Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 164

Breklin · 02/03/10, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by lex-machina

Using the iLevel 277 stat weights on the front page, [Oathbinder, Charge of the Ranger-General] is coming out slightly above [Glorenzelg, High-Blade of the Silver Hand] due the ArPen being the most valuable stat and Expertise being the least. As well as both weapons having identical speed and damage.

Did this using python:
>>> str = 3.01
>>> crit = 2.23
>>> arp = 2.92
>>> exp = 1.93
>>> agi = 1.58
>>> polearm = (179*agi)+(60*str)+228+(114*crit)+(122*arp)
>>> sword = (198*str)+(68*str)+(122*crit)+(114*exp)
>>> polearm
1301.8800000000001
>>> sword
1292.7399999999998

This is assuming 3 x Bold Cardinal Ruby in both weapons and that the sword offers a socket bonus of +8 Str.

Kinda lame to be aiming for a hunter weapon, but at least the flavor text seems more DKish than the sword.

That's why the BiS list is a full set of optimized gear - you can't really analyze weapons in a vacuum. If that expertise on the weapon allows you to pick up expertise on another piece of gear that is better itemized than its alternative, it's a net gain.

lex-machina · 02/03/10, 1:01 PM

Originally Posted by Breklin

That's why the BiS list is a full set of optimized gear - you can't really analyze weapons in a vacuum. If that expertise on the weapon allows you to pick up expertise on another piece of gear that is better itemized than its alternative, it's a net gain.

Understood, but Unholy isn't stacking expertise to cap. So, unlike hit, gaining that expertise isn't going to allow you to change, for example, a ring with crit and expertise, for a ring with crit and armor pen. Even without the weapon, changing this ring would be a DPS gain. In fact, I would worry more about gaining too much expertise from taking the sword because any expertise over the soft cap is absolutely worthless (i.e. 0 APE), thus increasing the gap between the two weapons.

I'm not saying that the BiS list is "wrong", I'm simply raising a point that the polearm may be slightly better for some than the sword.

Another thing to note is that nobody seems to have determined just how much expertise is required for Unholy. Since we have extra GCDs in our rotation it's not nearly as vital as, for example, blood. If I'm not mistaken, our rune cooldowns, 2/2 epidemic, and 3/3 reaping give us 2 extra GCDs per rotation. This would indicate that we need only enough expertise to have no more than 2 of our special abilities dodged per rotation on average or we start to see a significant DPS loss.

Fyrestryke · 02/03/10, 1:59 PM

Originally Posted by lex-machina

If I'm not mistaken, our rune cooldowns, 2/2 epidemic, and 3/3 reaping give us 2 extra GCDs per rotation. This would indicate that we need only enough expertise to have no more than 2 of our special abilities dodged per rotation on average or we start to see a significant DPS loss.

To say "extra" GCDs isn't exactly accurate. If you are using proper AMS soaking techniques and/or have a revitalize going on you at all times you won't find yourself with many free GCDs at all. I don't even always have a GCD to pop my HoW in my rotation when utilizing these extra sources of RP.

lex-machina · 02/03/10, 2:36 PM

Originally Posted by Fyrestryke

To say "extra" GCDs isn't exactly accurate. If you are using proper AMS soaking techniques and/or have a revitalize going on you at all times you won't find yourself with many free GCDs at all. I don't even always have a GCD to pop my HoW in my rotation when utilizing these extra sources of RP.

It's completely accurate when describing the basic rotation. Those 'extra gcds' are the time that should be used to perform any of the maintenance/utility tasks you mentioned; HoW, BT/BS, AMS, etc, but when I'm at the top of my game and executing perfectly, I quite frequently find time when I have all my runes on CD, BS is up, HoW and AMS are on CD and I'm out of RP then I just wait, and I'm only running 18 expertise. It is this downtime that puts expertise at such a low APE value. This isn't a new idea and it's been discussed at length in this thread and I'm not disagreeing with the previous conclusions at all.

