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Old 01/19/10, 6:55 PM   #2236
Larisroth
Piston Honda
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Thaurissan
So yeah I ran some sims to confirm my theorycrafting.

1) A GoD build pulls level with the standard reaping rotation for single target damage only in the very best of gear.

2) Twisting your diseases is worth around 100 dps to a reaping build. It is also possibly to do it with a non-reaping build, but you have harder timing issues. In general the timing is more crucial than that of the GoD build, as you need to hit your diseases within half a second. (Normal diseases get 90% of the ticks of GoD diseases, twisted diseases get 97.5%) If you have a second DK in the raid you're likely to still have RoR on most of the BP ticks)

3) All the numbers are surprising dependent on latency and the exact sequence of events. I'm not sure the simulator is a good model of what happens in the real world.

4) As mentioned in the previous post there can be a lot of free RP going around allowing you to eat up what free GCDs you have.

ETA:
WRT hit rating and BiS gear. With the way the stat bonuses work, socketing a str-crit gem in a yellow socket to get a +4 or +6 strength bonus is an upgrade even if you were hit capped, in our BiS gear we have many good yellow gem sockets. As hit rating is considered the best stat as long as you are under the cap it makes sense to swap some of those gems for a str-hit gem. Coupled with the available hit enchants it's quite easy to reach the hit cap even if the base gear is low in hit. Expertise kind of works in the reverse way, as when you're socketing for expertise you're giving up some strength.

In that sense when I'm putting together a set of gear, I pretty much decide on what caps I want to reach, and weight the capable stats at whatever the best stat that shares the same base gem colour with it is worth.

As for orc vs Undead: in decent (early ICC) gear your ghoul alone will do more than 1K dps, and your pets around 1.5K dps total. Blood fury averages out at about 40 AP. And the expertise is worth about 40 rating. So the pet bonus is worth about 75 dps, blood fury about 25 dps and the expertise about 50 dps if you can use it optimally. Whether that's worth the money to change over is up to you.

Last edited by Larisroth : 01/19/10 at 10:10 PM.

The feral druid is a different beast altogether.

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Old 01/20/10, 1:44 AM   #2237
doubledown
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Turalyon
The weapon recommendations in the BiS lists seem off. Using 2xT10 and 2xT9 and Bryntroll comes out well ahead of Cryptmaker and ~150dps ahead of Shadow's Edge. (Using the latest version of Kahorie's Sim).

I thought perhaps gear scaling and 4xT10 would cause the other weapons to pull ahead, so I simmed using the stats from a gearset of 4xT10 (Sanctified, non-heroic), ilvl258/264 offpieces, with DC and DBW trinkets. Bryntroll was still in the lead by 100dps.

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Old 01/20/10, 6:14 AM   #2238
dr_AllCOM3
Great Tiger
 
dr_AllCOM3's Avatar
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Blutkessel (EU)
Originally Posted by Savetheday View Post
The parse shows SS being over a 3rd of my dmg with only one empowered. For this reasoning, i'm considering dropping glyph of the ghoul this week for Blood Queen to pick-up glyph of disease. SS should have ridiculous scaling factors on the fight so getting in as many as possible I'd assume would give the best benefits.
SS does not seem to have any extra scaling from the vampire buff at all. Several logs show both parts doing the same damage.


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Old 01/20/10, 6:22 AM   #2239
Fugazor
King Hippo
 
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Orc Hunter
 
Chamber of Aspects (EU)
Originally Posted by doubledown View Post
The weapon recommendations in the BiS lists seem off. Using 2xT10 and 2xT9 and Bryntroll comes out well ahead of Cryptmaker and ~150dps ahead of Shadow's Edge. (Using the latest version of Kahorie's Sim).
I can confirm that, got same result in my gear and also with T10.251 and T10.264 templates.

I also noticed that non-reaping build did same (or more) dps than reaping one until BiS. Sim bug? Using 1.2.0.5, Unholy priority, no intro.

Last edited by Fugazor : 01/20/10 at 6:35 AM.

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Old 01/20/10, 6:59 AM   #2240
Nyth_
Piston Honda
 
Troll Hunter
 
Moonglade (EU)
Originally Posted by Fugazor View Post
I can confirm that, got same result in my gear and also with T10.251 and T10.264 templates.

