Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 158

Silarn · 01/28/10, 6:18 PM

Well, due to the way SS works, with the Shadow portion based on the Physical portion, 2/2 Two-Hand Spec adds ~5% to your SS alone, whereas 10% shadow only applies to the shadow portion of SS, making it a 5% increase overall. Add additional AP and Crit to that, and it adds up. Your numbers from your second parse are a bit skewed because you have Bryntroll, increasing the effectiveness of that spec by adding additional shadow damage, albeit only slightly.

The only average damage I actually see going up a significant amount in the second parse (the rest being the same or lower) is Death Coil. (Bryntroll aside.)

But I imagine the discrepancy here is likely due to the fact that you did not have your Ghoul out for the first parse.

eventually · 01/28/10, 6:22 PM

Originally Posted by Complicated

Hey guys,

I know back when 3.2 came out the suggested spec was 0/10/61 once gear was good enough.
Now I've missed the entire ToC content and all patches and related theorycrafts, I'm wondering at what point we reverted back to a 17/0/54 format ? (searched this entire post for the answer in vain).

While SS got changed to be half physical I still find alot of my damage comes from frost and shadow sources [~50%] (mainly Death Coil in the AMS friendly ICC fights incl constant rejuv).

So just for fun and tests I decided to roll with a 1/10/60 spec like so: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

The results were surprising to say the least, here I got 2 parses with identical gear and buffs on Festergut 25:

14/0/57
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
(forgot ghoul because I was switching specs for trash)

1/10/60
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

So if you calculate the ghoul in there both specs seem to be worthy of eachother or am I missing something?

Complex

edit: changed log

Complicated · 01/28/10, 6:29 PM

Originally Posted by eventually

Nvm! Blighted spores not added

Hehe yeah, sorry about the confusion was changing the parses just this second.

To me it looks like fights where you can utilise AMS to its max and there is alot of range involved (pretty much every ICC fight so far excluding Saurfang) this spec seems to be putting out more effective dps... Atleast with a Bryntroll setup.

I'd say at 264+ itemlevel range with the massive amount of ArmorPen. and a slower weapon, this spec will be outdated and 14/0/57 will be the clear winner.

Deadline · 01/28/10, 7:08 PM

Originally Posted by Shrakz

Reaping Vs ReapingLess with 2pc T10:
Here are the Sims I ran with the stats/gear currently on my armory : The rotations are the default ones provided in the Sim for both specs. Any thoughts ?

Edit: Template in reaping table indicates 17-00-54 but the spec was modified manually before the simulation to 14-00-57

Remember, for the Reaping rotation, you need to use the one Consider has posted at the bottom of the original post. As far as I'm aware, at the moment the default reaping rotation is wrong.

neomasterc · 01/28/10, 7:48 PM

Originally Posted by Complicated

You make a good point indeed, based on this I will be testing this build upcoming raid:

7/10/54 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Not that I don't trust sims but I just feel like testing something in the field always served me better.

Just looking at the spec, the points in Imp IT and RPM yield close to no dps increase and are simply filler. That is 10 talent points for 10% shadow/frost dmg increase, which is ~50% of your total damage. So its effectively 10 points for 5% dps increase.
Assuming necrosis gives 4% dps at 5/5, 3 points in necrosis =2.4%. Using 15000 armor, bladed armor gives 417AP*0.71=296 dps, which is 2.96% of dps assuming 10k dps.
2.96%+2.4% >5% already, not including the 2 points in Dark Conviction, which will make the 14/00/57 pull ahead even more.

Larisroth · 01/28/10, 8:07 PM

AMS soaking is quite interesting, and something that is quite hard to model in the simulator accurately. Certainly it can make quite a bit of difference in most fights. Black ice is a good talent, the problem is that the first tier of frost talents are incredibly weak.

However extra energy gains do make RPM more useful. Assuming you actually generate excess RP, 2 points in RPM could be considered to be 30 RP / 45 seconds, making it 1.5 times as valuable as butchery. Although it in turn makes butchery better as well.

The other relevant fact is actually getting to use the extra DCs, of course haste becomes more valuable in that regard. I've also been wondering if it might make a GoD build more competitive. Looking at your logs you basically don't get any more DCs out, whether that's because you don't have the RP, or the GCDs is hard to tell. You didn't seem to use horn much, so I'm guessing you were mostly gcd constrained.

I was looking at that build too or something similar, running a GoD build with 2/3 morbidity instead of the necrosis. Such a build could be viable if you were often GCD constrained, and with rough calculations could be the best build if you were effectively wasting about 30 RP a 20 second cycle.

Complicated · 01/28/10, 8:34 PM

Originally Posted by Larisroth

AMS soaking is quite interesting, and something that is quite hard to model in the simulator accurately. Certainly it can make quite a bit of difference in most fights. Black ice is a good talent, the problem is that the first tier of frost talents are incredibly weak.

However extra energy gains do make RPM more useful. Assuming you actually generate excess RP, 2 points in RPM could be considered to be 30 RP / 45 seconds, making it 1.5 times as valuable as butchery. Although it in turn makes butchery better as well.

The other relevant fact is actually getting to use the extra DCs, of course haste becomes more valuable in that regard. I've also been wondering if it might make a GoD build more competitive. Looking at your logs you basically don't get any more DCs out, whether that's because you don't have the RP, or the GCDs is hard to tell. You didn't seem to use horn much, so I'm guessing you were mostly gcd constrained.

