Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 174

Amroo · 02/15/10, 6:26 PM

Originally Posted by Valthero

Thank you for your great response, but I still have 1 more question, why do I see most the DKs enchanting 44 AP over 15 str, including the OP?

Basically, there are two reasons:

1) 44 AP is better as soon as you have AoE damage, since a part of the high value of Strength is due to the ghoul (which doesn't scale with non-strength AP, at all). In AoE situations the ghoul damage stays constant, while disease damage increases, shifting the AP-weight of strength slightly in favour of AP. Since the difference is ~1 AP to begin with, this makes 44 AP the equal or better enchant for AoE situations.

2) 15 Strength is a BC enchant, the mats are on most servers harder to get / more expensive than 44 AP. Since the difference on single target is only 1 AP, most people probably simply ignore it.

Glutton · 02/15/10, 7:02 PM

Originally Posted by Shrakz

Rets are at a good place.

Ret is a relative outlier in that chart because we have a trinket that's severly bugged in our favor. Think Bryntroll before the first nerf. I'm not sure why Blizzard has yet to fix it, but when they do expect those numbers to drop by ~500. We'll probably return to being neck and neck with Unholy in single target.

Originally Posted by Shrakz

Ferals are about 2% higher than where they should be.

I'm not sure if you filtered it, but many ferals start the encounter as a bear and take one or two stacks of the +% damage tank buff. Some extreme examples can be found on WMO where they shoot up to 15k DPS with 9 stacks (+90% damage).

nhlkdog411 · 02/15/10, 7:12 PM

Originally Posted by Glutton

Ret is a relative outlier in that chart because we have a trinket that's severly bugged in our favor. Think Bryntroll before the first nerf. I'm not sure why Blizzard has yet to fix it, but when they do expect those numbers to drop by ~500. We'll probably be neck and neck with Unholy in single target.

I'm not sure if you filtered it, but many ferals start the encounter as a bear and take one or two stacks of the +% damage tank buff. Some extreme examples can be found on WMO where they shoot up to 15k DPS.

I'm not sure why he singled out feral anyway...Fury is really the true outlier amongst melee hybrids..if you look at fury on numerous fights they're a pretty good chunk ahead of all melee except rogues and they're pretty damn close to rogues

Shrakz · 02/15/10, 7:50 PM

Originally Posted by Glutton

Ret is a relative outlier in that chart because we have a trinket that's severly bugged in our favor. Think Bryntroll before the first nerf. I'm not sure why Blizzard has yet to fix it, but when they do expect those numbers to drop by ~500. We'll probably return to being neck and neck with Unholy in single target.

I'm not sure if you filtered it, but many ferals start the encounter as a bear and take one or two stacks of the +% damage tank buff. Some extreme examples can be found on WMO where they shoot up to 15k DPS with 9 stacks (+90% damage).

I haven't filtered it but I have done the same chart for Saurfang 25 and will post it after my raid tonight. For the most part I get roughly the same numbers (except for warriors who are higher because they get so much rage when they get the mark)

neomasterc · 02/15/10, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by jbs89

Should I use Inscribed Ametrine for anytime an item meets the table criteria, or IF there is a red socket AND a yellow socket

Yes. It is a theoretical dps increase. However, one may argue that gemming str is better due to less reliance on RNG, but in the long run, str/crit will win out.

Shrakz · 02/15/10, 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by nhlkdog411

I'm not sure why he singled out feral anyway...Fury is really the true outlier amongst melee hybrids..if you look at fury on numerous fights they're a pretty good chunk ahead of all melee except rogues and they're pretty damn close to rogues

I didn't mean to single out Feral, I just didn't phrase the warrior comment that well. Obviously Fury warriors are almost as high as rogues so you're completely right on that. But again, they get a decent amount of free rage from raid damage in the Festergut fight.

Here is the same chart for Saurfang 25: Almost the same numbers (or at least not too many differences considering the small samples). Fury warriors shine in this fight especially when they get the mark. Of course an Unholy DK is great to apply Ebon Plague to the blood beasts.

Originally Posted by Glutton

I'm not sure if you filtered it, but many ferals start the encounter as a bear and take one or two stacks of the +% damage tank buff. Some extreme examples can be found on WMO where they shoot up to 15k DPS with 9 stacks (+90% damage).

After a little bit more digging, it turns out that WoL doesnt register these kills as feral-cat DPS but, oddly, as feral-bear DPS. the 15k+ attempts can be found there.

jbs89 · 02/16/10, 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by neomasterc

Yes. It is a theoretical dps increase. However, one may argue that gemming str is better due to less reliance on RNG, but in the long run, str/crit will win out.

Thanks, yes I agree that STR will provide the upfront payload, but i think that crit can (will?) pull ahead.

Valtiel · 02/16/10, 4:17 AM

Originally Posted by Shrakz

I didn't mean to single out Feral, I just didn't phrase the warrior comment that well. Obviously Fury warriors are almost as high as rogues so you're completely right on that. But again, they get a decent amount of free rage from raid damage in the Festergut fight.

