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Old 02/24/10, 5:53 PM   #2731
Buffie
Von Kaiser
 
Buffie's Avatar
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Akama
Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3 View Post
Frost is the best sub-spec, if it goes live like it is now. I've modified the simulator and it's a good 150 dps above Blood (Assuming the ghoul gets the haste, too).
I'll mention the change here, for those like me that had to do a bunch of looking to figure out what you were referring to.

Icy Talons: The personal haste benefit provided by this talent is no longer exclusive with other sources of melee haste. This will allow death knights to always swing 4/6/12/16/20% faster when Frost Fever is applied. Windfury Totem and the party/raid component of Improved Icy Talons still do not stack.
At ~150 dps over the current spec, would the extra haste affecting the ghoul really tip the scale back in favor of blood? I tend to think that losing 20% ghoul haste wouldn't bring it down the full 150 it's leading by. Interesting stuff either way though.

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Old 02/24/10, 6:38 PM   #2732
Scuzoid
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Shadow Council
Also, is the 150 dps factoring in a pre-pot indestructible pot that won't happen anymore? Assuming your single target spec is something like 2/15/54.

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Old 02/24/10, 6:45 PM   #2733
Devloc
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Spinebreaker
I'd imagine 0/17/54 to grab the 4% extra str out of Endless Winter.

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Old 02/24/10, 6:50 PM   #2734
Scuzoid
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Shadow Council
Yeah, still used to that being for my pvp spec and nothing else.

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Old 02/24/10, 6:50 PM   #2735
Raivious
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Mannoroth
Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3 View Post
Frost is the best sub-spec, if it goes live like it is now. I've modified the simulator and it's a good 150 dps above Blood (Assuming the ghoul gets the haste, too).
What spec were you simming with?

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...9lA2UQS,,11599

Is the current base frost subspec I would expect to put points into. The only question is whether the last two would be best in Necrosis, Endless Winter, or Subversion?

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Old 02/24/10, 7:14 PM   #2736
Diablerotz
Glass Joe
 
Diablerotz's Avatar
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Warsong
Isnt Morbidity value increase aswell because of black ice?

Well, necrosis will also, with Black Ice+Icy talons..

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Old 02/24/10, 7:24 PM   #2737
Sulika
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Bloodfeather (EU)
Originally Posted by Savetheday View Post
People really under-estimate the value of glyph of disease. It's actually the best single target glyph of all 3 if used correctly and assuming you can convince a rogue to ToT you in the beggining.(you can easily gain an extra 75k+ dmg just from that one tot in a 5minute fight, which makes you the 2nd best target behind affliction locks for the first ToT.)

Not only that but on any fight where you'll pestilence the value of the glyph goes up quiet a bit. Remember the extra wandering plague dmg alone usually makes pestilence better then 1 blood strike assuming desolation will stay up.

On a fight where you can fish for cinderglacier procs during down-time GoD also gains some value.(Think Sindragosa during the air phase)

Here's a short-list of fights where I find GoD to be worthwhile even if I don't get the first ToT.

Marrowgar - makes it easier to keep full disease up during bone storm, also convenient when pestilencing to bone spikes.

Deathwhisper - Pretty obvious if you're cleaving down the adds, you'll be casting pestilence anyways.

Saurfang - You can sync it to refresh diseases and get EPB on all the adds with GoD.

Putricide - You'll quiet often be able to pestilence from ooze to putricide.

Sindragosa - Try to proc cinderglacier while she is in the air, you can keep 20% diseases rolling till next ground phase.

Lich King - You'll be constantly pestilencing to Valks, Ghouls, Vile Spirits anyways.

Blood Princes it can be useful on depending how far you tank the mobs apart. GoD is decent for Blood Queen(since SS is your best scaling ability, still might be worse then GoDD here though.) Rotface you might gain a bit extra wandering plague dmg but nothing worth noting. Festergut is the only fight where there is literally no benefit outside of what the glyph does/sims.


I really think people look at sims and under-value GoD. GoD is much more then it sims out to be...


About the lich king:

I could be wrong about this but I think Lich King has a priority casting system which is something along the lines of Vile Spirits > Infest > Defile > Soul Reaping. Valkyrs isn't something he casts but he won't cast anything while they are spawning. This is why when everything happens to come off cooldown at once you'll notice Infest > Defile > Soul Reaping all casted one after another. This may not be 100% correct, but from what I've noticed it's pretty consistent.
Ok, on my typical Festergut parses I see Frost Fever at 5.4% of my DPS, Blood Plague at 4.6% and Ebon Plague at 4.8% of my DPS. Lets round that up to 15% combined which would benefit from ToTT and/or Cinderglacer procs.