I also noticed that non-reaping build did same (or more) dps than reaping one until BiS. Sim bug? Using 1.2.0.5, Unholy priority, no intro.
Maybe the sims haven't incorporated the changes to bryntroll yet. Other than that I have no idea.

Also Bornakk made a comment earlier this week about a nerf to all PPM mechanics, especially melee trinkets and weaponprocs like Fallen Crusader. Anyone know exactly what changed ?
Source

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Old 01/20/10, 8:34 AM   #2241
Savetheday
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Ysondre
Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3 View Post
SS does not seem to have any extra scaling from the vampire buff at all. Several logs show both parts doing the same damage.
It's not double dipping apparently. This doesn't make much sense to me, however it might be working as intended since DK's would be pretty absurd with that debuff.

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Old 01/20/10, 8:50 AM   #2242
Akheva
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Andorhal
Originally Posted by firesofdusk View Post
Hey guys,

I was lookin at the BiS lists and was wondering why the hit rating on all these lists are so low. Unless I am making a mistake, the list "All currently known loot, sans 25m heroic loot and Shadowmourne" has only 183 hit rating (5.58%). This comes from the gloves, bracers, and ring.

Looking at the stat weights, hit rating is the highest rated stat before 8% hit. I understand aiming for 7% hit so that a draenei can push you to 8%, but why do the BiS lists have such low hit rating? Are there any other raid debuffs that affect our hit rating on bosses? Virulence only talks about our spells, but not abilities, so I assume it does not apply to abilities such as scourge strike.

Thanks for the help
-Dusk

P.S. Thanks for the guide Consider. Very helpful indeed.
You have to factor in Boomkins and SPs give 3% chance to hit to raids when speced correctly. This is pretty big and all raids should have at least one of them.

Originally Posted by jbs89 View Post
I am currently and UD Frost DK, but it seems that it is time to switch back to my levelling spec, Unholy... Right now I am really liking UD and was all set to switch to Orc last night, but now that I think about it I really want to stay a zombie!

What are the DPS gains from Orc?

Blood Fury has no healing penalty, so it is now viable for raids, it does 322 AP for 15 sec every 120 seconds. ( I believe I have this correct): How much DPS are we actually going to be seeing/damage done? I have guesstimated it to be a constant bonus of about ~30 AP, but that is only if you can DPS for the full duration.

Expertise I beleive is +5 or something? Is this anything noticeable, besides on paper?

Pet damage increased by 5%.. while this sounded like all I needed to switch me to an Orc, I thought about it, and if your pet is pulling 400 DPS (completely arbitrary), it is only 20 DPS, and stays low double digits even if your pet is pulling like 600 DPS! (which I doubt any Ghoul is doing)

This has led me to beleive that changing to Orc will not be the substantial DPS increase that I was about to rush into... I don't know how AP factors into DK DPS, but as I see it, were talking +100 dps in a perfect scenario... not sure if its worth $25 and losing my zombie with bones poking out and the works..
Well as far as orcs go, Blood Fury is a nice little dps increase especially when popped with other things, such as BL, Haste Pots, Garg, etc...

The +5 expertise is pretty big when you consider you are now looking at only needing 21 expertise (173 expertise rating). Thats a savings of 42 expertise rating... *correct me if my numbers are wrong*

The ghoul issue. My ghoul does an average of 1k dps on boss' he's allowed to sit on and just beat up. So taking a 5% increase is pretty damn good. Thats a extra 50DPS + considering other procs buffs ect.. that might be going around.

Over all Orcs > All DPS wise, you gain so much more overall that it makes Orcs that much better then the rest of the classes.

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Old 01/20/10, 9:03 AM   #2243
Mendoza
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
<XW>
Neptulon (EU)
Originally Posted by Savetheday View Post
It's not double dipping apparently. This doesn't make much sense to me, however it might be working as intended since DK's would be pretty absurd with that debuff.
I think you've answered your own question there. If it was double dipping they'd hotfix it pretty damn quick once unholy DKs were doing 20% (or whatever) more damage than everyone else as a vampire. I think they've probably seen enough SS scaling issues to be able to preempt one as obvious as that.

