Elitist Jerks Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything

01/31/10, 7:41 PM   #2401
Sulika
Glass Joe

Human Death Knight

Bloodfeather (EU)
 Originally Posted by MaFire I think one topic that hasn't really been discussed much in this topic that might be of interest is the exact timings as to when to reapply diseases. Some stated a while back that you are best off reapplying them before they fall off even if it means clipping them. Assuming you have both diseases applied at about a 1.5 sec interval and you applied IT before PS, then when you reapply the first disease (say IT) you will still have CF / RoR up, and be able to not clip the last tick before reapplying it. If you did wait for the last 1.5 seconds to apply this disease, though, the last tick of blood plague will tick right when you reapply BP with PS, but you just saved ~3000 damage for 10% damage on your PS/BP disease? Doing the math.. PS avg damage of 3957 x .1 = 395.7 BP ticks 6 times (assuming you clip last tick) = (1384x6) x .1 = 830.4 Total DPS gained from PS applied before letting it tick = 1226.1 With this in mind, the DPS gain from clipping your diseases and not clipping them seems to favor the latter. Parse that I took data from: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
You are forgetting that you also lose whatever the very last ability you would have gotten to use on the boss is. Supposing in the last 1.5 seconds of the boss fight you were going to be using a SS. Now, because you waited an extra 1.5 seconds to reapply PS earlier on in that fight you no longer get to use that extra final SS. So the cost to gain an extra disease tick is 10% of a PS + 100% of a SS.

So in a fight that lasts 280 seconds (14 full rotations) you end up waiting an extra 14 * 1.5 = 21 seconds overall to reapply PS. That costs you one full rotation in lost time or 1/14th of your overall special ability usage. Now it doesn't sound so good. The reality however is twice as bad as that and you will, end up losing twice as much time.

This is due to the seldom considered two-second rule. You see if you use your runes within 2 seconds of them coming off cooldown they go back on cooldown as if you had used them the moment they came off cooldown. If it goes beyond that then they go back on cooldown as you would expect. So in a normal rotation your runes come off cooldown like (assume this shows runes coming off cooldown after your first rotation, so this starts 20 seconds into the fight).

```F-------------
-U------------
--F-----------
--U-----------
---D----------
----D---------
-------F------
--------U-----
---------F----
---------U----
----------B---
-----------B--
12345678901234```
Where every row is 1 gcd (generalising to 7 gcds per 10 seconds which is near enough to accurate). What you see is that in the second rotation, even though you used the first two runes for a SS after the U rune came off CD the F rune went back onto cooldown as if you had used it immediately. This is due to the two second rule. The same happens to the two blood runes. Even though you use them at the same instant for a SS when they come back as D runes, the first one goes back on CD with 1 GCD less time to go because you managed to use it within 2 seconds of coming off cooldown. So you get through the entire rotation in 14 GCDs and are ready to start over.

Now, lets add in the extra GCD you are waiting to renew that blood plague.
```F*--------------
-*U-------------
-*-F------------
-*-U------------
-*--D-----------
-*---D----------
-*------*F------
-*------*U------
-*------*--F----
-*------*--U----
-*------*---B---
-*------*----B--
1234567890123456```
The first * indicates the GCD you waste waiting before using your U rune to reapply blood plague. The second * indicates the extra GCD you lose because you didn't use your F rune within 2 seconds of it coming off of GCD. So the overall cost to you is that each rotation takes an extra 2 global cooldowns, you are going from 14 to 16 GDCs, the total cost over time will be 1/7th of your total ability usage. In short, waiting an extra 1.5 seconds for that last tick of EP is a very bad thing to do and will cost you a lot of DPS.

