Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 152

Velk · 01/21/10, 5:34 PM

Originally Posted by -highwind-

Dark conviction is, if you believe the original poster, the weakest single target talent (which is atleast the statement why the reaping built loses 3 points out of it and not, for example, out of necrosis) and without 4pt9 it doesnt hold any aditional ae-value either, does it ?

Death and Decay crits even without 4pct9, so no.

Consider · 01/22/10, 3:46 AM

Some responses to a variety of the recent posts:

There's a reason I don't specifically list a "general" spec, and have gone out of my way to avoid doing so: The fact is, such a spec is completely subjective; how much single target dps should you sacrifice for AoE dps or vice versa? It's not something that can be objectively answered, and then numbers can prove. Numbers can prove a specific single target spec or a specific AoE spec, however. At any rate, DC beats Necrosis on AoE dps even without 4P T9, for the above poster's reason, so 12/0/59 isn't really any more "general". It simply makes different trade-offs. Your opinion as to whether or not those are worth it.

I addressed the tiny abom ranking in some PMs, but to put it briefly here: initial numbers I had received were putting the proc at 3%, not 2%, and if the latter is indeed correct, I can easily adjust it. Even at 3%, it's a horrible trinket, regardless of how it appears on that chart (which is simply a ranking of EP values). Passive hit (which is always a poor choice on trinkets, but worse yet, it has passive hit less than it should relative to its iLvl) and a proc no stronger on a single target (and weaker, in fact, on multiple targets) than that of a trinket 19 ilvls its junior?

On another note, the latest version of the simulator seems to be overvaluing Bryntroll's proc, although I haven't yet been able to pinpoint how so, exactly. The proc should be approximately ~3.5% dps at current gear levels, not the 4-5% the sim says. In a minute, you get approximately 24 auto-attacks, 7 BCB procs, and then 30 yellow proc opportunities (2 per PS, 1 per IT, 1 per BS, and 1 per SS). With an 11.33% chance to proc, that's 7 procs a minute. At an average proc damage of 3000, that's 350 dps. Very simple math, and any number of parses could be linked to prove this number to be more or less exact (RNG variation and such aside, of course). What more is that if you test Reaping verse non-Reaping in the sim, you'll notice that the amount of damage the proc does doesn't change, while it should (non-Reaping will get 3 less proc opportunities per minute). In this case, the sim is making a mistake, not me.

With that in mind, and with the other reasons I stated in the FAQ, I am completely confident when stating that Cryptmaker/Shadow's Edge are superior to Bryntroll in BiS (and at points before that, for that matter).

panta · 01/22/10, 5:02 AM

Originally Posted by Consider

On another note, the latest version of the simulator seems to be overvaluing Bryntroll's proc, although I haven't yet been able to pinpoint how so, exactly. The proc should be approximately ~3.5% dps at current gear levels, not the 4-5% the sim says. In a minute, you get approximately 24 auto-attacks, 7 BCB procs, and then 30 yellow proc opportunities (2 per PS, 1 per IT, 1 per BS, and 1 per SS). With an 11.33% chance to proc, that's 7 procs a minute. At an average proc damage of 3000, that's 350 dps. Very simple math, and any number of parses could be linked to prove this number to be more or less exact (RNG variation and such aside, of course). What more is that if you test Reaping verse non-Reaping in the sim, you'll notice that the amount of damage the proc does doesn't change, while it should (non-Reaping will get 3 less proc opportunities per minute). In this case, the sim is making a mistake, not me..

I would like to confirm the percentage of bryntolls proc. My guildmate has the bryntoll and as I was looking at parses from festergut (basical standing behind the boss and licking his boots through the whole fight which lasts about five minutes), the proc indeed did 5,1% of his overall damage to this boss...which surprised me quite a lot.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Here is the parse from the bossfight.

Consider · 01/22/10, 5:14 AM

Bryntroll is not guaranteed or anything; there will be RNG to it. That guy did a total of 87 melee (48 + 39), 30 BCB, 53 SS, 29 BS, 15 IT, and 16 PS (thus 32 chances). That's a total of 87 + 30 + 53 + 29 + 15 + 32 = 246 proc opportunities, which should, on average, give 28 procs. He got 34, or 20% more.

That, and there's the fact that he did (relatively speaking) low dps. As has been stated many times, Bryntroll's proc gives a flat dps value (about 350, as shown above). At a gear level such as mine, that's about 3.5%. At his gear level, doing 8.4k dps, that's 4.2%. Then when you consider he got 20% more procs than averages would give him... there's your 5%.

