Are we talking about a DPS gain switching to 17/0/54 right now in the Oblit gear we have (ArPen heavy)? Or is this a gain only after regearing to the new stat weights? I would prefer to switch sooner rather than later.
According to what I've simulated and tested in current 3.2.0 live environment it could be. In my case it seems to be about 100 dps increase (no raid testing done, yet, though), but even though I did have ArP heavy gear I have gemmed exclusively for +STR. I would strongly suggest that you put your current gear stats into simulator and go through both specs, if the 17/0/54 isn't a clear dps decrease you might as well spec now. 3.2.2 isn't far off anyway.
And how about not skipping reaping and using it on 2 ITs?
Doesn't work. Your average IT is only 2700 (remember, no Imp IT or Black Ice), while your average BS is about 3350. As such, 2 IT will do approximately 1300 less damage than 2 BS. The former does generate twice as much RP, however (40 as opposed to 20), so you can then add half of a DC/UB to it. With DC averaging out at ~5600, that means you get 2300 damage (plus 460 from UB), which makes for a net gain of 1460 damage using 2 IT over 2 BS. You would be making this trade once per 20 seconds, meaning that comes out to 73 DPS.
3 points for 73 dps is not worth it. You get 2x-3x more by having those points in Desolation or Bladed Armor (which are the two talents you would take points from, depending on whether you value AoE more than Single Target or vice versa).
Not only that but, in reality, it's less than a 73 dps gain since you have to factor in increased disease clipping, an extra half of a gcd each 20 seconds, etc.
So, yeah. Nope =(
Can someone told me if UH will be better dps than Blood in 3.2.2?
I dont wanna waste my badges if in 3.2.2 UH > Blood.
The gap between Blood and Unholy in 3.2.2 will be somewhat smaller than it is now (thanks in part to the Subversion buff and in part to the ArP nerf), but nothing significantly different. If you consider Blood the superior spec now, you still would post patch. Likewise, if you consider Unholy the superior spec now, you still would post patch.
Are we talking about a DPS gain switching to 17/0/54 right now in the Oblit gear we have (ArPen heavy)? Or is this a gain only after regearing to the new stat weights? I would prefer to switch sooner rather than later.
Right now. I run with something like 360 ArP, and it was a net gain for me.
The ArP weights between the the two specs are actually pretty similar. You have to remember that the EP values I did for 17/0/54 are post 3.2.2 (since, at the time they were done, no one was looking at it being a spec for live), meaning they already have the ArP nerf in place, while the previously-existing ones are pre 3.2.2, so they are pre-ArP nerf. Thus the gap - which isn't large to begin with - is even smaller than it appears.
For technicality's/completion's sake, I suppose I could come up with the current 17/0/54 weights, but with the patch in a week or two, it doesn't quite seem worth the effort. One can easily undue the ArP nerf manually (simply multiply it by ~13.6% since it goes down 12% in value, so 88 x 1.136 -> 100). The only other stat which would change noticeably is crit - those stat weights do assume a working 4p t9. If I did do it, it would be more for crit than for ArP.
Also, you may want to add Algalon to the "Abusing AMS" section of the OP. You can get a full RP bar by AMSing a cosmic smash on the melee— you need to be close to where it hits, but not so close as to get knocked up in the air. ~7 yards.
Ah, yes, I'll add Algalon. However, I consider it better to use AMS on star explosions, not Cosmic Smashes. It will give you a full RP bar all the same, except it is much less risky (and it is damage which you would have to take anyways, while Cosmic Smash is not, meaning using AMS on the former results in you requiring less healing).
The gap between Blood and Unholy in 3.2.2 will be somewhat smaller than it is now (thanks in part to the Subversion buff and in part to the ArP nerf), but nothing significantly different. If you consider Blood the superior spec now, you still would post patch. Likewise, if you consider Unholy the superior spec now, you still would post patch.
Also do not forget that blood will get Virulence sigil, which with a quick simulation test, seems to wield 200+ dps increase. But I fully agree that the Blood-Unholy situation will not change all that much.
