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Old 02/25/10, 2:19 AM   #2746
Sulika
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Bloodfeather (EU)
Originally Posted by Raivious View Post
It was mentioned that disease twisting is being used in conjunction with empower rune weapon (that's how I've been doing it). Empower Rune weapon is quite peculiar in that it sets up your frost and unholy rune to refresh at the same time that means that you're technically not holding back and waiting for a rune to refresh. From my experience it has worked nicely on bosses where you can keep it up and the second dot is almost immediately being refreshed as soon as it drops from the target.

About not having blood plague for RoR, also any death knight's blood plague on the boss should contribute to your bonus so you are not losing out on it if you have other death knights in raid.
Ah yeah, I could see how it might work in that situation. But it seems incredibly vulnerable to any sort of delay, falling behind by even half a GCD on refreshing your diseases at any point would take one of them out of the two second rule. I would be curious to know how long you can keep that going and whether the situational cost of maintaining it by, for example, not casting a death coil or HoW when you dont have a full GCD before you refresh diseases to avoid unsyncing the runes ends up costing more than the benefit you gain.

Now that I think of it you could force the same sync by waiting an extra half gcd on the first SS of the 2nd half of your first rotation to sync the FU runes. If you had extra runic power to dump at the time it would possibly end up not even being a DPS loss to do so.

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Old 02/25/10, 3:15 AM   #2747
Malcophant
Piston Honda
 
Goblin Mage
 
Bleeding Hollow
Originally Posted by Sulika View Post
Ah yeah, I could see how it might work in that situation. But it seems incredibly vulnerable to any sort of delay, falling behind by even half a GCD on refreshing your diseases at any point would take one of them out of the two second rule. I would be curious to know how long you can keep that going and whether the situational cost of maintaining it by, for example, not casting a death coil or HoW when you dont have a full GCD before you refresh diseases to avoid unsyncing the runes ends up costing more than the benefit you gain.

Now that I think of it you could force the same sync by waiting an extra half gcd on the first SS of the 2nd half of your first rotation to sync the FU runes. If you had extra runic power to dump at the time it would possibly end up not even being a DPS loss to do so.
I think mostly due to the 2 second rule, it is very very simple to pull off disease twisting. The only delay I've seen is occasionally waiting a fraction of a second for a disease to tick before reapplying, but that only happens with very high haste (glove enchant) and/or bloodlust. In my experience, the hardest thing about it is getting out of the groove of applying one disease first every time.

It is a different story if you do it without empower rune weapon, as you will end up waiting on runes and possibly losing DPS.

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Old 02/25/10, 5:40 AM   #2748
Larisroth
Piston Honda
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Thaurissan
Originally Posted by Malcophant View Post
I think mostly due to the 2 second rule, it is very very simple to pull off disease twisting. The only delay I've seen is occasionally waiting a fraction of a second for a disease to tick before reapplying, but that only happens with very high haste (glove enchant) and/or bloodlust. In my experience, the hardest thing about it is getting out of the groove of applying one disease first every time.

It is a different story if you do it without empower rune weapon, as you will end up waiting on runes and possibly losing DPS.
Well you can do it without ERW if you use your second set of FU runes or as I do it, with your death runes to put up the diseases.

The feral druid is a different beast altogether.

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Old 02/25/10, 7:52 AM   #2749
Scuzoid
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Shadow Council
Originally Posted by Sulika View Post
You leak a GCD everytime you swap diseases. There is no way around this. I think you are imagining it would work something like:

PS-IT-SS...
   IT-PS-SS...
PS-IT-SS...
   IT-PS-SS...
This is exactly how it works. Rune memory is what makes this happen. In a perfect rotation standing still with no outside RP gen forcing additional GCD's, your first set of UF runes will always cooldown plague then frost no matter how often you disease twist. What happens is you end up with a 21 rune second rotation, then a 19 rune second rotation, then a 21 second rune rotation. Disease twisting works just fine.

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Old 02/25/10, 9:30 AM   #2750
Mathrix
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Illidan
What are the thoughts on 277 Bryntroll vs Shadow's Edge? I got it this week because no one else really wanted it and I said I would give it a shot/pvp with it. Obviously strikes hit for about the same amount and I think the proc did 50-75k over an entire Heroic Rotface. Just not sure the extra socket, 30 dps and the proc make up for losing almost 100 arp and crit, now if it was slower....

