, BT, BS, DC, DC, SS, BS, SS, BS, ERW, SS, SS, Garg then twist the disease refresh (IT, PS) then commense with priority

♦ arison · 06/24/10, 4:59 PM

Originally Posted by lwsplking

If I am trying to maximize my initial burst dps, as 2H UH my opening looks a lot like:
Pre-pull Bone Shield, Pre-pull AotD, Pre-pull DnD to get Advantage up, Pre-pull Potion of Speed, Pre-pull HoW for the runic power
PS, IT, BS, SS, BS, BT, BS, DC, DC, SS, BS, SS, BS, ERW, SS, SS, Garg then twist the disease refresh (IT, PS) then commense with priority

You want to get your Gargoyle out before your pre-potted Potion of Speed runs out. Likewise, if you're an engineer, be sure your glove haste is up when you bring out your gargoyle. Watch for Speed of the Vrykul from your DBW. A perfect storm for your gargoyle is pre-potted PoSpeed, hyperspeed accelerators, Speed of the Vrykul, and Heroism. Your gargoyle's damage is linear to haste, basically, so these combine to do a significant amount of burst. I usually get mine out after my first SS because otherwise one or more of the above effects would wear out. In particular, you should pre-pot *after* the army, not before -- even one cast of your gargoyle should be 3-4x the damage of pre-AotD, and you want the haste effect on your gargoyle.

The gargoyle snapshots your haste when it is summoned, which is why the very short-lived modifiers actually have very big effects on your gargoyle's DPS (as opposed to your permaghoul, which updates his haste based on yours as it changes).

Pwnzi · 06/24/10, 5:32 PM

Originally Posted by arison

You want to get your Gargoyle out before your pre-potted Potion of Speed runs out. Likewise, if you're an engineer, be sure your glove haste is up when you bring out your gargoyle. Watch for Speed of the Vrykul from your DBW. A perfect storm for your gargoyle is pre-potted PoSpeed, hyperspeed accelerators, Speed of the Vrykul, and Heroism. Your gargoyle's damage is linear to haste, basically, so these combine to do a significant amount of burst. I usually get mine out after my first SS because otherwise one or more of the above effects would wear out. In particular, you should pre-pot *after* the army, not before -- even one cast of your gargoyle should be 3-4x the damage of pre-AotD, and you want the haste effect on your gargoyle.

The gargoyle snapshots your haste when it is summoned, which is why the very short-lived modifiers actually have very big effects on your gargoyle's DPS (as opposed to your permaghoul, which updates his haste based on yours as it changes).

Other than the timing of the haste pot, you're in agreement with his opening sequence?

dr_AllCOM3 · 06/24/10, 6:49 PM

Originally Posted by Pwnzi

Lately, I feel like the burst/spike dps I put out at the start of encounters is lacking. What opening rotation do some of you (with top parses) use?

I do the basics: prepot haste with army and time gargoyle with cds/procs... Perhaps I'm missing something? Any advice is greatly appreciated.

My burst dps is very good lately. I'm really surprised that Unholy can do that much burst damage (and the sustained damage is better than expected).
I'm not doing anything special. Use runes - Gargoyle (behind me) - ERW - Refresh diseases - Proceed as usual. It's more about the timing, there's a lot going on for the first 30s. I do not watch out for any buffs, I just assume they're up.

CB2BiG4U · 06/24/10, 7:08 PM

I Bone shield, Aotd, HoW, pre pot and go with PS,IT,BS,SS,BS,ERW,SS,SS, Gargoyle,BS, BS, Dump. Then reapply disease and go with your reg priority / rotation. Using that set up I have all procs up, including sigil at full when garg comes out and I can usually reapply diseases before procs fall and chaos bane comes off.

Power auras set up to make sure all buffs are up and hyperspeed accelerators macrod in on SS. fyi

Never saw that question asked on the unholy forum. I was curious as what people think would be best also.

Rotface parse
I could have done better =/

Beckinsale · 06/25/10, 4:46 AM

Originally Posted by arison

You want to get your Gargoyle out before your pre-potted Potion of Speed runs out. Likewise, if you're an engineer, be sure your glove haste is up when you bring out your gargoyle. Watch for Speed of the Vrykul from your DBW. A perfect storm for your gargoyle is pre-potted PoSpeed, hyperspeed accelerators, Speed of the Vrykul, and Heroism. Your gargoyle's damage is linear to haste, basically, so these combine to do a significant amount of burst. I usually get mine out after my first SS because otherwise one or more of the above effects would wear out. In particular, you should pre-pot *after* the army, not before -- even one cast of your gargoyle should be 3-4x the damage of pre-AotD, and you want the haste effect on your gargoyle.

The gargoyle snapshots your haste when it is summoned, which is why the very short-lived modifiers actually have very big effects on your gargoyle's DPS (as opposed to your permaghoul, which updates his haste based on yours as it changes).

At least for me I can get both my army and gargoyle off before my pre-pot runs out.

Dnd > Haste Pot > Army > Horn > Blood Tap (purely for the rp, I haven't tested enough to see if I actually need the rp from this for Garg) > Then I usually rocket boots to the boss to get attacking faster depending on the fight and go into my opener on the boss, then use Garg with about 1 second left on the pot and try and let as many of my buffs proc as possible. I try and use ERW with all my procs up as well right after this.

rh8452 · 06/25/10, 8:44 AM

It has been previously mentioned in a past discussion here that there may be a "haste cap" for gargoyle where additional haste rating becomes useless.