Velk · 01/22/10, 6:35 AM

Originally Posted by Consider

On another note, the latest version of the simulator seems to be overvaluing Bryntroll's proc, although I haven't yet been able to pinpoint how so, exactly. The proc should be approximately ~3.5% dps at current gear levels, not the 4-5% the sim says.

While I can't argue your reasoning, a quick flick through world of logs 25man saurfang parses for unholy dks shows 4.4%, 4.5%, 4.5%, 4.7% for life drain, with dates that are after the proc nerf.

Savetheday · 01/22/10, 8:14 AM

Originally Posted by Velk

While I can't argue your reasoning, a quick flick through world of logs 25man saurfang parses for unholy dks shows 4.4%, 4.5%, 4.5%, 4.7% for life drain, with dates that are after the proc nerf.

RNG is RNG.

That's a very small sample of the very top parses. That could be a reason why those parses are on top.(not to discredit other's parses)

Valtiel · 01/22/10, 8:16 AM

Looking over WMO, it really seems that Consider's 3.5% extimate works extremely well as an expected minimum contribution. I've browsed around 50 logs and I would say the most conservative approach is that you should expect at least 3.5% dmg coming from that, and then up to 4.7-4.8% when you "win the lottery".

Of course moving to lower dps outputs inflates the contribution of the weapon.

Valtiel · 01/22/10, 8:20 AM

Originally Posted by Savetheday

RNG is RNG.

That's a very small sample of the very top parses. That could be a reason why those parses are on top.(not to discredit other's parses)

If there's something that the procc doesn't do is scaling with higher dps. Top parses don't get higher dps values because they land more skills, they do by generally landing perfect rotations and having bigger hits on the abilities they land (gear). Since the procc doesn't scale with your stats, theorycally the higher dps you're pushing, the less it will contribute to your overall dps.

That's why it's particularly interesting to see it contribute for that much dps on those parses.

To give another example, if you look at the recount screenshots posted by arena players using Bryntoll, it can be up to 20% of their damage output. The % contribution of the procc is inversely proportional to the dps output of the player. A strong contribution in top parses is an argument for the procc, not against.

Savetheday · 01/22/10, 8:47 AM

Originally Posted by Valtiel

If there's something that the procc doesn't do is scaling with higher dps. Top parses don't get higher dps values because they land more skills, they do by generally landing perfect rotations and having bigger hits on the abilities they land (gear). Since the procc doesn't scale with your stats, theorycally the higher dps you're pushing, the less it will contribute to your overall dps.

That's why it's particularly interesting to see it contribute for that much dps on those parses.

To give another example, if you look at the recount screenshots posted by arena players using Bryntoll, it can be up to 20% of their damage output. The % contribution of the procc is inversely proportional to the dps output of the player. A strong contribution in top parses is an argument for the procc, not against.

Yes, however it wasn't the percentage of dmg you're looking for in those parses. You're looking at the proc rate. Looking at dougals parse his bryn'troll proc over 15% of the time and accounted for 4.2% of his dmg. Slightly higher then the 11.5% and 3.5% Consider claimed.

edit:

link for clarification:
WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay

Just took a random parse in the top 20 saurfang parses that included bryntroll.

Velk · 01/22/10, 8:48 AM

Originally Posted by Savetheday

RNG is RNG.

That's a very small sample of the very top parses. That could be a reason why those parses are on top.(not to discredit other's parses)

Actually, there's an even easier explanation - I am idiot. WoL shows the percentage of an ability against damage done by the player alone, it doesn't include pets. The 4.5% there is ~ 3.5% overall.

Valtiel · 01/22/10, 8:58 AM

Originally Posted by Savetheday

Yes, however it wasn't the percentage of dmg you're looking for in those parses. You're looking at the proc rate. Looking at dougals parse his bryn'troll proc over 15% of the time and accounted for 4.2% of his dmg. Slightly higher then the 11.5% and 3.5% Consider claimed.

edit:

link for clarification:
WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay

Just took a random parse in the top 20 saurfang parses that included bryntroll.

The bottom line is, Consider's evaluation is essentially correct and can be safely used for the extimated dps contribution of the weapon. The actual benefit will be probably a bit better for most players right now, due to gear or lower dps outputs, but Bryn's procc will definitely devalue with time, so in BiS sets it won't be as prominent as it is now.

It's certainly a spectacular weapon for "average" players.