With the new stat weights, this is the gear list I've generated for alliance, this is for 10 man/10 man hard/25 man and the 10 man/10 man hard/25 man/25 man hard sets:
Just wondering what the new rotation will mean for something like [Glyph of Blood Strike]. There are enough debuffs in game to give it pretty much a 100% uptime from what I understand. I haven't played with any theorycrafting or PTR testing, so I don't know how much dps Blood Strike accounts for in the new rotation. Any thoughts
Just wondering what the new rotation will mean for something like [Glyph of Blood Strike]. There are enough debuffs in game to give it pretty much a 100% uptime from what I understand. I haven't played with any theorycrafting or PTR testing, so I don't know how much dps Blood Strike accounts for in the new rotation. Any thoughts
We went over this a bit earlier in the thread— basically you need a Frostfire mage (not an optimal spec) or a feral tank. Even then it's a marginal gain.
Ah, yes, I'll add Algalon. However, I consider it better to use AMS on star explosions, not Cosmic Smashes. It will give you a full RP bar all the same, except it is much less risky (and it is damage which you would have to take anyways, while Cosmic Smash is not, meaning using AMS on the former results in you requiring less healing).
Fair enough. At least in my guild, I've been having trouble getting the timing right to mitigate it. If the star-breaker gets a lucky crit it goes off too early and I end up eating it anyway. Maybe we're just noobs. Anyway, I've found Cosmic Smashes to be a more reliable way to generate RP on cooldown. You're right though, I should probably be more focused on making the healers' lives easier.
Anyway, I'll be giving the new spec a whirl and possibly get some parses up.
Just wondering what the new rotation will mean for something like [Glyph of Blood Strike]. There are enough debuffs in game to give it pretty much a 100% uptime from what I understand. I haven't played with any theorycrafting or PTR testing, so I don't know how much dps Blood Strike accounts for in the new rotation. Any thoughts
You would have to loss either Ghoul (bad move since it is the best) or Dark Death (it is guaranteed damage even if you attack something not slowed by a Druid or FF Mage (not such a good spec)).
Icy Touch is required for the 10 second rotation.
I tried that new Unholy spec and it did turn out to be more damage than the old Obliterate spec (but not by much). It was strange at first doing the 10 second rotation, but whatever does that most damage is important!
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I tried that new Unholy spec and it did turn out to be more damage than the old Obliterate spec (but not by much). It was strange at first doing the 10 second rotation, but whatever does that most damage is important!
I did as well, and noticed a (very) minor loss in DPS, however I assume this is a comfort/acclimation issue. I really don't like the 10 second rotation ^^; But alas, I either just need to get used to it, or pray they do some changes to make it so a 20 second one is superior again.
Gear Lists are interesting. Annoyed that I had already bought the legs for my four piece, as chest was the previous slot you wanted to go off-set for, but ah well.
Also found it interesting that [Justicebringer] was better than [Lothar's Edge] pre-25 HM, but I suppose there just isn't a way to get rid of enough hit to accommodate the latter.
In that BiS gear, you will want to be using Chaotic meta, for those curious. In the 10m/10m HM/25m list, you'll be wanting to use Relentless. Such a headache.
Originally Posted by frmorrison
You would have to loss either Ghoul (bad move since it is the best) or Dark Death (it is guaranteed damage even if you attack something not slowed by a Druid or FF Mage (not such a good spec)).
Icy Touch is required for the 10 second rotation.
Actually, not quite. Glyph of Icy Touch is the weakest of the three - well, at least weaker than Dark Death (maybe not weaker than Ghoul in raw dps, but Ghoul has other factors to consider). Without GoIT, you can do 3.5 DCs per 20 seconds. Dark Death would add 15% damage to those - putting you at 4.025 DC damage. GoIT adds 20 RP per 20 seconds, which is half a DC, merely bringing it up to 4.000 DC damage (as you can't factor in GoDD when comparing which of the two you would go without).
So, IT actually isn't all that great. It's simply better than the alternatives - Unholy Blight and, yes, Blood Strike - but it is certainly not better than GoDD or GotG. It's not what makes the 10 second rotation so strong (although it obviously helps!).
So it seems there is A LOT more room for error with the new 17/0/54 spec. 10 second rotations mean less of a chance for you to make a rebound with, say, Blood Tap. On the other hand, things like fear and stuns won't be as damaging to your dps/rotation as with a 20 second rotation because you can clip the disease (whereas that may be a loss in potential dps for a 20 second rotation).
This Glyph of Icy Touch is only temporary though, right - at least until Glyph of Scourge Strike comes out. So then we will be back to our regular rotation (in terms of duration) after 3.2.2 hits?
No, Glyph of Icy Touch is not temporary. Glyph of Scourge Strike is inferior, even the new version. This rotation will be used until another spec wins out, which won't happen until something changes.
As Consider stated just before me, GoIT is needed due to the increase that it gives in runic power.