01/31/10, 9:09 PM   #2402
Complicated
Glass Joe

Orc Death Knight

Karazhan (EU)
 Originally Posted by Larisroth Yeah MaFire that's correct. I posted some theorycrafting about it a while back, not clipping is better. Also the you don't actually always lose RoR if you have another DK in the raid that's applying blood plague. You have to be a bit careful that you don't extend your rotation in the process, because ultimately that would be a dps loss. The easiest thing I found to do was to swap the order you apply your diseases in every second cycle. That allows you to get 13 ticks in 40 seconds, which is 97.5% of the number of ticks you get from a GoD cycle (And so removing one of the possible advantages for the GoD). You can do that by either relying on the grace period to swap em, or in a reaping build, by using the death runes to put up diseases. With my (rotation based) sims it came out as at least a 100 dps increase twisting the diseases this way.
I'm simming higher without clipping but only a marginal dps increase, do you mind posting the rotation you used to sim with?

The best way to do this is indeed use your Death Runes for diseases every two rotations, its pretty straight forward when you try it out on dummy/bossfight.

Then I tried simming with losing one point in Epidemic and putting it in Morbidity which got some interesting results:

2/2 Epidemic: 9921
1/2 Epidemic: 9943

Using the suggested rotation by Consider in Kahorie 1.2.0.6

Can anyone double check this please.

01/31/10, 9:41 PM   #2403
eventually
Von Kaiser

Orc Death Knight

Disease Juggling

Since disease re-apping is coming up I thought I would contribute, this isn't something that can be simmed its just using basic knowledge in reapplying them.

I like to call it Disease Juggling

When your disease just ticked for the 18s mark, refreshing the disease that just ticked will allow your other disease to tick before you refresh it, due to it being a gcd away, and diseases being 1.5s apart. Note that this can't be applied to every 20s segment, but rather close to it.

Below is some data from our logs displaying the situation, read it carefully and see if you understand

 [19:35:54.239] Potlol casts Icy Touch on Festergut [19:35:54.515] Potlol Icy Touch Festergut 1343 (R: 149) [19:35:54.515] Festergut afflicted by Frost Fever from Potlol [19:35:56.003] Potlol casts Plague Strike on Festergut [19:35:56.096] Potlol Plague Strike Festergut *5775* [19:35:56.096] Festergut afflicted by Blood Plague from Potlol [19:35:57.531] Potlol Frost Fever Festergut 1279 (R: 126) [19:35:59.096] Potlol Blood Plague Festergut 1545 [19:36:00.625] Potlol Frost Fever Festergut 1422 [19:36:02.296] Potlol Blood Plague Festergut 1544 [19:36:03.546] Potlol Frost Fever Festergut 1422 [19:36:05.158] Potlol Blood Plague Festergut 1235 (R: 273) [19:36:06.609] Potlol Frost Fever Festergut 1279 (R: 126) [19:36:08.240] Potlol Blood Plague Festergut 1390 (R: 137) [19:36:09.515] Potlol Frost Fever Festergut 1279 (R: 126) [19:36:11.078] Potlol Blood Plague Festergut 1544 [19:36:12.595] Potlol Frost Fever Festergut 1279 (R: 126) [19:36:14.238] Potlol Blood Plague Festergut 1544 [19:36:14.265] Potlol casts Plague Strike on Festergut [19:36:14.578] Potlol Plague Strike Festergut 3088 [19:36:14.578] Festergut's Blood Plague is refreshed by Potlol [19:36:15.500] Potlol Frost Fever Festergut 1422 [19:36:15.500] Festergut's Frost Fever fades [19:36:15.859] Potlol casts Icy Touch on Festergut [19:36:16.203] Potlol Icy Touch Festergut 2130 (R: 209) [19:36:16.203] Festergut afflicted by Frost Fever from Potlol [19:36:17.645] Potlol Blood Plague Festergut 1907
And another example