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Old 02/25/10, 10:25 AM   #2751
Nyth_
Piston Honda
 
Troll Hunter
 
Moonglade (EU)
Originally Posted by Sulika View Post
I can't see disease twisting as a DPS gain either. No matter how you cut it you are turning your 20 second rotation into a 21 second rotation to gain 1 tick on 1 disease.
I think you miss how the trick works.

You don't refresh your diseases at 21 seconds.

You refresh your longest remaining disease at 18.1 seconds (2.9 seconds remaining), and then your other disease just ran out as you refresh it.
Ebon Plaguebringer never drops, and Rage of Riverdare only drops once every 40 seconds, and that's assuming there is no other unholy DK in the group.

There are 2 ways to do it:
1. Use ERW at the start of the fight, this is particulary effective if you pop a gargoyle in your first rotation, which most do. Simply use:
IT>PS>SS>BS>BS >Garg >ERW
SS>DC>SS>SS>DC
PS>IT>SS>BS>BS>etc
(note due to ERW your BS come after your UF runes, thats the reason i put SS before the BS's; the dps loss is neglectable over the course of a fight anyway)

2. Use another set of runes that refresh at the same time. That means you reapply your diseases in your first rotation.

-------

I've done this successfully for entire fights, because once you get used to it it's really simple. ICC has enough fight where you never break combat (Saurfang / Festergut), so you can use the ERW methode. On the fights where you do break you can swap to methode 2.

The gain is pretty significant too. Because with this methode you eliminate the extended downtime in diseases you normally get.

Normally you get a tack at 18 seconds. Since you refresh both diseases at 20 seconds, the next tick happens at 23 seconds. That is 5 seconds without disease ticks.
This methode eliminates that 2 seconds of down time on both diseases totally (or reduce it to 0.1-0.3 seconds extra), meaning you get nearly an extra disease tick per rotation for both diseases.
Instead of 6 ticks you get 7 ticks. Thats a 16.67% increase in disease damage (and WP damage ?), Not really sure how much diseases account for but that's an easy 1-2% dps increase for nearly no effort.
Yes you might lose RoR on your blood plague application every 40 seconds, but that loss doesn't compare to the gain.

Potlol's post still gives a good indication of how the system works;
http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t72364-u...7/#post1544510

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Old 02/25/10, 11:49 AM   #2752
dric
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Barthilas
I have a question in regards to unholy dps burst.

Is there like a specific rotation that uses ERW + Blood Tap + gargoyle to get like a maximum burst? I'm trying to do a max burst on a test dummy but I'm confused on how to do so...

I'm using 14/0/57 non reaping rotation btw.

Last edited by dric : 02/25/10 at 11:59 AM.

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Old 02/25/10, 3:24 PM   #2753
Omedus
Glass Joe
 
Omedus's Avatar
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Thrall
Originally Posted by dric View Post
I have a question in regards to unholy dps burst.

Is there like a specific rotation that uses ERW + Blood Tap + gargoyle to get like a maximum burst? I'm trying to do a max burst on a test dummy but I'm confused on how to do so...

I'm using 14/0/57 non reaping rotation btw.
this rotation would provide a tremendous amount of burst.

as the fight starts:

Haste Pot/Blood Fury, Army...


IT-PS-BS-BS-SS-Gargoyle-ERW-SS-SS-SS-DC-Blood Tap-BS-SS

IT-PS-BS-BS-SS-DC(HoW)DC-SS

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Old 02/25/10, 4:34 PM   #2754
Spiattalo
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Jaedenar (EU)
I have a question about Ebon Gargoyle I couldn't find an answer to: I know it scales with our AP and Haste, but what about Crit? Would the increase given by Deathbringer's Will proc improve it?

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Old 02/25/10, 4:36 PM   #2755
Decay
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Dath'Remar
It doesnt scale with crit, just ap and haste.

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Old 02/25/10, 4:59 PM   #2756
Larisroth
Piston Honda
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Thaurissan
I ran a few sims in the latest svn version of the simulator, to look at the new icy talons talent.
I used a twisting rotation with 45 extra rp per 45 seconds, and a slightly buffed version of my current gear. (around ilvl 264). A 0/15/56 build (points stolen from necrosis) was within about 10 dps of the standard 12/0/59 build. So the two subspecs are rather close. In addition, I overloaded my talents and calculated their value.