I was looking at that build too or something similar,

I'm basically GCD contrained the whole fight, sometimes finding it hard to stay below cap which is where RMP is more usefull as some make it out to be here.

Although AMS is responsible for a huge deal of this RP generation I looked at my latest parse more carefully and saw my druids did a ridiculously good job on keeping Revitalize ticking:

Revitalize: 368 runic power
Anti-Magic Shell: 230 runic power

Complicated · 01/28/10, 8:41 PM

Originally Posted by neomasterc

Just looking at the spec, the points in Imp IT and RPM yield close to no dps increase and are simply filler. That is 10 talent points for 10% shadow/frost dmg increase, which is ~50% of your total damage. So its effectively 10 points for 5% dps increase.
Assuming necrosis gives 4% dps at 5/5, 3 points in necrosis =2.4%. Using 15000 armor, bladed armor gives 417AP*0.71=296 dps, which is 2.96% of dps assuming 10k dps.
2.96%+2.4% >5% already, not including the 2 points in Dark Conviction, which will make the 14/00/57 pull ahead even more.

I'm not arguing with facts, obviously 14/0/57 is the best static single target spec and is what I will be using on every progress attempt.

What I'm merely suggesting is a Black Ice Death Coil focussed spec for fights which require some range target changes and/or include an AMS-friendly environment.

dr_AllCOM3 · 01/28/10, 9:40 PM

Originally Posted by Larisroth

AMS soaking is quite interesting, and something that is quite hard to model in the simulator accurately. [...]

However extra energy gains do make RPM more useful.

The simulator does model AMS, but it doesn't react in any special way to it.
I often have to prioritize DC or I end up wasting rune power. The sim shows equal dps for DC>SS and SS>DC. The question is, does this still hold true for external rune power sources like AMS? You can't always choose the AMS timing.

Martialbob · 01/28/10, 10:10 PM

I've been running some sims and i've been noticing something, not sure if it's been brought up or not.

After you get 2pc t10 and lose 4pct9 crit descales some... I've been simming and I'm showing 12/0/59 (losing 2 points into Dark Conviction and gaining 2 points in Morbidity), is a very small upgrade to 14/0/57.. and the added AoE boost to this is rediculous.

Any thoughts on this?

oAllElseFailo · 01/28/10, 10:19 PM

has anyone seen if cryptmaker > bryntoll (264) Even at 4p T10 i'm still getting cryptmaker as a ~ -50 dps loss compared to bryntoll. (simulation of course)

dr_AllCOM3 · 01/28/10, 10:47 PM

I've made some tests with a simulated AMS.
Conclusion: Speccing for it does not pay off. You most likely can use all the rune power it provides, even in the standard Reaping spec. On hardmode fights you're better off saving AMS for certain boss abilites, so your healers can concentrate oh that glass cannon over there.
Having the GoD and a "free" gcd doesn't help either. You have to use your runes when they pop up or you'll get in trouble with using Pestilence.

rp	s	Spec	DPS
0rp	45s	12-0-59	11184
0rp	45s	12-2-57	11026
0rp	45s	12-0-59 GoD	10988
0rp	45s	12-2-57 GoD	10816
100rp	45s	12-0-59	11392
100rp	45s	12-2-57	11368
100rp	45s	12-0-59 GoD	11154
100rp	45s	12-2-57 GoD	11122
20rp	20s	12-0-59	11337
20rp	20s	12-2-57	11195
20rp	20s	12-0-59 GoD	11185
20rp	20s	12-2-57 GoD	11031

Points taken from Necrosis.
The sim does not have to pay 20 rp for AMS, so the RPM specs are even lower.

neomasterc · 01/28/10, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by Complicated

I'm not arguing with facts, obviously 14/0/57 is the best static single target spec and is what I will be using on every progress attempt.

What I'm merely suggesting is a Black Ice Death Coil focussed spec for fights which require some range target changes and/or include an AMS-friendly environment.

30 extra RP is not going to help you much.
If you are getting RP capped, that means that your rate of RP generation > rate of RP use. You are still going to get RP capped out no matter what, and its really not worth the points in my opinion.
As for range target changes, so far there are not many of such fights out in icc. Even if there was, there aren't so substantially different that you need another spec.

Complicated · 01/29/10, 6:57 AM

Originally Posted by neomasterc

30 extra RP is not going to help you much.
If you are getting RP capped, that means that your rate of RP generation > rate of RP use. You are still going to get RP capped out no matter what, and its really not worth the points in my opinion.
As for range target changes, so far there are not many of such fights out in icc. Even if there was, there aren't so substantially different that you need another spec.

Don't forget in a Black Ice / Morbidity build Death Coil will benefit from 25% increased damage.

Effectively increasing the value of all RP gained from sources like Horn, Revitalize, AMS, Butchery by 25%.

if you check my parse one more time I'm gaining 608 RP in 266 seconds almost 2,3 RP/s
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

This is without perfect Revitalize uptime and not a single Horn cast (GCD capped).

While I agree with your logic, running last raid as 1/10/60 gave me a higher DPS result for most bosses in ICC25. (Note that Black Ice does increase Bryntroll damage by ~1%).

Lamperouqe · 01/29/10, 6:57 AM

Originally Posted by Deadline

Remember, for the Reaping rotation, you need to use the one Consider has posted at the bottom of the original post. As far as I'm aware, at the moment the default reaping rotation is wrong.

On page 92 I posted an argument about using Horn on retry on the sim. It leads to inaccurate results. I don't know if my post was read, but soon after that the default Reaping rotation was changed on the sim.