 [19:36:55.156] Potlol Plague Strike Festergut 3416 [19:36:55.156] Festergut's Blood Plague is refreshed by Potlol [19:36:55.687] Potlol Frost Fever Festergut 2326 [19:36:55.687] Festergut's Frost Fever fades19:36:56.421] Potlol casts Icy Touch on Festergut [19:36:56.753] Potlol Icy Touch Festergut 2909 [19:36:56.753] Festergut afflicted by Frost Fever from Potlol [19:36:57.671] Festergut's Frost Fever is refreshed by Potlol [19:36:58.127] Potlol Blood Plague Festergut 1926 (R: 189) [19:36:59.446] Festergut's Frost Fever is refreshed by Potlol [19:36:59.671] Potlol Frost Fever Festergut 2296 (R: 226) [19:37:01.204] Potlol Blood Plague Festergut 1927 (R: 189) [19:37:02.690] Potlol Frost Fever Festergut 2296 (R: 226) [19:37:04.116] Potlol Blood Plague Festergut 2141 [19:37:05.722] Potlol Frost Fever Festergut 2552 [19:37:07.312] Potlol Blood Plague Festergut 2141 [19:37:08.816] Potlol Frost Fever Festergut 2552 [19:37:10.208] Potlol Blood Plague Festergut 2141 [19:37:11.781] Potlol Frost Fever Festergut 2041 (R: 452) [19:37:13.157] Potlol Blood Plague Festergut 2141 [19:37:14.785] Potlol Frost Fever Festergut 2552 [19:37:15.409] Potlol casts Icy Touch on Festergut [19:37:15.552] Potlol Icy Touch Festergut *4575* [19:37:15.552] Festergut's Frost Fever is refreshed by Potlol [19:37:16.093] Potlol Blood Plague Festergut 2141 [19:37:16.093] Festergut's Blood Plague fades [19:37:16.640] Potlol casts Plague Strike on Festergut [19:37:16.825] Potlol Plague Strike Festergut 2688 [19:37:16.828] Festergut afflicted by Blood Plague from Potlol [19:37:18.546] Potlol Frost Fever Festergut 1475 (R: 327) [19:37:19.767] Potlol Blood Plague Festergut 1552
As you can see in the data from the logs, for instance the second one since only 4 parts are bolded, it started with a PS / IT combo, but ended with a IT / PS combo, allowing for the extra disease tick in between the refresh at [19:37:16.093]

Over a fight this can contribute to quite a few extra disease ticks, and how I go about refreshing mine, I made this image a while ago to try and demonstrate it, but I think I explained it quite well with the logs, just for reference.

I see alot of people just solely sticking to a rotation and refreshing diseases in that order, losing potential ticks.

 01/31/10, 10:04 PM #2404 Malcophant Piston Honda   Ziem Goblin Mage   Bleeding Hollow One thing you need to consider when thinking about not clipping diseases, is whether or not your raid has another source of a magic debuff. If not, clipping your diseases is almost 100% necessary, as the minimal DPS gained by not clipping will be greatly overshadowed by the raid DPS lost by not having ebon plague up.
01/31/10, 10:37 PM   #2405
Larisroth
Piston Honda

Orc Death Knight

Thaurissan
 Originally Posted by Complicated I'm simming higher without clipping but only a marginal dps increase, do you mind posting the rotation you used to sim with? The best way to do this is indeed use your Death Runes for diseases every two rotations, its pretty straight forward when you try it out on dummy/bossfight. Then I tried simming with losing one point in Epidemic and putting it in Morbidity which got some interesting results: 2/2 Epidemic: 9921 1/2 Epidemic: 9943 Using the suggested rotation by Consider in Kahorie 1.2.0.6 Can anyone double check this please.
That looks roughly right, it'll depend on your latency extra rp etc. While it's a nominal DPS improvement. You'd probably get more out of disease twisting even if you screw up a bit.

For the sim of twisting diseases I just used an initial sequence of IT PS SS BS BS (dump)
Then a repeating sequence of (2x) SS SS (PS IT) (dump) // SS SS BS BS (more dump)
Where the diseases are swapped for the second cycle.
In practice for many fights you can't run a perfect rotation but it's pretty easy to line up your disease refreshes to maximise the number of ticks you get.

Eventually's pic sums it up. The only thing you have to be a bit careful of is the timing, but if you're using death runes to apply the diseases it's actually quite forgiving on that (so you can sneak in extra dumps).