Lamperouqe · 01/23/10, 7:32 AM

The reason why Kahorie's sim gives me higher DPS with "retry" on Horn in the rotation checked (3 DPS), is because apparently sometimes the ability is still on CD when the sim reaches Horn in the cycle. This little delay on the use of this skill on retry makes me lose 18 Scourge Strikes and 21 Death Coils in 100 hours, but gives my diseases more ticks since the fraction of time wasted waiting for Horn CD delays the reapplication of my diseases. For me using Horn on retry gives 102 more FF ticks and 136 more BP ticks in 100 hours. Seems like the time given for disease ticks is a 3 DPS gain for me over the lost SS' and DC's. However, since I doubt anyone uses his Horn on that point every time in his cycle, the EP values are off when calculated using this rotation.

I'm sorry if I'm wrong somewhere or this has already been adressed, but I see the rotation using Horn on retry being approved as the one to be used. It gives the best results on the sim, but we shouldn't be using Horn like that when actually playing the game, especially when there are other sources to gain RP from. I suggest removing the "retry" from Horn in the rotation for more accurate results.

Sinlore · 01/23/10, 11:39 PM

Hello, I was currently talking to a guildy who told me that the stat weights were not valid, because it scales by ilvl. Can anyone please explain to me why stats change from ilvl to ilvl.

He claims that this is not accurate because ilvl is irrelevant in stats, and linked me to the blood stat weights saying "SEE they don't use ilvl why does unholy."

I am pretty sure I understand that ilvl matters because at higher ilvls certain gear is prioritized more towards stats other than hit or exp, but I would like a more formal explanation. Thank you for your time.

Deathgrip · 01/24/10, 2:26 AM

Originally Posted by Sinlore

Hello, I was currently talking to a guildy who told me that the stat weights were not valid, because it scales by ilvl. Can anyone please explain to me why stats change from ilvl to ilvl.

He claims that this is not accurate because ilvl is irrelevant in stats, and linked me to the blood stat weights saying "SEE they don't use ilvl why does unholy."

I am pretty sure I understand that ilvl matters because at higher ilvls certain gear is prioritized more towards stats other than hit or exp, but I would like a more formal explanation. Thank you for your time.

Your guildie is basically saying that weather reports calculated by the most powerful computers are wrong because his barometer at home doesn't require the use of a detailed atmospheric model...

If you care to take a look at both Blood and Unholy threads you'll notice a big difference between the two in terms of theorycrafting depth. In a nutshell, if Blood's thread have a static stat weight table it only show that noone over there took the time to compute the numbers at different item levels.

Stat weights are not scaling with iLvl. They are correlated to iLvl.
When your average iLvl grows, your stats change. You get more of some stats (Str for instance) and sometimes less of other stats like haste and +hit.
As a result, your damage related talents/abilities evolve. Some will contribute more and others will contribute less and, in the end, the individual impact of each and every stat changes with every new item that you equip.
And it doesn't only apply to stats that "cap" such as expertise. It applies to all stats

The iLvl related stat weights table computed by Consider is superior to any "static" stat weight table because it gives you an idea of how the value of stats will evolve as you upgrade your gear. But they are just examples and the simulator allows you to compute YOUR stat weight table.

I also have guildies who don't visit Elitist Jerk and believe that it makes them BETTER players beause theorycrafting is *just* simulation and that no simulation can reflect the real world.
Down the road it leads them to ignore models that are, for instance, 95% accurate in favor of gut feeling, old data/legends, empirical tests or things such as "hmmm....I have the impression that this new trinket doesn't proc much"

It's the same with science in general unfortunately...

Spuddelkopf · 01/24/10, 4:18 AM

Over in the Frost DPS thread I read something that might also be interesting to some Unholy players.

If you apply diseases while having a cinderglacier proc (which uses up only one charge - for Icy Touch - and can therefore also be done after having used one charge if you PS before IT) then the diseases will tick for 20% more damage for their duration.

But what is the most interesting: If you use Glyph of Disease then you can roll the 20% stronger diseases! (And no, this was not fixed. They only fixed AP rolling on diseases but not +%dmg modifiers. At least as far as I know.) So if you use GoD (and maybe this makes GoD better than GoDD in single target, too - at least in some fights) maybe it would be a good idea to start a boss fight with a cinderglacier weapon until you have a proc, then apply diseases and swap back to your normal Fallen Crusader weapon, rolling stronger diseases for the rest of the fight.