What I am saying, is that there is logic behind the idea that the 284 polearm may be slightly better itemized than the 284 2H sword. Whatever your side of the argument, it's close enough that a player may choose one over the other for reasons other than one being a greater DPS boost than the other, such as if the polearm drops first, or the sword would put someone over expertise cap (humans esp), or someone doesn't find having an ability dodged here or there annoying, or even if somebody likes the flavor text or model of the polearm better, it's not going to be a major loss over waiting for the sword.

Zinfadel · 02/03/10, 2:41 PM

IS it me, or does heroic Dual bladded butcher out perform Bryntroll?? About ~50%+ of my gear is 258 or higher, the rest is all 245. I seem to be getting more consistent and slightly higher dps w/ Butcher. Just curious if anyone else is finding the same results.

Breklin · 02/03/10, 2:55 PM

Originally Posted by lex-machina

It's completely accurate when describing the basic rotation. Those 'extra gcds' are the time that should be used to perform any of the maintenance/utility tasks you mentioned; HoW, BT/BS, AMS, etc, but when I'm at the top of my game and executing perfectly, I quite frequently find time when I have all my runes on CD, BS is up, HoW and AMS are on CD and I'm out of RP then I just wait, and I'm only running 18 expertise. It is this downtime that puts expertise at such a low APE value. This isn't a new idea and it's been discussed at length in this thread and I'm not disagreeing with the previous conclusions at all.

What I am saying, is that there is logic behind the idea that the 284 polearm may be slightly better itemized than the 284 2H sword. Whatever your side of the argument, it's close enough that a player may choose one over the other for reasons other than one being a greater DPS boost than the other, such as if the polearm drops first, or the sword would put someone over expertise cap (humans esp), or someone doesn't find having an ability dodged here or there annoying, or even if somebody likes the flavor text or model of the polearm better, it's not going to be a major loss over waiting for the sword.

Suggesting that it's a fine idea to pick up a weapon because you like the model in the context of a theorycrafting thread is pretty absurd. Your points are generally well-taken and it's a good rule of thumb that the more RP you can get from Revitalize, the more important expertise becomes. On your last Festergut kill vs. mine you had 128 RP gained from Revitalize while I had 464 - I sincerely doubt you would have had any 'dry spells' were you in my raid.

Logs for reference:
Yours: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
Mine: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

hunthrop · 02/03/10, 3:03 PM

So I obtained my 2-piece T10 last night and have been testing with the Reaping build. If my melee DMG is still above SS DMG does that mean that i do not have the gear requirements for the Reaping build yet? As i read that SS should be the top DMG attack for a reaping build. I am using the exact rotation listed on the main page and the reaping build from it also.

lex-machina · 02/03/10, 3:11 PM

Originally Posted by Breklin

Suggesting that it's a fine idea to pick up a weapon because you like the model in the context of a theorycrafting thread is pretty absurd. Your points are generally well-taken and it's a good rule of thumb that the more RP you can get from Revitalize, the more important expertise becomes. On your last Festergut kill vs. mine you had 128 RP gained from Revitalize while I had 464 - I sincerely doubt you would have had any 'dry spells' were you in my raid.

Logs for reference:
Yours: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
Mine: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Hmm, very good point, I should perhaps have a little talk with our resto druids

I appreciate the personal analysis. Revitalize aside though, that was an awful kill, an exercise in Murphy's Law, on my part and others. I was almost hoping for a wipe so I could not screw up so bad the second time.

Yes, the comment about the model was absurd, and kind of meant to be that way. If anything I'm trying to spur some discussion on the itemization of the Lich King weapons, and on expertise in particular which seems to be an area of discussion that hasn't had enough attention paid to. Specifically, "how much expertise is enough?" and now I'm thinking about how much does the value of expertise when enough RP is being generated to fill all GCDs with maintenance abilities and DCs.