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Old 01/20/10, 9:11 AM   #2244
Nahela
Piston Honda
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Bleeding Hollow
Originally Posted by Savetheday View Post
It's not double dipping apparently. This doesn't make much sense to me, however it might be working as intended since DK's would be pretty absurd with that debuff.
I can confirm this as well. In 10-man my biggest phys-portion crit was 16.7k with the largest shadow portion being 18k. Really not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but I can't say I wasn't a little disappointed considering the design of the ability was officially stated to intentionally double-dip on things like that.

EDIT: Actually there's already a great variety of logs available from all 3 specs to peruse on WMO WMO DK Listings

Last edited by Nahela : 01/20/10 at 9:16 AM.

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Old 01/20/10, 9:27 AM   #2245
Coldplague
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Zul'Jin
Originally Posted by firesofdusk View Post
"All currently known loot, sans 25m heroic loot and Shadowmourne" has only 183 hit rating (5.58%).
The setup also has 8 yellow sockets.


Originally Posted by Akheva View Post
You have to factor in Boomkins and SPs give 3% chance to hit to raids when speced correctly. This is pretty big and all raids should have at least one of them.
That only counts towards spell hit.

Edit: Because I can't count.

Last edited by Coldplague : 01/20/10 at 10:20 PM.

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Old 01/20/10, 11:27 AM   #2246
weirdaljr
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Llane
Hey guys, Just not sure if my math is wrong here or this is just overlooked due to better itemized options available, but shouldn't [Vengeance of the Forsaken] be at least somewhere in that top 17 list from the OP on this thread? I am thinking this only if all of the expertise on it doesn't bring you over the soft cap, which is the same premise the hit based trinkets are listed.

Thanks.

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Old 01/20/10, 12:08 PM   #2247
dr_AllCOM3
Great Tiger
 
dr_AllCOM3's Avatar
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Blutkessel (EU)
Originally Posted by weirdaljr View Post
Hey guys, Just not sure if my math is wrong here or this is just overlooked due to better itemized options available, but shouldn't [Vengeance of the Forsaken] be at least somewhere in that top 17 list from the OP on this thread? I am thinking this only if all of the expertise on it doesn't bring you over the soft cap, which is the same premise the hit based trinkets are listed.
No. Exp is not needed that badly and the use effect takes too long to stack with a 2h weapon.


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Old 01/20/10, 1:17 PM   #2248
Buffie
Von Kaiser
 
Buffie's Avatar
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Akama
Originally Posted by Coldplague View Post
The setup also has 7 yellow sockets.
I think this is something that gets overlooked too often. I've been playing around with rawr & finding that I can minimize wasted item points on hit over cap by dropping a piece of hit gear & gemming for hit. Gaining hit 10-20 rating at a time will allow you to get a lot closer to the cap without going over than trying to get capped using gear with 50+ hit per item. This will also allow you to grab a socket bonus or two that you may otherwise skip. All that combined with the added benefit of being more flexible in what gear you can use make gemming hit an attractive option. I generally hear about gemming hit being a "bad" thing to do, but unless I'm missing something, I'm pretty sure it's a more efficient way to go about getting capped.

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Old 01/20/10, 2:06 PM   #2249
Breklin
Von Kaiser
 
Breklin's Avatar
 
Worgen Priest
 
Lightbringer
In reviewing our parse from last night I noticed that neither my ghoul nor our other DK's ghoul were receiving Leader of the Pack on several fights. Has anyone else experienced this? Could it possibly be required for the druid to re-shift once a new ghoul is summoned in order for them to receive the buff?

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Old 01/20/10, 3:15 PM   #2250
doubledown
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Turalyon
Originally Posted by Fugazor View Post
I can confirm that, got same result in my gear and also with T10.251 and T10.264 templates.

I also noticed that non-reaping build did same (or more) dps than reaping one until BiS. Sim bug? Using 1.2.0.5, Unholy priority, no intro.
I was using an Unholy rotation rather than priority, but glad to see this confirmed. There's a difference in the way the various Sims are actually modeling things, certainly the Bryntroll proc.

In my current gear:
Using Kahorie's 1.2.0.5: Bryntroll > Shadow's Edge by and Non-Reaping > Reaping (Bryntroll proc ~5% total damage)

Using Team Robot Sim: Shadow's Edge > Bryntroll and Reaping > Non-Reaping (Bryntroll proc ~3% total damage)

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