 Originally Posted by Malcophant One thing you need to consider when thinking about not clipping diseases, is whether or not your raid has another source of a magic debuff. If not, clipping your diseases is almost 100% necessary, as the minimal DPS gained by not clipping will be greatly overshadowed by the raid DPS lost by not having ebon plague up.
That's true only if you drop a point from epidemic and naively apply the diseases.
You can however setup a rotation (especially in a reaping build), so your diseases are offset by more than 3 seconds so you never lose EP. Under some circumstances there are certain advantages to doing so. (You can get better uptime on your 2T9 bonus if you spread out your BS more).

ETA:
As an aside I wonder how much damage you have to in general to make it worth delaying your rotation by 1 gcd permanently. A rough calculation using data from my most recent sims tends to suggest that in BiS gear our strikes plus DC dumps do about 5K dps. So using a GCD do to an extra DC would have to do about 7.5K damage to even be considered as worth it. (given your average damage cycle is top heavy). The DC + UB hits for about 7.15K damage. So it's a small loss (but that was without morbidity). (With full morbidity it comes out at a win). Of course that assumes the RP would be wasted otherwise.

Last edited by Larisroth : 01/31/10 at 11:20 PM.

The feral druid is a different beast altogether.

01/31/10, 11:54 PM   #2406
neomasterc
Piston Honda

Orc Death Knight

Cho'gall
 Originally Posted by Malcophant One thing you need to consider when thinking about not clipping diseases, is whether or not your raid has another source of a magic debuff. If not, clipping your diseases is almost 100% necessary, as the minimal DPS gained by not clipping will be greatly overshadowed by the raid DPS lost by not having ebon plague up.
I totally agree. But this is still an interesting idea if you have magical debuff present. I wasnt aware of the specifics of this mechanic but was doing it anyways. Thanks to potlol for clarifying this. Just wondering, is there anyways to sim this on kahorie to figure out the approximate dps gain?

 02/01/10, 12:00 AM #2407 eventually Von Kaiser     Potlol Orc Death Knight   Dreadmaul If you disease juggle, ebon plague has 100% uptime.
02/01/10, 12:09 AM   #2408
dr_AllCOM3
Great Tiger

Orc Death Knight

Blutkessel (EU)
 Originally Posted by Larisroth [...]As an aside I wonder how much damage you have to in general to make it worth delaying your rotation by 1 gcd permanently.[...]
Delaying runes is generally bad, but there are beneficial occasions. You can delay them for a DC, when you're a maximum rp. Saving your D rune pair exclusively for a SS is also worth it. I just tested that with a modified sim.

Last edited by dr_AllCOM3 : 02/01/10 at 12:30 AM.

02/01/10, 1:49 AM   #2409
Sulika
Glass Joe

Human Death Knight

Bloodfeather (EU)
 Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3 Delaying runes is generally bad, but there are beneficial occasions. You can delay them for a DC, when you're a maximum rp. Saving your D rune pair exclusively for a SS is also worth it. I just tested that with a modified sim.
I don't see how it could be worth it. If you wait 1 extra GCD to use your two D runes then you are bring the first D rune out of the two second rule. This means you have to wait 3 seconds more to use your blood strike on the next rotation. If the runic power was going to be lost due to going overcap if you didn't use them then maybe it would be a DPS gain, but if not then I don't see it being a DPS gain. Maybe theres something I am missing.

 02/01/10, 2:04 AM #2410 MaFire Glass Joe   Korpel Human Death Knight   Draenor More or less what I try and do is what Potlol has posted in his post, but sometimes it does feel like when I do that, I have to wait maybe half a second or so to actually reapply the disease to let it tick... Also I'd like to point out that what I posted earlier applies to your plague strike in your combat log. Blood Plague fell off, so you lose 10% damage on the PS and subsequent BP ticks, but this should be worth it because of the gain of that extra tick. The only thing that is kind of confusing me now is the "juggling" of the diseases. If I go with IT PS BS BS SS, I can either A. Apply BP at the 15 second mark, then IT afterwards with my first set of FU runes that comes off CD or B. Apply IT at the 21s mark and BP at the 21s mark with my second set of FU runes if I don't clip diseases and don't wait at all on any of my runes. If I go with IT PS SS BS BS by the time my first set of frost / unholy runes come off GCD, I find that I have to wait a split second before I can reapply FF at the 21s mark and then BP at the 21s mark right after it. I'm having troubles reproducing your refresh at 18 seconds with your PS. Doing some work with runes, I got: 0 IT BB F UU 1.5 PS BB F U 3 BS B F U 4.5 BS F U 6 SS 7.5 --------------- 9 --------------- 10.5 SS first set of UH runes exhausted 12 SS Death Runes exhausted 13.5 SS second set of UH runes exhausted 15 16.5 18 19.5 21 IT IT reapplied 22.5 PS PS reapplied Note that in the situation above, IT was reapplied with BP and Ebon up, and PS was reapplied with ebon up but no BP up which is the loss of damage I was talking about in an earlier post. If you follow this, you don't really wait at all due to the grace period of the runes.
02/01/10, 2:50 AM   #2411
eventually
Von Kaiser