Moaradin · 02/03/10, 4:49 PM

Originally Posted by hunthrop

So I obtained my 2-piece T10 last night and have been testing with the Reaping build. If my melee DMG is still above SS DMG does that mean that i do not have the gear requirements for the Reaping build yet? As i read that SS should be the top DMG attack for a reaping build. I am using the exact rotation listed on the main page and the reaping build from it also.

Are you adding up the Physical and Shadow portions of the strike? World of Logs still has them separated and if I'm not mistaken, Recount still does too.

Complicated · 02/03/10, 8:42 PM

With the new Lich King weapons released I've been trying to figure out what weapon to go for next in a Non-Shadowmourne setup.

My sim is putting HC Bryntroll above HC Cryptmaker as an Orc, can anyone confirm this as the BiS list used to say otherwise.

Obviously [Glorenzelg, High-Blade of the Silver Hand] or [Oathbinder, Charge of the Ranger-General] are the ultimate goal,

but looking at the Lich King difficulty this will still be far off (Maybe allowing a second [Shadowmourne] to be created even before we kill LK HC).

grosdawson · 02/03/10, 9:31 PM

hello there, what do you think about taking 2p of the tanking T10 set for fights when DnD is on top of use (or trash mobs)

+20% on DnD, do you think that it would compensate the lost of dps stats ?
i'll suggest to take legs and hands for expertise and hit on them

i'm pretty sure none dk dps had focused on that to test it so...
or maybe it will be always better to stay on 4pT9 for heavy aoe fights

what do you think ?

Seylina · 02/03/10, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by grosdawson

hello there, what do you think about taking 2p of the tanking T10 set for fights when DnD is on top of use (or trash mobs)

+20% on DnD, do you think that it would compensate the lost of dps stats ?
i'll suggest to take legs and hands for expertise and hit on them

i'm pretty sure none dk dps had focused on that to test it so...
or maybe it will be always better to stay on 4pT9 for heavy aoe fights

what do you think ?

I have no idea if the glyph and the set effect stack, but just for that arguement I'd assume so.
Losing 3% on all damage as well as some exrta DPS stats, I would always assume four piece t10 is the best for absolutely every situation.

Autoband · 02/03/10, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by Seylina

I have no idea if the glyph and the set effect stack, but just for that arguement I'd assume so.
Losing 3% on all damage as well as some exrta DPS stats, I would always assume four piece t10 is the best for absolutely every situation.

I actually thought of using 2pc + 20% bonus too for dps purposes. I already do so in my tankset and i can confirm they stack. That said, it might be worth it on trash, but the dps 4pc bonus as noted by Seylina is extremely good too, and you would have to drop it.

Complicated · 02/04/10, 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by grosdawson

hello there, what do you think about taking 2p of the tanking T10 set for fights when DnD is on top of use (or trash mobs)

+20% on DnD, do you think that it would compensate the lost of dps stats ?
i'll suggest to take legs and hands for expertise and hit on them

i'm pretty sure none dk dps had focused on that to test it so...
or maybe it will be always better to stay on 4pT9 for heavy aoe fights

what do you think ?

This isn't so hard to calculate, let's standardize using Anub parses with none of the mentioned set bonusses in action:

Ability
Death & Decay
Blood Plague
Frost Fever
avg %
~20%
~15%
~15%

Now before comparing stats on the tiers themselves lets calculate the value in an AoE fight:

4pc T10: 100% x 3% = 3% total damage increase

2pc Tank T10: 20% x 20% = 4% total damage increase

4pc T9: 15% x ~50% = 7,5% total damage increase

Conclusion: T10[277] > T9[258] > T9[245] > T10[264] > T10[251] > T10Tank

If anyone's interested in going more in depth about stats, feel free to question my math.

h311ion · 02/04/10, 3:33 AM

Originally Posted by Complicated

Also it's pretty safe to say there won't be such an AoE heavy fight like Anub in ICC, favouring T10 even more.

Lich King is an extremely AoE heavy fight. Sindragosa is as well to some extent, lots of Frost Tombs to AoE until the 30% phase hits.