I ran this spec and rotation last night in a 25 man naxx. Was easily #1 dps overall and was top 3 dps for all bosses so I can attest to it being as good (if not better) than the current UH/Obli specs out there (I've ran both 0/17/54 and 3/13/55).
One thing I can say regarding the rotation is that it "feels" almost like a blood ratation in that the GCD's are very tight with little room for error. If you've ran as blood before though the timing comes pretty natural as you're rotations will be coming out in much of the same timing as bloods.
As for rotation, I found starting with IT worked best if you're going to be using a BT for anything (I'm looking at the Bone Shield changes come 3.2.2). As was stated before in this thread, by starting with IT you're actually gaining a GCD and since it's a 10 second rotation there's no need to worry about not getting the benifits of Ebon Plaguebringer for any of your IT's later in your rotation (after the inital IT). Also, one other piece of info to note is the fact that when you hit BT to use Bone Shield the death rune created by the BT will always be used with this rotation since both unholy runes are still on cooldown.
IT - PS - SS - BS - BS - DC - DC
For Gargoyle you can substitute a HoW in for a little extra Runic Power boost and still not mess up the timing of your rotation.
What's the optimal way to handle downtime or extra RP with this spec? I ran a VoA 10 with it last night, and I'd often find myself capped on RP with most or all of my runes up and time left on diseases (about 5 seconds). In this case, should we start back at the top of the rotation or dump down the RP and then kick back into the rotation?
What's the optimal way to handle downtime or extra RP with this spec? I ran a VoA 10 with it last night, and I'd often find myself capped on RP with most or all of my runes up and time left on diseases (about 5 seconds). In this case, should we start back at the top of the rotation or dump down the RP and then kick back into the rotation?
I would say dump the RP then just right back into the rotation.
What's the optimal way to handle downtime or extra RP with this spec? I ran a VoA 10 with it last night, and I'd often find myself capped on RP with most or all of my runes up and time left on diseases (about 5 seconds). In this case, should we start back at the top of the rotation or dump down the RP and then kick back into the rotation?
As Consder put it in the opening post:
a priority sequence of apply diseases (PS/IT), dump RP if it's maxed (DC), use your FU strike (SS), use Blood Runes (BS), dump RP if it's not maxed (DC), and then use Horn (HoW).
So basically dump if you're maxed RP, but only if both diseases are up on the target. I've been trying the rotation too recently, and it seems pretty easy to do, I found that I rarely needed to use HoW in the rotation as I got RP from other sources (AMS / talented heals).
I see you updated Part I, but in Part IV in the OP, "As of patch 3.2.0, Obliterate is superior to Scourge Strike in terms of PvE raid dps." isn't accurate anymore. Anyway, I hope GC doesn't revert the buff to Subversion, since SS is better than Oblit now.
General question, does ArP/Sunder affect the damage from Blood-caked Blade?
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
There's an asterisk explaining that SS may be viable with the 17/0/54. I didn't want to just go ahead and completely declare SS to be optimal now until some actual parses (and not just sims, as valuable as they are) proved its superiority. I can change the wording of that opening lines to say something along the linse of "As of patch 3.2.0, Obliterate has generally been accepted as being superior in terms of PvE raid dps". Or "For the majority of patch 3.2.0, Obliterate has been shown to be superior to Scourge Strike in terms of PvE raid dps - however, with the recent discovery of 17/0/54, this may not necessarily hold true. More testing is required" etc, etc. I'll toy with it after my raid, if you would like.
I finally got to test 17/0/54 in raid environment last night. We did a 10-man Coliseum clear and first half of Ulduar (hard mode). Unfortunately I got a slight crash in middle so no parses survived to be shown. However, from what Recap could tell me it looked like I gained 100 to 150 DPS. Considering the normal inconsistency of DPS from raid to raid and boss to boss and how much DPS values fluctuate from raid to raid I can say at least didn't lose any DPS from my old 0/17/54 spec. I was still pretty much #1 in AoE fights and #2 in single-target, topped only by our combat rogue. What I did notice, however, was that 17/0/54 has several qualities which really make it shine when compared to Obliterate spec:
1) 10 second rotation instead of 20 seconds. This makes shifting between targets easier without messing up rotation and losing DPS. This really shows in Gormok, Jaraxxus and Anub'arak where you have to switch for a fast add killing and then return to boss again.