Orc Death Knight

 Originally Posted by MaFire More or less what I try and do is what Potlol has posted in his post, but sometimes it does feel like when I do that, I have to wait maybe half a second or so to actually reapply the disease to let it tick... Also I'd like to point out that what I posted earlier applies to your plague strike in your combat log. Blood Plague fell off, so you lose 10% damage on the PS and subsequent BP ticks, but this should be worth it because of the gain of that extra tick. The only thing that is kind of confusing me now is the "juggling" of the diseases. If I go with IT PS BS BS SS, I can either A. Apply BP at the 15 second mark, then IT afterwards with my first set of FU runes that comes off CD or B. Apply IT at the 21s mark and BP at the 21s mark with my second set of FU runes if I don't clip diseases and don't wait at all on any of my runes. If I go with IT PS SS BS BS by the time my first set of frost / unholy runes come off GCD, I find that I have to wait a split second before I can reapply FF at the 21s mark and then BP at the 21s mark right after it. I'm having troubles reproducing your refresh at 18 seconds with your PS. Doing some work with runes, I got: 0 IT BB F UU 1.5 PS BB F U 3 BS B F U 4.5 BS F U 6 SS 7.5 --------------- 9 --------------- 10.5 SS first set of UH runes exhausted 12 SS Death Runes exhausted 13.5 SS second set of UH runes exhausted 15 16.5 18 19.5 21 IT IT reapplied 22.5 PS PS reapplied Note that in the situation above, IT was reapplied with BP and Ebon up, and PS was reapplied with ebon up but no BP up which is the loss of damage I was talking about in an earlier post. If you follow this, you don't really wait at all due to the grace period of the runes.
We have a frost and another unholy dk in the raid, there should always be blood plague on the target.

You never reapply diseases at the 15s mark, you juggle them in the 18s - 21s window, depending on the previous disease used you will get the 18s tick from one, refresh the one that did the 18s tick, then automatically the 21s will tick from the other due to it being 1.5s apart, this method also allows quick refresh times on diseases.

Its just something you get the hang of, try it out on a dummy for a bit and see if it makes sense. You never waste any rune delay.

Last edited by eventually : 02/01/10 at 2:55 AM.

02/01/10, 5:30 AM   #2412
Nyth_
Piston Honda

Troll Hunter

 Originally Posted by eventually We have a frost and another unholy dk in the raid, there should always be blood plague on the target. You never reapply diseases at the 15s mark, you juggle them in the 18s - 21s window, depending on the previous disease used you will get the 18s tick from one, refresh the one that did the 18s tick, then automatically the 21s will tick from the other due to it being 1.5s apart, this method also allows quick refresh times on diseases. Its just something you get the hang of, try it out on a dummy for a bit and see if it makes sense. You never waste any rune delay.
I think the question is more, where do you get the unholy rune from ?

I haven't checked it yet, so maybe the rune is back up in 18 seconds, but i generally find that when my frost rune comes back up, FF is on 1 sec and my unholy rune i still on cooldown.

Let me show you what i mean:

 t= Rune type Ability Back up at t= 0 F IT 10 1.5 U PS 11.5 3-10 - Other strikes - 10 F Hold for U rune - 11.5 U Scourge strike F at 20; U at 21.5

And this is the problem i see.
I do the normal SS>SS>SS rotation between the 10 to 20 second mark.

