Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 16

Consider · 09/15/09, 8:50 PM

New EP values, without reaping, and all that jazz:

EP:50	AttackPower	1
EP:50	Strength	3.03
EP:50	Agility	1.03
EP:50	CritRating	2.03
EP:50	HasteRating	1.74
EP:50	ArmorPenetrationRating	1.13
EP:50	ExpertiseRating	1.39
EP:50	BeforeMeleeHitCap<8%	2.81
EP:26	AfterMeleeHitCap	1.55
EP:10	WeaponDPS	5.97
EP:0.1	WeaponSpeed	290.32
EP:	2T7	60.34
EP:	4T7	203.45
EP:	2T8	115.52
EP:	4T8	127.59
EP:	2T9	144.83
EP:	4T9	708.62
	Template	17054noReap
	Priority	Unholy
	Presence	Blood
	Sigil	Virulence
	RuneEnchant	FallenCrusader
	Pet Calculation	True

As predicted, ArP went up by almost exactly 15% in value (/pats self on back). Everything else was roughly the same (or if it was different, the difference was explainable - such as with the t7 set bonuses) except for expertise and hit - they both went down (slightly) in value, and I'm not completely sure why. If anything I would have expected the opposite, as you have less free gcds. I'll run the numbers again to see if it was just some sort of fluke, I suppose, but still; I don't think it is - these numbers should be pretty accurate - but I just can't think of an explanation for it.

Ruik · 09/15/09, 10:19 PM

So, I'm wondering, if 17/0/54 without reaping is the new way to play Unholy in 3.2.2 (assuming nothing changes) How would the Glyph of BS compare to UB (I think its the weakest one?) assuming you raid with a FF Mage?

Consider · 09/15/09, 10:46 PM

Yes, Glyph of BS is superior. Not hugely so, but superior indeed. I don't keep up on mages but, at least judging by my guilds own mages, I'm under the impression FF is not optimal? The gain you would get from GoBS would be less than 50 dps, so the mage is much better off just actually speccing fire (or arcane or whatever is best in 3.2.2).

If they're FFB anyways, then yeah, it is worthwhile.

NaeblisHyjal · 09/16/09, 1:38 AM

DK's that have a Feral Druid tanking for them on a regular basis should probably pick up the Glyph of Blood Strike because of the snare that Feral Druids provide through Infected Wounds.

Prinsesa · 09/16/09, 1:42 AM

This new build didn't really change anything that we didn't already know from the patch notes update, EXCEPT:

Bone Shield now lasts 1 min. (Down from 5 min)

As far as relevancy to Unholy DPS, this could mean some DPS loss from being obliged to refresh your Bone Shield much sooner than you otherwise would.

Consider · 09/16/09, 1:48 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

As far as relevancy to Unholy DPS, this could mean some DPS loss from being obliged to refresh your Bone Shield much sooner than you otherwise would.

Not really. Even without Reaping, you still have a free GCD a minute, so it's actually a buff if you aren't getting extra RP from AMS/Revitalize/etc, as BT + BS does generate 20 RP (and 20 RP + 0 damage > 0 damage!). If you are getting extra RP from one of those various sources, you would still be better off BT + BSing over HoWing (as 20 RP > 10 RP). Unless you are getting so much RP that you can drop every Horn from your rotation, it's a buff. A slight one, but definitely a buff.

Not that it was probably intended as such. Not that it was probably intended as a dps nerf, either. I'm sure it was a purely tanking-oriented change, and they figured it would have so slight an effect on dps (if one at all) that it wouldn't matter. And it hardly does. But that oh so slight effect was positive, no doubt.

They also changed the wording on GoSS, but I think it's simply a tooltip clarification to show that it will extend Ebon Plague as well.

Prinsesa · 09/16/09, 1:51 AM

Just to clarify, this is a DPS increase relative to Live 3.2 because of the extra 10 RP per minute, but is not an increase relative to the previous build because Bone Shield's cooldown was still 1 minute yesterday?