Here is the same chart for Saurfang 25: Almost the same numbers (or at least not too many differences considering the small samples). Fury warriors shine in this fight especially when they get the mark. Of course an Unholy DK is great to apply Ebon Plague to the blood beasts.

ICC will see the usual warrior scaling problems, amplified by the changes to HS (which isn't a threat issue anymore). Marrowgar dps logs are a good show, there's a modicum of cleave opportunity and fundamentally an unlimited amount of rage income and warriors basically seem to outscale even rogues.

UH seems fine, in all honesty. DKs are in the lower echelon of melee hybrids but the difference between the various classes is thin enough to probably warrant no interest on Blizzard's part.

micronSD · 02/16/10, 5:23 AM

Originally Posted by Angelababy

Then Blood DKs would be far better than Unholy DKs. It's only a matter of time until Blood spec catches up.

Why? SS scales VERY well with almost every form of damage increase we can think of. I dont have anything to back this up, but I would guess that SS scales better than both HS and Death Strike. Many Blood DKs were Blood before 3.3, and thus were already stacking ArP gear. Many Unholy DKs werent (just look at Consider...whose sporting 575 ArP). In a month or so, the average Unholy DK will have very similar ArP numbers to Blood players. I think the parses will be much more indicative of actual damage around that time.

Algroth · 02/16/10, 6:12 AM

Shrakz, another thing you may have overlooked is the buffs those ranked players were getting during their respective encounters. There could easily be things such as Tricks of the Trade, Hysteria, etc. that are skewing the numbers. Also it is a little early for comparison since people are still swapping out for new pieces at a fairly substantial rate.

Just from looking at the unholy dk parses on WoL, there are a couple of fights (Saurfang comes to mind but don't quote me on this) where the top Unholy dps had 70-75% crit on SS and 6-8 Tricks of the Trade. In an ideal situation we would see the actual numbers without extra influences from in combat buffs, but as it stands the top numbers we see are largely dependent on RNG and how much the rogues in your guild like you.

Originally Posted by micronSD

Why? SS scales VERY well with almost every form of damage increase we can think of. I dont have anything to back this up, but I would guess that SS scales better than both HS and Death Strike. Many Blood DKs were Blood before 3.3, and thus were already stacking ArP gear. Many Unholy DKs werent (just look at Consider...whose sporting 575 ArP). In a month or so, the average Unholy DK will have very similar ArP numbers to Blood players. I think the parses will be much more indicative of actual damage around that time.

On average, Blood has about 80% of its damage increased by armor pen, whereas Unholy has around 60%, not including ghoul (last time I checked). Since the value of armor pen increases with your current value, near the armor pen cap blood indeed has the potential to pull ahead. I did some sim / spec testing and these are my results using my gear (this next part is just a copy/paste from my guild forums)

I ran my current stats through the latest simulator (Kahorie's) and found some interesting results.
In order: stats, unholy, blood, stats, unholy(arp gemming), blood (arp gemming)

2120 str
212 agi
15306 armor
66 haste
410 ap
236 hit
802 arp
975 crit rat
165 expt

EP AttackPower | 1 (0.68 DPS/per AP)
EP Strength | 3
EP Agility | 1.29
EP CritRating | 1.88
EP HasteEstimated | 1.68
EP HasteRating1 | 1.74
EP ArmorPenetrationRating | 2.5
EP ExpertiseRating | 1.65
BeforeMeleeHitCap<8% | 2.44
EP 2T10 | 332.81
EP 4T10 | 412.5
| Template | reaping
| Priority | Unholy
| Presence | Blood
| Sigil | Virulence
| RuneEnchant | FallenCrusader /
| Pet Calculation | True
DPS| 9607
--------
EP AttackPower | 1 (0.68 DPS/per AP)
EP Strength | 2.91
EP Agility | 1.53
EP CritRating | 2.06
EP HasteEstimated | 1.59
EP HasteRating1 | 1.85
EP ArmorPenetrationRating | 3.32
EP ExpertiseRating | 3.5
BeforeMeleeHitCap<8% | 5.29
EP 2T10 | 301.54
EP 4T10 | 390.77
| Template | Blood 51-00-20-01-GoD
| Priority | Blood
| Presence | Blood
| Sigil | Virulence
| RuneEnchant | FallenCrusader /
| Pet Calculation | True
DPS| 9626
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

str from str gems -> arp
282

so try

1838 str
212 agi
15306 armor
66 haste
410 ap
236 hit
1084 arp
975 crit rat
165 expt