After that the frost rune comes back up at 20 seconds, but there is no unholy rune available until 21.5.

That means that either:
1) You are skipping the last scourge strike and use that blood rune
2) You refresh PS at t=21.5 second, since it started at t=1.5, its on the 20 second mark and 1 second from the last tick and 2 seconds after the previous tick. Which also means you lose out a few seconds on frost fever
3) Your general rotation is delayed. Because that's the only way i can see i can see that SS at t=11.5 have the 2 second leeway. It SHOULDN'T if your rotation is on the ball since the unholy rune hasn't been "waiting".
4) I'm missing something very obvious.

Please enlighten me though how you can use unholy rune before a frost rune when they come up in a different order.

02/01/10, 5:52 AM   #2413
eventually
Von Kaiser

Orc Death Knight

 Originally Posted by Nyth_ Please enlighten me though how you can use unholy rune before a frost rune when they come up in a different order.
I use empower rune weapon at the start on my first gargoyle to make up for the rp loss from summon to dc, this causes the unholy / frost runes that you would normally use to redisease to always refresh at the same time for the rest of the fight, allowing you to juggle.

I didn't actually notice that till I just tested it on a dummy, since I always empower the same way on every fight.

edit: Or like the poster below me posted, using a 2nd set set of runes to refresh that come up at the same time, I prefer creating my own ones with ERW, but that technique also gets the job done!

Last edited by eventually : 02/01/10 at 6:21 AM.

 02/01/10, 6:09 AM #2414 Mortak Von Kaiser   Morrtak Orc Death Knight   Destromath (EU) actually i found this juggling much more convenient to do with the second set of UF runes rather than the deathrunes. Since the 2nd set is syncronised it doesnt matter if you PS or IT first, you are still not delaying, but in case of a parry/miss streak it doesnt totally mess up the rotation like when using deathrunes (using U/F rune instead of Deathrune bc it got ready before you could land the attack) So for me it looks like this: Starting Sequence: PS, IT, SS, BS, BS, DUMP, SS, IT, PS, SS, DUMP Following Sequence: SS, SS, BS, BS, DUMP, SS, PS, IT, SS, DUMP SS, SS, BS, BS, DUMP, SS, IT, PS, SS, DUMP
 02/01/10, 9:33 AM #2415 Lamperouqe Von Kaiser     Lamperouqe Troll Death Knight   Stormreaver (EU) I also found the easiest way to do it by using ERW at the start, which I always do for the same reason as Potlol; there's no RP to dump after summoning Gargoyle. Using ERW makes the juggling possible without using your death runes for it, as the UF runes will come off CD at the same time. What can mess this up is a missed IT or a dodged PS, which make your U and F runes go out of sync. If that happens you need to switch the runes you use for reapplying diseases, or start clipping normally for the rest of the fight. Juggling gives your EP 100% uptime, but your BP drops off every second rotation, which is why you should clip normally when there's no other DK's present to gain the benefit from RoR. Starter: PS-IT-BS-BS-SS Gargoyle+ERW SS-SS-SS Dump Rotation: (IT<->PS)-SS-BS-BS Dump SS-SS-SS Dump I'd like to see math on 1/2 Epidemic vs. disease juggling, but I'm guessing the latter is superior. Atleast with another Unholy DK present to keep EP and BP up, 1/2 Epidemic seems to win against the normal disease clipping rotation by ~40 DPS on the sim for me, but I don't know if it's possible to sim disease juggling, which is why I'd like to see some math on it. As we are able to soak RP on most of the fights, doesn't that make 12/0/59 with 2 points in Morbidity a better choice than 14/0/57? As the difference with no extra RP is only a few DPS on 14/0/57's favor. If your Druids are speccing into Revitalize, that would favor 12/0/59 even more. There's also the reduced CD on DnD, which doesn't really matter on ICC bosses, but is great for trash/adds and Anub. What are your thoughts and opinions on this and what is still keeping people using 14/0/57?

 Elitist Jerks Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything