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Old 02/04/10, 4:01 PM   #2476
Illandras
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Draenor (EU)
Originally Posted by Lugz View Post
edit: Just did a second target dummy test, this time around 10 minutes long. The Drain Life proc made up about 5.6% of my dps, which is typical. In my opinion, I think people are citing bad rng as a nerf. But it might be something we keep our eyes open for.
You can't test Bryntroll accurately on a dummy since the proc is flat, and not affected by buffs in a raid, therefore it will be a higher % of your total damage done, what you can test though, is the procrate.

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Old 02/04/10, 4:06 PM   #2477
Lugz
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Dethecus
Well, I'm testing right now on a target dummy to see if it procs off of diseases. I'm not sure the best way to do this, so I've just been casting PS and IT. I did notice on one test, that Plague Strike appeared to proc drain life. There was no melee swing before the proc, the only thing that could've proc'd it was PS.

Is there a better way that I can test the proc rate?

-edit: And even if Bryntroll is a flat proc, wouldn't buffs like Bloodlust/Windfury increase the overall damage from the proc, due to more swings?

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Old 02/04/10, 4:33 PM   #2478
Lucid
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Death Knight
 
Mug'thol
Originally Posted by Lugz View Post
Well, I'm testing right now on a target dummy to see if it procs off of diseases. I'm not sure the best way to do this, so I've just been casting PS and IT. I did notice on one test, that Plague Strike appeared to proc drain life. There was no melee swing before the proc, the only thing that could've proc'd it was PS.

Is there a better way that I can test the proc rate?

-edit: And even if Bryntroll is a flat proc, wouldn't buffs like Bloodlust/Windfury increase the overall damage from the proc, due to more swings?
I tested two ways (for the disease application). One was to use endless winter and spam chains of ice. The other was to use icy touch about a second after a melee swing. So this really only tests frost fever, but I would assume if frost fever doesn't work, neither would blood plague. This doesn't mean that plague strike would no longer work, but it would mean that you no longer get 2 chances from plague strike via the strike+disease. It seems like blizz just wants it to proc off physical attacks.

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Old 02/04/10, 4:46 PM   #2479
Lugz
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Dethecus
Hmm..well with your Endless Winter method, were you standing in melee range? I'm just wondering if you did the test at range, if it was possible for the Drain Life proc to not trigger due to being limited to melee range.

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Old 02/04/10, 4:48 PM   #2480
Archonel
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Shattered Hand
Originally Posted by Lugz View Post
Well, I'm testing right now on a target dummy to see if it procs off of diseases. I'm not sure the best way to do this, so I've just been casting PS and IT. I did notice on one test, that Plague Strike appeared to proc drain life. There was no melee swing before the proc, the only thing that could've proc'd it was PS.

Is there a better way that I can test the proc rate?

-edit: And even if Bryntroll is a flat proc, wouldn't buffs like Bloodlust/Windfury increase the overall damage from the proc, due to more swings?
Prior to the patch I was getting multiple procs on disease application/refresh, these procs came from pestilence application/refresh.


Post patch I get nothing. This is a ss of just icy touch spam in melee range for the proc, but without the facing to allow actual melee swings.



Procs via disease application are officially gone it seems.

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Old 02/04/10, 4:57 PM   #2481
Lugz
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Dethecus
Well, that's interesting. Guess I'll have to see tonight in ICC if it makes a noticeable difference in dps. If these changes stay, then I assume this is Blizzards way of forcing us to move on from proc weapons like Nibelung and Bryntroll. Oh well, suppose this just gives me more incentive to farm 25 saronites now.

