Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 162

shed · 02/01/10, 11:03 AM

With the Unholy Reaping build providing extra time for extra death coils, I was wondering if anyone has come up with a value for how much Revitalize druid talent provides through a typical boss fight assuming hots were kept on you the entire fight.

pichuca · 02/01/10, 3:09 PM

I´ve just dropped both points from Epidemic, one from Dark Conviction, and put all them on morbidity. Then changed GoIT for GoSS. Put it all on the team robot simulator and had a 50-60 DPS gain over the 14/0/57 build. Has anyone checked it out on Kahorie´s sim? it does not work for any reason on my computer anymore.

Also I have been testing on dummy and I´m able to use SS for a fifth time once every 2 sequences, beacause there´s a mess with the D runes. Anyway I´m getting a net gain of ~200 dps for a 5 min run on the dummy. Pity that I´ll need to wait till tomorrow to try it on raid. But considering the sims doesn´t count all the AMS gains of some fights, it´s promising

Amroo · 02/01/10, 3:10 PM

Originally Posted by Lamperouqe

Starter:
PS-IT-BS-BS-SS Gargoyle+ERW
SS-SS-SS Dump

I've found PS-IT-BS-SS-BT/SS in the first rune set and SS-SS-BS-BS in the second rune set to be superior (or easier to manage) than the standard starter rotation. Using BT to move SS half a cycle foward effectively yields one extra SS every 2 minutes, instead of two extra BS. However, this is of course only possible with a Reaping-spec.

Originally Posted by pichuca

I´ve just dropped both points from Epidemic, one from Dark Conviction, and put all them on morbidity. Then changed GoIT for GoSS. Put it all on the team robot simulator and had a 50-60 DPS gain over the 14/0/57 build. Has anyone checked it out on Kahorie´s sim? it does not work for any reason on my computer anymore.

You are trading 20% Frost Fever damage and 1% crit for 15% DC+UB damage. For me 1% crit is about 60 dps, 5% DC damage is about 40 dps. Even if we assume they are equal, it's trading 20% FF damage for 10% DC+UB damage. On Festergut with a normal DC crit rate, 10% to DC+UB would be about 75 dps, while the 20% increase to FF equalled almost 90 dps. We didn't have a revitalize druid there, but it's still a 20-30 dps difference in favour of IT-glyph. Strangely I get the same results as you in the Team Robot simulator, but it doesn't seem right, at least as long as you don't have an external RP inflow from Revitalize / Rapture. Also, Epidemic-IT becomes significantly better once there is even the slightest form of AoE.

Edit: I forgot to account for the additional WP damage from the IT glyph, so the difference would be even higher.

eventually · 02/01/10, 3:21 PM

In the recent past, it has been hard to post in DK threads without a bunch of players jumping into the discussion for tangential discussions. I apologize in advance if that happens here. But we will make sure resilience, Outbreak and Rage of Rivendare are affecting Scourge Strike correctly.

Post by GC, no mention of 2piece T10, but looks like magic portion might be double dipping from outbreak / RoR in the future, unless i'm misreading it. The thread is about resilience reducing both portions.

Reference: PVP double dipping

dr_AllCOM3 · 02/01/10, 3:50 PM

Originally Posted by eventually

Post by GC, no mention of 2piece T10, but looks like magic portion might be double dipping from outbreak / RoR in the future, unless i'm misreading it. The thread is about resilience reducing both portions.

Reference: PVP double dipping

Seems like SS will be double dipping from Outbreak+RoR in the future and Resilience won't affect it twice anymore.
That would be an overall increase of 3,9% and a 16,5% increase for SS alone.

Amroo · 02/01/10, 4:08 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

Seems like SS will be double dipping from Outbreak+RoR in the future and Resilience won't affect it twice anymore.
That would be an overall increase of 3,9% and a 16,5% increase for SS alone.

So, if we assume 12k for an average SS and 8.5k for two average BS, giving Reaping a value of 175 dps for three points, this would turn into 14k compared to 8.5k and the value of Reaping would increase to 275 dps for three points. This is obviously a very significant increase in the value of the talent, making it probably mandatory.

Larisroth · 02/01/10, 4:44 PM

Originally Posted by Amroo

So, if we assume 12k for an average SS and 8.5k for two average BS, giving Reaping a value of 175 dps for three points, this would turn into 14k compared to 8.5k and the value of Reaping would increase to 275 dps for three points. This is obviously a very significant increase in the value of the talent, making it probably mandatory.

Well I'm pretty sure reaping should be a "mandatory" talent, although I'm not sure how you make it so for ae fights, by comparison blood of the north has a passive single target effect in addition to the Death Rune effect.