I tossed on a bunch of old haste gear with haste gems in it. 2128 haste rating (gear, food, elixir, fire festival food, haste pot, DBW 700 haste proc), in blood presence brought gargoyle cast time for me down to 1.08 seconds. This is in line with 25.21 haste giving 1% for DKs - the spell tooltip indicated 64.9% haste, but the cast time reduction went by melee haste (84.41%). The spell tooltip is different because the 3.1 patch which boosted the value of haste for DK/druid/shaman/paladin only boosted the per-point value of melee haste, not spell haste. The only thing spell haste will affect is our spell GCD. Keep in mind that while 2128 haste sounds high, with pot/trinkets and BiS gear plus raid buffs, this level of haste rating is quite attainable.

In unholy presence cast time went down to 0.94 seconds. Again, in line with multiplicative haste scaling, 1.08 / 1.15 = 0.939. Displayed cast time always rounds up.

Gargoyle cast speed benefits from icy talons (and thus presumably windfury). With 2128 haste, unholy presence and icy talons, I got the cast speed down to 0.79. This is without bloodlust, engineering gloves, battle chicken or badge on-use haste trinket. With this cast speed, it cast gargoyle strike 20 times during its spawn. There were moments where it would cast 2-3x in a row then pause for a half second before casting again. I could not get more than 20 casts.

I am not an engineer or troll and did not have a shaman around, or any other raid buffs. So what I'd like to see is if someone can get the cast time down even further and analyze whether this nets additional gargoyle strike casts, or whether there is indeed a cap on the number of casts attainable during the pet's lifespan. There is some downtime involved in the gargoyle landing and orienting itself, and it appears to interrupt an unfinished cast to fly away when its time is up. With windfury, bloodlust and troll racial I would have had the cast time down to 0.39.

♦ arison · 06/25/10, 3:43 PM

Originally Posted by rh8452

It has been previously mentioned in a past discussion here that there may be a "haste cap" for gargoyle where additional haste rating becomes useless.

I tossed on a bunch of old haste gear with haste gems in it. 2128 haste rating (gear, food, elixir, fire festival food, haste pot, DBW 700 haste proc), in blood presence brought gargoyle cast time for me down to 1.08 seconds. This is in line with 25.21 haste giving 1% for DKs - the spell tooltip indicated 64.9% haste, but the cast time reduction went by melee haste (84.41%). The spell tooltip is different because the 3.1 patch which boosted the value of haste for DK/druid/shaman/paladin only boosted the per-point value of melee haste, not spell haste. The only thing spell haste will affect is our spell GCD. Keep in mind that while 2128 haste sounds high, with pot/trinkets and BiS gear plus raid buffs, this level of haste rating is quite attainable.

In unholy presence cast time went down to 0.94 seconds. Again, in line with multiplicative haste scaling, 1.08 / 1.15 = 0.939. Displayed cast time always rounds up.

Gargoyle cast speed benefits from icy talons (and thus presumably windfury). With 2128 haste, unholy presence and icy talons, I got the cast speed down to 0.79. This is without bloodlust, engineering gloves, battle chicken or badge on-use haste trinket. With this cast speed, it cast gargoyle strike 20 times during its spawn. There were moments where it would cast 2-3x in a row then pause for a half second before casting again. I could not get more than 20 casts.

I am not an engineer or troll and did not have a shaman around, or any other raid buffs. So what I'd like to see is if someone can get the cast time down even further and analyze whether this nets additional gargoyle strike casts, or whether there is indeed a cap on the number of casts attainable during the pet's lifespan. There is some downtime involved in the gargoyle landing and orienting itself, and it appears to interrupt an unfinished cast to fly away when its time is up. With windfury, bloodlust and troll racial I would have had the cast time down to 0.39.

Gargoyles are stupid and like to reposition, fly off, melee, etc, but I have verified in combat logs they absolutely can cast well under 1.0 seconds, and do so chain casting. I usually see 20-25 seconds of actual active DPS time from a gargoyle, depending on the encounter. I am skeptical that there is a hard cap on the number of casts, but it is possible, and we should get hard testing to confirm one way or another. We need more than anecdotes though -- actual raw combat logs are ideal. I'll test this tonight or tomorrow. If someone else wishes to, you can PM me the raw logs (from WoWCombatLog.txt; just the relevant gargoyle portion, of course) or upload them to WoL.

The old theory about a haste cap of 1.0s cast speed is easily disproven, but if there is a cast cap then there is an effective haste cap, and the simulators will need updated to reflect it.

Zelretch · 06/25/10, 7:53 PM

The Alliance expertise capped set has 31 expertise as it currently is. Using [Formula: Enchant Bracer - Expertise] and replacing [Skeleton Lord's Circle] with [Might of Blight] looks like a better setup.

rh8452 · 06/25/10, 9:54 PM

Originally Posted by arison

or upload them to WoL.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

This is a WoL snippet of a test on the heroic dummy in UC with 0.79 cast time. This time, it only cast 18 times despite the same amount of haste (2128) and same buffs. I do twist it as well to avoid it being in range to melee swing.

Nifty01 · 06/26/10, 10:32 AM

I think the "BIS all items" list should have a sovereign dreadstone in the chest and a chaotic skyflare as meta according to the EP.

CB2BiG4U · 06/26/10, 1:50 PM

The socket bonus and str/stam gem you would put in does not make up for the strength loss. Given it says he has an etched in there which i think is an accident. I find it a bigger stat increase to put the nightmare tear in the chest and gem the pants all strength. IMHO

Nifty01 · 06/26/10, 4:09 PM

Taking the BIS ep values.

20str gem + 21agi meta = 91,81 EP

10str/15stam gem + 6str bonus +21crit meta = 94,07 EP

The pants are an even better place to put a blue gem since the Ep loss is only 1,5EP through the yellow gem and 6,22EP through the blue gem compared to the 12,44EP loss in the chest.

conclusion: go with sovereign dreadstone + nightmare tear and crit meta.