But honestly, I don't think this will have a substantial effect on our dps due to the relatively low number of times were cast our diseases during a fight. Not sure how I would go about calculating that, but based on what i think was removed from possible procs, here is what we lost:

In any given minute of where we apply disease every 20 seconds, we lost 3 chances from BP application, 3 chances from IT, and 3 chances from FF application. So in total, 9 procs per minute. However, at only a ~11% proc rate, we're only looking at an average of 1-2 procs lost per minute. Please correct me if I'm wrong, which would not surprise me in the slightest.

edit- Okay, did a test just now to see if Plague Strike would proc Drain Life, and it does appear as though it does. All I did was use PS, and when I saw Drain Life proc, I checked my combat log. Usually, it was a melee attack that proc'd it, but there were several instances where the PS itself would proc the Drain Life. So, the application of BP, IT, and the application of FF have been removed. Meh

edit 2-@Archnoel: I did the same test, with no Drain Life procs. However, I'm still wondering if DL would proc anyway if we're positioning ourselves so that melee strikes can't occur. Honestly, I've never paid much attention to the actual behavior of the proc. Without me knowing if it follows the same melee rules, i.e. facing, positioning, etc, I'm still unsure as to whether or not this proc removal is real or not. But, without a doubt, at least the strike portion of PS proc's it.

Last edited by Lugz : 02/04/10 at 5:21 PM.

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Old 02/04/10, 5:23 PM   #2482
Buffie
Von Kaiser
 
Buffie's Avatar
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Akama
Originally Posted by Roujin View Post
I too am curious about this. I had spec'd into reaping and was using a 2p T10 and 2P T9 setup. My melee dmg was higher then my SS dmg on Saurfang. WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay

My thinking is that even with 2P T10, it doesn't become worthwhile to spec into reaping until you've reached a certain ArmPen rating. (For the above log I believe I was at about 24% armpen) What the magic armpen number is when it becomes worth while to switch from 4p T9 into 2P T10 and reaping I don't know. Apologies, I know assumptions are frowned upon here. Doing the math is something I don't even pretend to know how to approach.

Any guidance, or realignment in thinking, would be greatly appreciated here.

Couple more notes, I'm on a mac so running something like DK gear optimizer isn't an option. My current armory does not reflect what I was wearing during the above log.
As you seem to know, the real way to know is to sim & find out for sure. The point at which to swap to reaping won't be something so simple as "get X ArP, then go reaping." The easiest way to explain it is when the damage of 1 SS is far enough ahead of 2xBS to make up for the points you'll be moving to pick up reaping. This is a pretty simplified litmus test, since there are a few other factors such as the extra gcd per rotation (for example; reaping will gain value if you're getting a lot of RP from revitalize), so this isn't the ultimate solution, but it's a way to get a rough idea.

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Old 02/04/10, 5:35 PM   #2483
Bllets
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Death Knight
 
Stormscale (EU)
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (10man)

Festergut where i had to leave once due to Spore. Drain life was 2.1% of my total damage done.

3.7% on Marrowgar (Following through bonestorm), 3.5% on rotface and 3.0% on average for our Professor tries.


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Old 02/04/10, 5:46 PM   #2484
Pyrius
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Druid
 
Proudmoore
Looking at Roujin's log, I'm unsure he's using the Reaping rotation. There's an awful large number of blood strikes in relation to scourge strikes.

In my last DBS encounter, I used 51 SS and 26 BS. Roujin's log has 44 SS and 48 blood strikes. At the top of the WMO meters has Potlol with 40 SS and 19 BS.

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Old 02/04/10, 5:57 PM   #2485
Amroo
LF sun
 
Amroo's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Anub'arak (EU)
Originally Posted by Nahela View Post
That really isn't consistent with my data. There was no movement involved at all on those Saurfang logs.
I was saying that there is usually no meleeing if the boss is moved during summoning (e.g. Putricide). If the boss is not moved, it's as I get it pretty random if and how much it melees. So, it is consistent. It would be inconsistent if the boss was moved during summoning and there is still meleeing.

Originally Posted by Frozn View Post
You can be sure that I will never post something anymore. Your arrogance and snobism makes me feel sick, enjoy your idiot infractions. Your community just lost one of the best moonkin of the alliance (gearscore).

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Old 02/04/10, 6:24 PM   #2486
Lugz
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Dethecus
Originally Posted by Bllets View Post
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (10man)

Festergut where i had to leave once due to Spore. Drain life was 2.1% of my total damage done.