Originally Posted by Lamperouqe

I'd like to see math on 1/2 Epidemic vs. disease juggling, but I'm guessing the latter is superior.
Atleast with another Unholy DK present to keep EP and BP up, 1/2 Epidemic seems to win against the normal disease clipping rotation by ~40 DPS on the sim for me, but I don't know if it's possible to sim disease juggling, which is why I'd like to see some math on it.

As we are able to soak RP on most of the fights, doesn't that make 12/0/59 with 2 points in Morbidity a better choice than 14/0/57? As the difference with no extra RP is only a few DPS on 14/0/57's favor.
If your Druids are speccing into Revitalize, that would favor 12/0/59 even more. There's also the reduced CD on DnD, which doesn't really matter on ICC bosses, but is great for trash/adds and Anub. What are your thoughts and opinions on this and what is still keeping people using 14/0/57?

A rough calculation says that disease juggling/twisting is worth about 133 dps in good gear. It's pretty easy to sim if you're using a rotation, you just need a double length rotation, and test with flipped vs unflipped diseases in the second half. By that point the talents you could move the point into are all < 80 dps talents.

dr_AllCOM3 · 02/01/10, 5:34 PM

Originally Posted by Cowrage

Has any compared the gains from +AP from Bladed Armor and +5% crit chance from Dark Conviction to the 10% increased Shadow Dmg?

A lot of people have tested Black Ice and it's never worth it.
Gargoyle is a lot of dps and a must have talent.

I have a question. What do you do with target that have an estimated lifetime of well under 20s, like e.g. Bone Spikes or squishy adds?
I guess we have no choice but to use IT+PS and the occasional Pestilence, but maybe there's someone with a better idea.

shed · 02/01/10, 6:45 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

I have a question. What do you do with target that have an estimated lifetime of well under 20s, like e.g. Bone Spikes or squishy adds?
I guess we have no choice but to use IT+PS and the occasional Pestilence, but maybe there's someone with a better idea.

It really depends on rune timers and such, for a while I was getting my blood or death runes coming up as Bone Spikes came up and simply spread them with pest. Usually I will try to pest and even use Blood Tap to do so. If for whatever reason I can't get diseases on it, I will usually just BS once or twice and dump the RP with coils.

Skarrzog · 02/01/10, 8:01 PM

GC was talking about Scourge Strike on the WoW Dps forums. Although the main topic was about how scourge strike double dips into resilience he made this comment..

"To be clear, while Scourge Strike should not have the physical and Shadow portions both hit by resilience, they should not independently be buffed by +damage effects either. The Shadow damage should in most cases just be a function of the physical damage done. Exceptions are things like Ebon Plague that specifically boost magic damage and don't buff physical damage. Ebon Plague should buff the Shadow damage portion of Scourge Strike. So it's possible the resilience is bugged (in which case it's about to get worse with the resilience change), but at first glance we think Outbreak and the tier 10 bonus are working correctly. "

The wording is a little unclear, but it gives me bad vibes about their intentions for scourge strike and how it is double dipping into alot of +dmg effects and talents.

Larisroth · 02/01/10, 8:26 PM

Originally Posted by Skarrzog

GC was talking about Scourge Strike on the WoW Dps forums. Although the main topic was about how scourge strike double dips into resilience he made this comment..

"To be clear, while Scourge Strike should not have the physical and Shadow portions both hit by resilience, they should not independently be buffed by +damage effects either. The Shadow damage should in most cases just be a function of the physical damage done. Exceptions are things like Ebon Plague that specifically boost magic damage and don't buff physical damage. Ebon Plague should buff the Shadow damage portion of Scourge Strike. So it's possible the resilience is bugged (in which case it's about to get worse with the resilience change), but at first glance we think Outbreak and the tier 10 bonus are working correctly. "

The wording is a little unclear, but it gives me bad vibes about their intentions for scourge strike and how it is double dipping into alot of +dmg effects and talents.

Yeah that was my fear too. I believe when the new SS was first announced and the resilience issue first raised that they said that it would double dip from things in our favour and not from negative things. Of course that led to the insanity of double crits. I can understand why they might want to make it consistent though. In any case for most pve purposes the spell damage is a fixed multiplier of the physical damage. If they were to nerf that multiplier you'd hope they'd just adjust the outbreak percentage to buff us back up.

Autoband · 02/01/10, 9:34 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

A lot of people have tested Black Ice and it's never worth it.
Gargoyle is a lot of dps and a must have talent.

I have a question. What do you do with target that have an estimated lifetime of well under 20s, like e.g. Bone Spikes or squishy adds?
I guess we have no choice but to use IT+PS and the occasional Pestilence, but maybe there's someone with a better idea.