2) Refreshing diseases early. Disease clipping and refreshing very early actually starts to benefit you in fights like Gormok, Twin Jormungar, Icehowl and Jaraxxus. A stun here or there, swithcing to adds for a few seconds or even having to moce fully away from boss for s few seconds don't hurt your (and your raids) DPS nearly as easily as in 20 second obliterate rotation as your diseases are likely to last through the short break and be still on their last tics when you are free to apply them again.
I've arrived at several conclusions after running many simulations.
Without 4t9, dropping reaping/epidemic is not worth the AE and quality of life tradeoffs. The DPS gain is miniscule at under 0.3% (20DPS). Interestingly, dropping points in necrosis/desolation for dark conviction (an alternative 17/0/54) sims as a minor single-target DPS gain. Even without 4t9 it has a 0.7% (~50DPS) advantage. All of this is single-target only; AE is crippled without epidemic and death runes to keep D&D up.
With 4t9, the 17/0/54 build dropping epidemic/reaping reaches a 0.95% (70DPS) single-target advantage over plain old 12/0/59 and 0.4% (30DPS) over the alternative 17/0/54 with epidemic/reaping/dark conviction mentioned above. These are very small margins. Even assuming the sim is absolutely spot-on accurate, a 30DPS loss over a 100 hour period when you're maintaining over 7000DPS can be seen as a rounding error. Dark conviction is definitely worthwhile with 4t9 as there is no tradeoff.
Based on these results I don't see any compelling arguments to compromise my character's flexibility and AE capability dropping reaping and epidemic for very small single target only DPS gains.
Without 4t9, dropping reaping/epidemic is not worth the AE and quality of life tradeoffs. The DPS gain is miniscule at under 0.3% (20DPS). Interestingly, dropping points in necrosis/desolation for dark conviction (an alternative 17/0/54) sims as a minor single-target DPS gain. Even without 4t9 it has a 0.7% (~50DPS) advantage. All of this is single-target only; AE is crippled without epidemic and death runes to keep D&D up.
Huh? The only situation where reaping benefits keeping DnD up is if for some reason you only have your two death runes and one other F or U. Considering you use them in pairs, this really shouldn't happen. Reaping's main function is to let you sub a SS/Oblit for your PS/IT every other rune cooldown.
The cookie cutter 17/0/54 in the OP does take dark conviction, unless you mean not dropping reaping/epidemic (like this?)...
Regardless, it might be helpful to explain a bit more about your methodology (what were your priorities, what gear did you use, etc.), considering your numbers differ from what seems to be the general opinion.
I'm testing the new Scourge Strike 17/0/54 build with good results so far.
While the rotation is indeed a lot tighter and for people who havent played anything but the very forgiving unholy specs of days gone by might be a big change, it can still certainly deliver the goods.
WWS of last nights Col25 HC - Ignore faction champs as I was in Tank gear and specced for CC roles.
I'm finding working in Death and Decay and pestilence etc a lot easier to manage for some reason. Maybe it's because there arent Death Runes to confuse the matter.
Anyone 'on the fence' about making the change should give it a try. You are going to be doing it at patch anyway so at the very least, dual spec it and get some practice in.
Agreed with Halle. Nice job on the dps by the way. I respecced as well even though I was very hesitant. However, I don't see a loss in dps, and what's better is the rotation is much simpler now, both for AoE and single target. Subversion is nice to have, and nice to have DnD dropped without pulling much aggro. Even though the rotation seems tighter and more prone to error (less prone to recovery from that error rather), it actually isn't that bad. It's fast and RP generation (more death coils) is superb. Like Halle also said, it could just be the lack of death runes to complicate things.
I was first asked to post my results in the DW Thread. However with my results, i had to go here.
I used the following stats for my sims, difference only the weapons. 2H Ulduar-Set is a baseline, because I just needed the same stats, so i could get the difference between 2H and DW without looking at different stats.
With 4PCT9 I will not repeat the sims for specs D and E, as they are not really competitive and do not gain anything more from 4PCT9 as the other specs.
But why do i post my results here in the 2H Unholy Thread?
Whenever you get your hands on better 1H Weapons (Main Hand one Tier better, Offhand same ilvl as 2H) as you have a 2H weapon and don´t want to miss the Unholy-Playstyle, just switch to DW. Everything will be the same, except that you will do more dmg with DW.
Regarding DW: Spec B will be the overall winner, Spec C will be the winner, if you have 4PCT9. Whenever breaking 4PCT9 Spec B will become better again for DW.