Consider · 09/16/09, 1:54 AM

Oh, yes, yes. Relative to live. Relative to the past build of the PTR it's simply a wash, as you would be wanting to use BT + BS on cooldown anyways.

No loss ^^

oAllElseFailo · 09/16/09, 2:51 AM

This is offtopic but i've tried that macro on the first page for raise ally:

/cast [target=party1,exists,dead] Raise Ally; [target=party2,exists,dead] Raise Ally; [target=party3,exists,dead] Raise Ally; [target=party4,exists,dead] Raise Ally

But it doesn't seem to work, people are saying "Macros CANNOT target <Player X> automatically anymore" true/false?

Grigori · 09/16/09, 4:00 AM

Originally Posted by Bensch78

Did you guys ever think about the possibility of dropping reaping since the recent nerfs to SS in 3.2?

In our normal Unholy rotation we have enough space for an additional GCD.

Rotation would be:

PS-IT-SS-BS-BS-DC
DC-SS-SS-BS-BS-DC

All Sims done with the predefined 2H Ulduar-Set (4PCT8 included)

17-0-54 with Reaping - 7138 dps

17-0-54 without Reaping - 7177 dps

Now the same Sim done with 4PCT9 (other Stats remaining)

17-0-54 with Reaping - 7495 dps

17-0-54 without Reaping - 7547 dps

Now the same Sim done with 4PCT9 and + 200 Str (other Stats remaining) just looking for some sort of scaling

17-0-54 with Reaping - 7880 dps

17-0-54 without Reaping - 7934 dps

Looking at this numbers you are gaining roughly 50 dps... don´t have any trouble with Blood Tap destroying your rotation... ARP will be a little bit more valuable... 2PCT9 will proc more often...

Perhaps someone can do the sims on his own to prove my statements or to show me, how foolish i am...

Edit: Put in Rotation

I don't know if anybody still remembers the 13-GCD rotations discussion from way back. The gist of it is, unlike Frost, Unholy can realistically have 2 free GCDs when raid-buffed if you design your rotation properly and you do not have high effective latency. When I manually modeled Reapingless builds like the one you posted, I found them to be around 150~200 DPS loss compared to GoIT 17-0-54 type builds running 2xIT rotations along the line of:

SS>BS>BS>dc>PS>IT
SS>dc>SS>dc>PS>IT(>dc)

The use frequency of the final DC is close to 100%, because the rotation is able to carry a full DC worth of RP in reserve to drain 2 RP at a time without going over.

Timing tests on dummies from way back showed that, with 150 haste rating and raid buffs, the effective latency threshold for executing 7-strike-6-spell rotations was around 155-160 ms. However, I have yet to see an existing tool capable of modeling this correctly. For example, I don't know if it's a rune timing/rotation modeling issue or something else I am missing, but Kalorie's sim calculates the effective latency threshold for executing 13-GCD Unholy rotations to be about 25-30 ms as far as I can tell.

You can get around that problem by simply setting the sim to run at 25-30 ms latency or lower. However, there is an additional problem with the way it models disease tick timing. When I used the sim as a cross-check for my own numbers, the sim would inexplicably lose ~3-4% of disease ticks when running 13-GCD rotations even when set to below the threahold (50-60 ms effective latency is about as low as I can go personally in practice, and even at that effective latency I am nowhere near the point where I can go below 6 ticks per 20 sec).

I can't think of an easy way to get aruond the second problem when using the sim; figuring the phantom disease tick loss in manually puts the sim about 60-70 DPS off of my numbers.

Clark · 09/16/09, 4:46 AM

Originally Posted by Consider

Oh, yes, yes. Relative to live. Relative to the past build of the PTR it's simply a wash, as you would be wanting to use BT + BS on cooldown anyways.