Now, in a perfect fight assuming I dropped GoDD and had ToTT at the start and never once let my diseases drop off the boss. The benefit I would see is a 15% increase in those numbers, going from 15% of my DPS to 17.25, a 2.25% DPS increase. To get this I have to give up 15% of my death coil damage (1.5% of my overall damage) and half my blood strikes, 2.7% of my overall damage. Even in the perfect situation with ToTT rolled the entire time GoD works out as a substantial DPS loss (about 2%).

In theory, if you could roll it with a cinderglacier proc the entire time too it would work out to a marginal DPS gain (around 0.5%) but I don't think that is really a practical option. Fishing for Cinderglacier procs has the problem that you need to avoid using any Frost or Shadow attack while you fish for fear of wasting the proc if you get it.

I would be very interested to see any Unholy parse on Festergut where 15% more on EP, FF + BP adds up to more than 15% of DC + 50% of BS damage. I will accept that if you could get Cinderclacier and ToTT up and roll both through the entire fight you will find situations where it is a marginal DPS increase but realistically I don't think anyone will be rolling both of those the entire time, it is just too impractical to get a cinderglacier proc at the start.

I have looked through several of the top unholy parses on that fight and can't find any where GoD + ToTT would add up to a DPS gain. Yes, in any AoE situation or on any boss where you will use pestillence anyway it will work out to a DPS gain but given that there is, basically, one single target fight where you can roll diseases non stop (assuming you dont have to move with the spore thingy) and that I can't find any parse on that fight where it would actually be a DPS gain I think it is fair to say that in practical situations GoD is not going to be a DPS gain on single target.

I think most people who think it is look at their death coils and diseases and think "wow, 15% more of my diseases would be a lot better than 15% more on my death coils" and forget about the 50% of their Blood Strikes they have to give up to cast pestilence once every 20 seconds.

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Old 02/24/10, 7:33 PM   #2738
Shaker
AUGH CHAMPION TIME
 
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Human Rogue
 
Elune
Originally Posted by Sulika View Post
Now, in a perfect fight assuming I dropped GoDD and had ToTT at the start and never once let my diseases drop off the boss. The benefit I would see is a 15% increase in those numbers, going from 15% of my DPS to 17.25, a 2.25% DPS increase. To get this I have to give up 15% of my death coil damage (1.5% of my overall damage) and half my blood strikes, 2.7% of my overall damage. Even in the perfect situation with ToTT rolled the entire time GoD works out as a substantial DPS loss (about 2%).
While you do lose a Blood Strike to Pestilence, you also gain a Scourge Strike from not having to use F and U runes to refresh diseases.

You of course, lose the damage from Plague Strike and Icy Touch to get that Scourge Strike, but that is obviously a DPS gain - whether it's enough to make up the difference is obviously the question.

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

Kurisu's BSG Reference Sheet

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Old 02/24/10, 7:34 PM   #2739
stormspirit
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Khaz'goroth
I'm curious whether or not reaping will still be taken with the proposed frost sub-spec? Will the dps increase from black ice per point for Morbidity and Necrosis make them more collectively viable than 3 points in Reaping.

Something like this?

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...9,HpFOe3,11599

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Old 02/24/10, 7:40 PM   #2740
dr_AllCOM3
Great Tiger
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Blutkessel (EU)
Whoops, I've made a mistake with the 3.3.3 talent build. Subversion was still turned on. Blood is still the best sub-spec for Unholy.


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Old 02/24/10, 8:07 PM   #2741
micronSD
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Nesingwary
What about moving 2 points from Wandering Plague over to Subversion for a 3/17/51 build? I dont like dropping Wandering Plague points, but it could work out on single target (and the threat reduction is always nice).

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Old 02/24/10, 8:58 PM   #2742
Savetheday
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Ysondre
Originally Posted by Sulika View Post
Ok, on my typical Festergut parses I see Frost Fever at 5.4% of my DPS, Blood Plague at 4.6% and Ebon Plague at 4.8% of my DPS. Lets round that up to 15% combined which would benefit from ToTT and/or Cinderglacer procs.