With this in mind, why don´t we just have one Thread for Unholy DPS (2H and DW), one for Frost DPS (DW, i think without 2H) and one Blood-DPS-Thread?
I think we should discuss the playstyle of the different specs (2H and DW) in the different Threads. Unholy plays the same, regardless of being 2H or DW, why should we go to another Thread to discuss this things?
Hence, should DW Unholy ever be better as 2h, would we close this thread and discuss Frost and Unholy - DPS in one Thread? I don´t think so...
Wait, wait - if you have better DW weapons than 2H weapons, DWing is better? =O
=p
The reason why Fargorm and I originally decided to do two seperate threads was because the playstyle/spec/gearing (specifically that of the DC spam build, which had been superior at the time) was quite different between Unholy DW and Unholy 2H. If that's no longer the case and the only (major) difference between the two is whether you equip a 2 hander or dual wield, I'ld be happy to revisit the issue. I really have no problem keeping it here.
It has never really been about the numbers, for that matter, although it is nice to see them so close (and unsurprising to see that 2H does still pull ahead - if only because of 2H specialization).
One of the questions which was brought up when discussing which thread to keep DW Unholy in was this: If someone is already specced for 2H Unholy dps, are they more likely to spec into DW Unholy dps or 2H Blood/Frost dps? Similarly, if someone is already specced for DW Frost dps, are they more likely to spec into DW Unholy dps, or 2H Frost dps?
That (aside from the numbers; if it was just a number game, we would only need one dps thread period) is the key question, in my opinion, in regards to this issue - and there's really no clear answer for everyone. If, however, that which separates 2H Unholy and DW Unholy is no longer playstyle but just gear, that certainly influences things.
Originally Posted by slant
I've arrived at several conclusions after running many simulations.
Without 4t9, dropping reaping/epidemic is not worth the AE and quality of life tradeoffs.
Although it is an AoE trade off, I would disagree a quality of life trade as well (or, if it is the latter, it's a positive one). A shorter rotation (if admittedly tighter) means it's easier to deal with target swapping, phase changes, plain screwing up and having to restart. It means less opportunity to screw up. It means you suffer less from stupid rng like getting frozen on Beasts or a Legion Flame on Jaraxxus. It means getting practice with a rotation you'll be using in 3.2.2, as it is definitely superior then, anyways.
I'ld consider all of this quality of life improvements, myself.
The DPS gain is miniscule at under 0.3% (20DPS).
A dps gain is a dps gain. That said, there is a reason I didn't just get rid of all the oblit info on the front page ^^.
I am curious though, what gear did you use to arrive at this number? The results I got in my testing showed it to scale better with gear, meaning that when I did it with a relatively lackluster item set (the ulduar 2h default set, for example), it was little more than a dps wash, unlike doing it with a CC set.
Interestingly, dropping points in necrosis/desolation for dark conviction (an alternative 17/0/54) sims as a minor single-target DPS gain. Even without 4t9 it has a 0.7% (~50DPS) advantage.
Dark Conviction is not superior to Desolation (without 4t9, anyways, and even with it, matters are close). This makes me severely doubt your math and the entirety of your post, more so than I already did. It doesn't take any amazing math skills or multiple sims to know/show that 1% dmg to ~85% of your damage is superior to 1% crit to ~65% of your damage. Even if Dark Conviction pre-4pt9 was better, it wouldn't be by a gap as large as 50 dps.
All of this is single-target only; AE is crippled without epidemic and death runes to keep D&D up
Huh? All the loss of epidemic does is cost you 1 BB per 20 seconds (which has already been discussed), yes, yes. However, unless I'm missing something painfully obvious or I have been doing something amazingly wrong, I don't see how death runes help keep DnD up.
Based on these results I don't see any compelling arguments to compromise my character's flexibility and AE capability dropping reaping and epidemic for very small single target only DPS gains.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with that - I'm sure many will agree, at least in the current patch - but I think you are overblowing the flexibility drop (since in my opinion - and seemingly the opinion of everyone who has posted about trying the spec - it's a gain in this regard), the AE capability (a loss, yes, but only by a 3 BBs per minute), and the single target dps gain (which seems as if you are using a fairly weak gear set to get these numbers because, otherwise, I don't see how you get the gap so small).
I do wish patch day was here already. Would simplify things so much, and would let me go ahead and clean up the front page. Quite annoying juggling both live and ptr speculation at once. But, alas, what can you do. Maybe tomorrow.
09/19/09, 12:20 PM