No loss ^^

Why would you waste Blood tap to refresh bone shield if the duration was not up? That death rune = 1 PS or 1 IT, or 1 BS, or 1 BB, etcetera

It isn't as if the strikes are on a cooldown separate from the rune refresh. As soon as blood tap goes off, all the single rune strikes become available.

If you are using bone shield solely to generate RP, you are really missing out on DPS.

Prinsesa · 09/16/09, 4:51 AM

As I understood it:

The Unholy single-target rotation, as it stands now, has a recurring free GCD in which the DK uses Horn of Winter to generate 10 RP.

Come 3.2.2, instead of a HoW, the DK can slot-in a Blood Tap+Bone Shield combo, which generates 20 RP instead of 10 RP.

This is a DPS gain, since you're spending just as many GCDs, meaning your rotation does not change, but you gain an extra 10 RP per minute by replacing the HoW with the BT+BS.

Since the idea is to cast Bone Shield every minute, even if you already have the Bone Shield running with 4 minutes left on the duration, then losing the extra duration is an effective neutral change.

Clark · 09/16/09, 5:07 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

As I understood it:

The Unholy single-target rotation, as it stands now, has a recurring free GCD in which the DK uses Horn of Winter to generate 10 RP.

Come 3.2.2, instead of a HoW, the DK can slot-in a Blood Tap+Bone Shield combo, which generates 20 RP instead of 10 RP.

This is a DPS gain, since you're spending just as many GCDs, meaning your rotation does not change, but you gain an extra 10 RP per minute by replacing the HoW with the BT+BS.

Since the idea is to cast Bone Shield every minute, even if you already have the Bone Shield running with 4 minutes left on the duration, then losing the extra duration is an effective neutral change.

We seem to be having this discussion on 2 forums now.

But on live, right now, I use that Blood tap and that free GCD to slot in an extra Blood Strike on single mobs, or a BB on an AOE pack. That also generates 20 RP.

So now I have to waste 5 runes every 5 minutes instead of 1 rune every 5 minutes. 4 unholy runes = 4 PS which is at least 4k damage lost every 5 minutes. 4 death runes lost every 5 minutes is much worse. At least it is 4 Blood Strike lost, which is closer to 8k damage lost every 5 minutes.

I am going to ask again. for all those folks that are using Blood Tap and Bone shield to generate 20 RP. Why the hell wouldn't you use that Blood Tap death rune to Blood strike? Please explain.

TLDR, BT+Blood Strike = 20RP+2k damge >>BT+Bone Shield =20RP +0 damage

Bensch78 · 09/16/09, 5:11 AM

Doing the Sims without epidemic as mentioned above:

Predefined 2H Ulduar Set + 4PCT9 + 200 Str - 150ms Latency

17-0-54 NoReaping, UB-Glyph

Rotation: No - Priority: Unholy - 7930 dps

17-0-54 Reaping, NoEpidemic, IT-Glyph

Rotation: PS-IT-SS-BS-BS-Dump-PS-IT-SS-SS-Dump (repeat) - Priority: No - 7984 dps

17-0-54 NoReaping, No Epidemic, IT-Glyph

Rotation: PS-IT-SS-BS-BS-Dump (repeat) - Priority: No - 7986 dps

If my sims are not really way off, the simpliest Rotation offers the most dps (by a small margin)

Just do: PS-IT-SS-BS-BS-DUMP until the end... i didn´t let the sims retry my DC, but the sim did retry all Rune-Abilities in my Rotation.

Illu · 09/16/09, 6:21 AM

Clark, remember that Bone Shield grants a 2% damage buff while active, and while I don't know how much that would add up to on average, I'm fairly sure it's 2k or more over the course of a fight per minute. If you never used the Blood Tap to use it, you'd lose that or else lose damage keeping it up without the extra blood Tap rune (via destroying a SS cast).

Granted if Bone shield ends very fast in a specific fight with lots of AoE, possibly the Blood Strike would be higher. But if that is the case, perhaps something could be said for the low maintenance you are in that kind of scenario.