Now, in a perfect fight assuming I dropped GoDD and had ToTT at the start and never once let my diseases drop off the boss. The benefit I would see is a 15% increase in those numbers, going from 15% of my DPS to 17.25, a 2.25% DPS increase. To get this I have to give up 15% of my death coil damage (1.5% of my overall damage) and half my blood strikes, 2.7% of my overall damage. Even in the perfect situation with ToTT rolled the entire time GoD works out as a substantial DPS loss (about 2%).

In theory, if you could roll it with a cinderglacier proc the entire time too it would work out to a marginal DPS gain (around 0.5%) but I don't think that is really a practical option. Fishing for Cinderglacier procs has the problem that you need to avoid using any Frost or Shadow attack while you fish for fear of wasting the proc if you get it.

I would be very interested to see any Unholy parse on Festergut where 15% more on EP, FF + BP adds up to more than 15% of DC + 50% of BS damage. I will accept that if you could get Cinderclacier and ToTT up and roll both through the entire fight you will find situations where it is a marginal DPS increase but realistically I don't think anyone will be rolling both of those the entire time, it is just too impractical to get a cinderglacier proc at the start.

I have looked through several of the top unholy parses on that fight and can't find any where GoD + ToTT would add up to a DPS gain. Yes, in any AoE situation or on any boss where you will use pestillence anyway it will work out to a DPS gain but given that there is, basically, one single target fight where you can roll diseases non stop (assuming you dont have to move with the spore thingy) and that I can't find any parse on that fight where it would actually be a DPS gain I think it is fair to say that in practical situations GoD is not going to be a DPS gain on single target.

I think most people who think it is look at their death coils and diseases and think "wow, 15% more of my diseases would be a lot better than 15% more on my death coils" and forget about the 50% of their Blood Strikes they have to give up to cast pestilence once every 20 seconds.
Fishing for cinderglacier procs is fine as long as you don't nerf fallen crusader uptime.(or at least when it will matter)

You don't understand the benefits GoD provides. You'll end up with more dot ticks, more dot damage, and trading a blood strike, plague strike, and icy touch for a scourge strike and NOT clipping one of your dots.

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Old 02/24/10, 10:30 PM   #2743
Larisroth
Piston Honda
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Thaurissan
I like the Icy-Talons change. The talent would synergise really well with an unholy build. Of course the major issue with taking the tree for a dps subspec is still the weakness in the first tier. If fixing that was a desired goal then the obvious solution would be to have imp. icy touch also buff frost fever damage.

Black ice has been nerfed a bit in 3.3.3 in relation to other talents with the SS rebalancing.

GoD is usable on a few single target fights, but the problem is if you can use GoD to refresh your diseases then you should be able to twist diseases which gets you 97.5% of the ticks you'd get with GoD. So it comes down to having to roll those extra damage buffs and hoping the extra damage will outweigh the damage you lose in the rotation. In that respect as SS is buffed a bit in 3.3.3, GoD is a bit more competitive, but it's still not there for single target dps.

The feral druid is a different beast altogether.

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Old 02/24/10, 10:33 PM   #2744
Sulika
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Bloodfeather (EU)
Originally Posted by Savetheday View Post
Fishing for cinderglacier procs is fine as long as you don't nerf fallen crusader uptime.(or at least when it will matter)

You don't understand the benefits GoD provides. You'll end up with more dot ticks, more dot damage, and trading a blood strike, plague strike, and icy touch for a scourge strike and NOT clipping one of your dots.
Fishing for Cinderglacier procs will mean, in almost every situation, swapping in your old weapon with the cinderglacier enchant, thats going to be a DPS loss. You also lose at least two global cooldowns (for the weapon swaps) even if you are lucky and get it on the first swap, and, assuming you have a rogue sitting on his ToTT waiting to cast it on you, whatever cooldowns it takes between you yelling on vent "Hey, ToTT me now" and him casting it since you can't use any PS-IT or SS in that time without burning your Cinderglacier proc. You also have to subtract from the raid the DPS the rogue loses by saving his ToTT until you get the proc.

Just for curiosity how many times have you managed to roll two Cinderglacierd / ToTTed diseases for an entire fight? Can you link a log where it was successfully managed by anyone? I just suspect that it is a theoretical possibility but a practical nonentity.

Look through the top 20 unholy DK parses for Festergut on wow meters, every single one has 10-12 casts each of PS-IT. If glyph of disease was such a big DPS increase on single target wouldn't it stand to reason that at least one of the top 20 parses would use it? I don't think its a case of people looking at sims and undervaluing GoD, it's a case of people looking at reality and seeing its actual value. On Saurfang for example you will see plenty top parses with DKs rolling a single ToTT for the entire fight so obviously there are plenty of DKs capable of doing this, but not a single one of the top parses on Festergut, the only real single target fight in the game shows this. If the sims put it as a DPS loss, and the parses put it as a DPS loss then I would say the onus is on the person claiming it is a DPS gain single target to do the proving.