EP AttackPower | 1 (0.71 DPS/per AP)
EP Strength | 2.96
EP Agility | 1.24
EP CritRating | 1.77
EP HasteEstimated | 1.58
EP HasteRating1 | 1.66
EP ArmorPenetrationRating | 2.7
EP ExpertiseRating | 1.55
BeforeMeleeHitCap<8% | 2.25
EP 2T10 | 325
EP 4T10 | 389.71
| Template | reaping
| Priority | Unholy
| Presence | Blood
| Sigil | Virulence
| RuneEnchant | FallenCrusader /
| Pet Calculation | True
DPS| 9471
-------------------------------------
EP AttackPower | 1 (0.73 DPS/per AP)
EP Strength | 2.82
EP Agility | 1.48
EP CritRating | 1.97
EP HasteEstimated | 1.51
EP HasteRating1 | 1.92
EP ArmorPenetrationRating | 3.51
EP ExpertiseRating | 3.23
BeforeMeleeHitCap<8% | 4.61
EP 2T10 | 294.2
EP 4T10 | 371.01
| Template | Blood 51-00-20-01-GoD
| Priority | Blood
| Presence | Blood
| Sigil | Virulence
| RuneEnchant | FallenCrusader /
| Pet Calculation | True
DPS| 9681
-----------------------------------------------
So basically this substantiates what my napkin math predicted about a month ago just from looking at the arp scaling tables (Armor penetration - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft - note percentages not rating values). Since blood has ~80% physical vs the ~60% physical of unholy, at arp levels ~800-900 blood should start outscaling unholy. ~700-800 is also where for blood it is more dps to gem straight arp over str. The main drawback is that blood has a substantial portion of its sim damage coming from the summoned ghoul, and since it doesn't have aoe reduction it will usually go splat on many fights and not even be worth the global (on one marrowgar kill as blood the ghoul did a total of 4k damage because it kept dying in fire). Also a consideration is on movement fights blood loses a lot more dps than unholy does (again largely because of the ghoul, but disease damage is more significant as well). However, judging by the trends it looks like at the moment, it looks like once we hit ~900 arp it really becomes a tossup between blood and unholy for single target raid dps. Really it will come down to the encounter length because blood dps is maximized when the encounter ends immediately after a hysteria. However, it is my opinion that once you can reach the blood arp cap of 1260 rating through gems/gear, blood will start pulling far enough ahead of unholy to justify consistently respecing for single target encounters, but unholy will still be on top for quite a few fights since blood can be fairly situational depending on length, movement required, and the number of targets.

Another consideration is depending on your guild's desire to maximize raid dps and/or you have a feral druid raid leader, if you go blood there is a decent chance they will ask you to put hysteria on the feral since Berserk is a stronger dps cooldown than DRW.

Nahela · 02/16/10, 6:24 AM

Originally Posted by micronSD

Why? SS scales VERY well with almost every form of damage increase we can think of. I dont have anything to back this up, but I would guess that SS scales better than both HS and Death Strike. Many Blood DKs were Blood before 3.3, and thus were already stacking ArP gear. Many Unholy DKs werent (just look at Consider...whose sporting 575 ArP). In a month or so, the average Unholy DK will have very similar ArP numbers to Blood players. I think the parses will be much more indicative of actual damage around that time.

This has been said since the start of 3.3 and has been shown to be untrue. The gear is coming in and as more players acquire better gear, more logs are showing Blood catching up and/or passing Unholy. Unholy will never have as much ArP as Blood as Blood players are generally gemming for ArP now. Gemming for ArP will generally never be a good alternative for Unholy as too much else is sacrificed. The fact is that Unholy just isn't scaling as well as it originally seemed, partly due to it not actually taking all of the 'double dip' (god I hate that term) that it was originally supposed to. This would have been entirely true with the original incarnation of 3.3 SS, but not after the immediate nerf. The scaling took a huge hit at that point.

Unholy is certainly far from 'bad' (it's very good in fact), I just expect Blood to overtake Unholy entirely again in terms of single-target in the near future. Personally I'll like be building two sets to swap between with specs depending on the fight.

lukaszzurek · 02/16/10, 8:56 AM

Do we know when when in ICC Sigil of the Hanged Man beats Sigil of Virulence? In fights like festgut, blood queen its clear, but I wonder how it looks at Lord Marrowgar, Profressor, Sindragosa or LK?

Artazoth · 02/16/10, 10:31 AM

I've done both Kahories sim and dk optimizer and I'm trying to figure out what is best between Bryntroll and Warmace of Menthil for Unholy.

According to DK-O Bryntroll should be ahead, but Warmace scales better the more ArP you have. It's so hard to make a judgement since I have no idea how to compare Bryntroll proc to actual stats, something you have to do since I don't know if the latest DK-O takes into account the latest Bryntroll nerfs.
If I can take a guess it's that Warmace surpasses Bryntroll at a specific ArP value. Can anyone provide a rough estimate on when? Am I completely wrong here?

I tried to work a bit with stat scaling in Kahories. I got a ton of numbers and no idea what to make of them. It's troublesome that there's a lack of a good manual for these sims.

Mortak · 02/16/10, 11:07 AM

SS will never scale better than heartstrike or even deathstrike, simply because about 1/5th of SS dmg is basedmg which isnt affected by AP. Also crit scaling is worth (230% crit dmg vs. 245% crit dmg and much higher crit percentages thru talents for Unholy). So at least regarding strikes, blood should outscale unholy.

baccaa · 02/16/10, 12:16 PM

Ive read most parts of this forum and searched around for DBW in other sections and have yet to find anything about this...

Would it be ANY DPS increase at all to switch to Unholy Presence while under the effects of the 600 haste proc and to pop a Speed flask? Just picked it up last night and DK is my third alt so I'm not too up and up on the DK forums. I most likely will test it later tonight unless I get shot down in here.