3.7% on Marrowgar (Following through bonestorm), 3.5% on rotface and 3.0% on average for our Professor tries.
Hmm...well do you have any logs from previous weeks, so the numbers could be compared?

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Old 02/05/10, 12:10 AM   #2487
Glutton
King Hippo
 
Glutton's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Kalecgos
It seems like there was a universal nerf to procs from debuffs. Casters are also noticing the change with Nibelung and I have personally tested it with Bryntroll and Retribution debuffs.

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Old 02/05/10, 1:29 AM   #2488
Yotka
Von Kaiser
 
Yotka's Avatar
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Ysondre (EU)
GoSS testing following the lead from another DK - gave practical results well above other glyphs for UH.

Basically, without a GoD, if you SS*3 then pestilence - you bypass the 9 second rule of GoSS - which allows you to disease roll and never have to re-apply PS/IT unless the situation demands for it.

Though, there is a problem of importance when it comes to pure single target fights... the pestilence at least needs to touch another mob.

Basically, the game is thinking that the diseases applied to the other mobs via pestilence are new un-GoSSed ones - this is applying to your primary target without even needing to switch targets.

If other Death Knights find similar results, it's going to be changing a lot of things where glyphs are concerned.

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Old 02/05/10, 2:25 AM   #2489
Sulika
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Bloodfeather (EU)
Originally Posted by Roujin View Post
I too am curious about this. I had spec'd into reaping and was using a 2p T10 and 2P T9 setup. My melee dmg was higher then my SS dmg on Saurfang. WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay

My thinking is that even with 2P T10, it doesn't become worthwhile to spec into reaping until you've reached a certain ArmPen rating. (For the above log I believe I was at about 24% armpen) What the magic armpen number is when it becomes worth while to switch from 4p T9 into 2P T10 and reaping I don't know. Apologies, I know assumptions are frowned upon here. Doing the math is something I don't even pretend to know how to approach.

Any guidance, or realignment in thinking, would be greatly appreciated here.

Couple more notes, I'm on a mac so running something like DK gear optimizer isn't an option. My current armory does not reflect what I was wearing during the above log.
Just looking at your logs you have 44 scourge strikes used and 48 blood strikes used. In a normal rotation your SS-BS ratio should be 2:1. Yours is more like 1:1. In an ideal rotation, you would have 54 SS and 28 BS for the same amount of runes. This would take SS from being 17.4% of your damage to being about 21.3% of your damage which would put SS above melee in your overall damage done.

So probably you are sometimes using BS-BS on the second half of your roation instead of SS which will have an associated reduction in SS as a percentage of your overall damage and with it an associated reduction in the relative value of the 2-piece T10 bonus. This is the area where theory collides with practice, a simulator never messes up its rotation whereas real people do and in some fights maintaining a perfect rotation just isn't practical.

Last edited by Sulika : 02/05/10 at 4:53 AM.

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Old 02/05/10, 3:56 AM   #2490
Alyse
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Priest
 
Sen'jin
Originally Posted by Yotka View Post
GoSS testing following the lead from another DK - gave practical results well above other glyphs for UH.

Basically, without a GoD, if you SS*3 then pestilence - you bypass the 9 second rule of GoSS - which allows you to disease roll and never have to re-apply PS/IT unless the situation demands for it.

Though, there is a problem of importance when it comes to pure single target fights... the pestilence at least needs to touch another mob.

Basically, the game is thinking that the diseases applied to the other mobs via pestilence are new un-GoSSed ones - this is applying to your primary target without even needing to switch targets.

If other Death Knights find similar results, it's going to be changing a lot of things where glyphs are concerned.
While this method does work, you will still have to refresh your diseases at some point. In a typical 20 second rotation, you would need to SS at least 7 times in order to never have your diseases fall off. This also means you would have to pestilence at least 2 times, occasionally 3, in order to achieve the extended duration on your diseases for each SS. This is obviously impossible, barring using ERW to achieve this rotation.

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