Again, you are not just giving up a PS + IT + BS for a SS + Pest, you also lose 5 runic power in that exchange, so you are giving up PS + IT + BS + 12.5% of a DC SS + Pest. On any parses I look at that works out to be a slight DPS loss.

Even on AoE fights for the most part it will be impossible to roll a ToTT boosted diseases for any length of time. Saurfang is probably the exception in ICC (ToC has a couple of fights where its practical), anytime you are switching to adds it is almost certain your original boosted diseases will fall off at some point. either that or you end up having to use pestilence more often than you should to keep the diseases rolling with the associated loss of BSes and DPS loss that would entail.

Without ToTT and perfect disease rolling never letting your diseases drop on a single target it will end up as a DPS loss whatever way I look at it.

Originally Posted by Larisroth View Post
GoD is usable on a few single target fights, but the problem is if you can use GoD to refresh your diseases then you should be able to twist diseases which gets you 97.5% of the ticks you'd get with GoD. So it comes down to having to roll those extra damage buffs and hoping the extra damage will outweigh the damage you lose in the rotation. In that respect as SS is buffed a bit in 3.3.3, GoD is a bit more competitive, but it's still not there for single target dps.
I can't see disease twisting as a DPS gain either. No matter how you cut it you are turning your 20 second rotation into a 21 second rotation to gain 1 tick on 1 disease. That means giving up 5% of your special ability damage. Since most Unholy DKs will have about 40% of their DPS as special ability damage thats a 2% dps loss. On your diseases you go from 12 ticks per 20 seconds to 13 ticks per 21 seconds. Thats an increase of (13 / 12 * 20 / 21) = ~3.2% in your disease damage. You are losing 2% of your overall damage (by losing 5% of your special ability usage due to rotation stretching) to gain 3.2% in part of your damage. Your diseases would have to be accounting for over 60% of your overall damage for that to work out as a DPS gain, in short, it is a DPS loss.

Think about it logically, there is literally no way your first cast disease can tick 7 times per rotation unless that rotation is 21 seconds in length. In fact, since your rotation is becoming 21 seconds anyway with disease twisting you would be better served just waiting the extra second and not clipping either disease (though it would still be a DPS loss).

Take for example the rotation:

PS-IT-SS...
IT-PS-SS...
PS-IT-SS...
IT-PS-SS...
It looks nice but the reality is it becomes:

PS-IT-SS...
   IT-PS-SS...
      PS-IT-SS...
         IT-PS-SS...
You leak a GCD everytime you swap diseases. There is no way around this. I think you are imagining it would work something like:

PS-IT-SS...
   IT-PS-SS...
PS-IT-SS...
   IT-PS-SS...
But it can't work, for that to happen your Unholy rune would have to come off cooldown 3 seconds early when you switch back to PS-IT. That is not going to happen.

You could potentially achieve something similar if you delayed the start of the second rotation by 1 second and abused the two second rule. Then those runes would effectively come off cooldown 9 seconds after you use them. You would basically be alternating between a 21 second rotation and a 19 second rotation abusing the two second rule to make the latter possible. If you do that then you could get both diseases ticking 7 times on the first rotation and 6 on the second but the margin for error would be pretty tight. You still would not disease twist as it is listed here though, anytime you go from PS-IT to IT-PS your first rune will be getting used 3 seconds after it first came off cooldown, you leak a GCD every time and that stretches your rotation by a GCD and will be a hefty DPS loss.

Last edited by Sulika : 02/25/10 at 1:22 AM.

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Old 02/25/10, 1:49 AM   #2745
Raivious
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Mannoroth
It was mentioned that disease twisting is being used in conjunction with empower rune weapon (that's how I've been doing it). Empower Rune weapon is quite peculiar in that it sets up your frost and unholy rune to refresh at the same time that means that you're technically not holding back and waiting for a rune to refresh. From my experience it has worked nicely on bosses where you can keep it up and the second dot is almost immediately being refreshed as soon as it drops from the target.

About not having blood plague for RoR, also any death knight's blood plague on the boss should contribute to your bonus so you are not losing out on it if you have other death knights in raid.

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