Blood 
Butchery 44.5
Subversion 71
BladedArmor 74.2
Weapspec 114.5
Darkconv 69.6
Frost 
ImprovedIcyTouch 10
RPM 22.5
BlackIce 74.8
IcyTalons 106.8
Unholy 
Virulence 24.67
Morbidity 64
Outbreak 167
Necrosis 92.2
BloodCakedBlade 123.33
UnholyBlight 133
Impurity 98.6
Dirge 117
Desolation 97
BoneShield 207
WanderingPlague 120.33
RageofRivendare 138.6

Where I've removed some of the no-brainer talents in the unholy tree.

This isn't ideal obviously as some talents will boost other talents but can give us a rough idea of where to make the trade offs. With the change Icy Talons is suddenly one of the best optional talents if you can get to it. Unfortunately the first tier of frost is still incredibly weak, even with the extra RP around boosting the value of RPM. Incidentally for a non-unholy build the first tier of unholy would also be rather weak.

In general the optional unholy talents are all rather strong. Morbidity is the weakest for single target DPS but is obviously one of the best AE talents out there. Necrosis is usually the next place to steal points and then the analysis suggests either desolation or impurity.

ETA:
I missed the new Endless Winter that works out as an even better talent for unholy than icy talons, so the best frost spec would be some form of 0/17/54. Running with a slightly modified version of the ICC 2H set (as an orc) I'm getting comparably dps to a standard build using just the standard unholy priority.
The disease ticks are hitting about 8% harder, so it's a bit better AE build than the standard one.

Last edited by Larisroth : 02/25/10 at 6:20 PM.

The feral druid is a different beast altogether.

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Old 02/25/10, 5:46 PM   #2757
Feru
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Exodar
If you're going to consider Frost as a subspec, why not consider taking another 2 points from Unholy and picking up Endless Winter (0/17/54)?

4% strength for 2 talent points is hot, and it provides some interrupt utility too.

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Old 02/25/10, 7:06 PM   #2758
Consider
King Hippo
 
Consider's Avatar
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Dragonblight
After much testing, at current gear levels (which, to be more exact, I simply used my own) I essentially got the following breakdown:

Sub-Frost + Reapingless > Sub-Blood + Reaping > Sub-Blood + Reapingless > Sub-Frost + Reaping

Frost Reapingless pulls ahead of Blood Reaping by about 50 dps. It's certainly possible that the latter will pull ahead in BiS, but it does have a decent gap to cover, especially when you consider I'm already using a 277 weapon, and the weapon was the largest factor in whether or not one took Reaping.

At any rate, the exact build would be 0/17/54. The glyphs are intentional: GoBS pulls ahead of GoDD by about 5 dps.

Still testing other possibilities and how things change at different gear levels, but I'm relatively confident about the above.

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Old 02/25/10, 7:49 PM   #2759
micronSD
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Nesingwary
Wouldnt GoBS raise the value of Subversion quite significantly? Especially if were doing a Reaping-less build.

Edit: Also, does the Icy Talons haste affect our ghoul/gargoyle/aotd?

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Old 02/25/10, 7:54 PM   #2760
Consider
King Hippo
 
Consider's Avatar
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Dragonblight
Not really. The value of Subversion goes down from not taking Reaping (1 SS benefits more from 9% crit than 2 BS does), so GoBS just balances things out. Besides, what would you drop for Reaping? Necrosis? Its value jumps from Icy Talons. Morbidity? Already not taken. Icy Talons? That's half the reason the spec changes. There's nothing bad to drop for it.

Yes, Icy Talons does affect pets.

Edit: No, UB doesn't cut it either. No, we don't take GoDD, but we do get BI. At any rate, it's still a clear winner over Subversion. UB is such a maligned talent!

Threat is a matter of opinion, of course. Even at, say, 10k dps, you're still only doing about 7k tps sans Subversion. It shouldn't be difficult for a tank to hold above that.

In an AoE spec, it might be worth it, due to the nature of DnD, but that's anotehr matter entirely.

Last edited by Consider : 02/25/10 at 8:04 PM.

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