Depends on how long they live, if it's a really short time I usually just obliterate or coil. If they live a bit longer you can use diseases. Really just depends on how long they live!

micronSD · 02/02/10, 2:22 AM

Ive run a few tests to see what talents exactly buff the shadow portion of SS. Based upon my tests, I think I can safely say that Scourge Strike double dips from 5 abilities.

We already know that it double dips from 1.) Blood Presence 2.) 2hand weap spec 3.) Desolation and 4.) Bone Shield but Im fairly certain it also gains benefit from Rage of Rivendare.

What Scourge Strike is not double dipping from:
1.) Ebon Plaguebringer (this isnt actually a candidate for double dipping, but Im including it because its not buffing the shadow portion of SS)
2.) Outbreak
3.) 2pc T10
4.) 4pc T10

Not tested:
Black Ice

Heres some screenshots. I did the tests on lvl 80 training dummies and I used the [Relentless Gladiator's Cloak of Victory] with a Spell Penetration enchant, +35, to try and prevent any potential resists.

SS test, no t10
SS test, 2pc t10
SS test, 4pc t10

If the shadow portion of SS only double dips from Blood Presence, 2hand weap spec, Desolation, and Bone Shield (Ill abbreviate these 4 things as "B2DB" from now on), then the damage always comes up short.

Looking at the screenshots, here are the values we get:

No 2 or 4pc t10 screenshot:
Actual SS physical portion damage = 116323 damage
Projected Shadow portion damage calculated with only "B2DB" = ~111750
Projected Shadow portion damage with RoR added to the double dip list = 111750 * 1.1 = ~122925
Actual Shadow portion damage = 122877

2pc t10 screenshot:
Actual SS physical portion damage = 139801
Projected Shadow portion damage calculated with only "B2DB" = ~134305
Projected Shadow portion damage with RoR added to the double dip list = 134305 * 1.1 = ~147735.5
Actual Shadow portion damage = 147737

4pc t10 screenshot:
Actual SS physical portion damage = 175643
Projected Shadow portion damage calculated with only "B2DB" = ~168738
Projected Shadow portion damage with RoR added to the double dip list = 168738 * 1.1 = ~185611.7
Actual Shadow portion damage = 185650

With those values in mind, I think its safe to assume RoR is affecting the shadow portion of SS, but Outbreak, 2pc t10, 4pc t10, and Ebon Plaguebringer definitely are not.

I realize the tests were done on target dummies and the sample sizes are low (only 75 Scourge Strikes each test), but hopefully the numbers give us some further insight. If anyone sees any inaccuracies in my numbers, please let me know.

Edit: Also, if RoR affecting the shadow portion of SS is common knowledge, then my apologies.

Consider · 02/02/10, 2:54 AM

Edit: Suppose I should have read your post a bit more thoroughly! Suffice is to say you're definitely making an error; simply unsure of where, exactly, said error lies. Your numbers work almost perfectly if you simply forgot to use Bone Shield, but I assume it isn't something that simple. At any rate:

SS double dips into Bone Shield, Two Handed Weapon Specialization, Blood Presence, and Desolation.
It is affected by Ebon Plague (and Black Ice, if for some odd reason you specced it).
Rage of Rivendare and Outbreak are not double dipped.

0.25*3 * 1.13 * (1 +.15 +.05 +.02 ) * 1.04 = 1.0753.

As a dummy test dated ten minutes ago easily shows, this hasn't changed:

7212 / 6707 = 1.07529

On another note, although that screenshot was taken without 4p t10, quick testing with it shows that 4p t10 is not double-dipped. Which is odd, since I could have sworn it was, and since one would assume that due to it being no different than, say, Desolation or Arcane Empowerment that it would. But it most certainly is not.

micronSD · 02/02/10, 3:01 AM

Originally Posted by Consider

You're making multiple errors. To begin with, it's impossible to eliminate partial resists on bosses

I didnt do my tests on the boss dummy. I explicitly stated that.

Originally Posted by Consider

On top of that, the number of shadow and physical SSes in your screenshot are not equal. Potentially some other stuff to, but yeah, partial resists is the key culprit.

The screenshots clearly show why the numbers dont add up: parries, dodges, and misses.

Originally Posted by Consider

SS double dips into Bone Shield, Two Handed Weapon Specialization, Blood Presence, and Desolation.
It is affected by Ebon Plague (and Black Ice, if for some odd reason you specced it).
Rage of Rivendare and Outbreak are not double dipped.

0.25*3 * 1.13 * (1 +.15 +.05 +.02 ) * 1.04 = 1.0753.

As a dummy test dated ten minutes ago easily shows, this hasn't changed:

7212 / 6707 = 1.07529

Thanks for the correction here. The test does show, however, that our t10 set doesnt affect SS. The reason for for my post is this thread = World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Scourge Strike is bugged. Fix this for S8