Wouldn't that lower the uptime of 2pT9?

Maybe ever so incredibly slightly, but I kinda doubt it will be anything worth noting. Certainly not enough to cover the dps gap presented by the alternatives - of that I'm sure.

Look at how much the value of 2p t9 increased when we went from 2 Blood Strikes per 20 seconds (Oblit rotations) to 4 per 20 seconds (current rotation). It hardly changed. Going from 4 to 3 (not even that - more like 4 to 3.33, as you are only losing one per 60 seconds, not 20) is an even smaller shift, and as such will have an even more minor effect.

2p t9's ICD is the main reason it hardly matters. The uptime is already limited by that more than it is by how many times you Blood Strike.

Besides, 75% of the time you refresh Bone Shield 2p t9 will either be up or be on CD, anyways.

It really doesn't matter - not enough to change anything. If Blood Tapping + Bone Shielding is better to do in place of a Blood Strike without the set bonus, it's better to do it with the set bonus. The opposite as well - if it isn't better with the set bonus, it isn't better without the set bonus.

Yeah. I was thinking about replacing 1 BS with BT/BSh also but left it there since I pretty much forgot to think about it any further. Instead I tried to use IT/PS vs PS/IT on the rotation I was going to use BT/BSh to ensure that UH rune was still on CD when I used the macro.

I'll try it out. Should definetly at least feel smoother.

So, I've been a DK since the launch of WotLK and have tried just about every viable spec. Love the class. Been reading these forums since my rogue was my main, and this is my first forum post.

In the rotation in the OP you go IT-PS-SS-BS-BS-dump. Now, I tried this spec for the first time last night in 25 ToC, and did fantastic btw. But I was wondering why do SS before BS? I tried both ways (on purpose and by accident due to learning a new rotation) and found no difference in disease uptime or rune refresh cycles, but a sizable difference in my SS hits, obviously to getting desolation up sooner. Am I missing something or am I just crazy?

you use SS first because of the extremely high chance that the sigil will proc :p

There isn't a huge difference between blood strike or scourge strike first. As with BS first, you'll gain desolation and a chance to get the 2 piece set bonus to proc (50% proc chance, so with 2 BS it's likely to occur, but won't always of course), whereas with SS first you're practically guaranteed to proc the sigil (again not always though).

suggestion:

Consider could add both rotations with explanations of pros and cons of both to avoid this question.

Or someone could just compute which is mathmatically superior =p. There's no point in including both options when one of the two is definitely better. There's no "flavor" to one over the other or anything like that.

At any rate, the difference between the two is going to be incredibly minor, and which order you do doesn't even matter beyond the first ten seconds of the fight.

Also, Zef, it's not as simple as 180 str + 5% dmg or 200 str. The first is obviously superior. Two BS's have a smaller chance to proc 2p t9 than one SS has to proc the sigil. That said the first probably still wins out, but you also have to consider - it isn't 180 strength (at whatever proc rate) +5% damage or 200 strength (at whatever proc rate) - it's 180 strength + 5% damage to a SS and an autoattack or 200 strength to two Blood Strikes and an autoattack. It's not quite the same since two Blood Strikes scale differently than a single SS.

That all said and done, BS first probably still wins, doing the quick napkin math. Probably. I'll change it. The difference isn't even going to be 5 dps over the course of most fight, but regardless ^^. The reason SS was first was a relic of past builds (where you did want SS/Oblit first for a variety of reasons which no longer apply, for the most part).

Wall of Sims incoming (Part 2)

Looking at DW Unholy

I just did a few more simulations to find the best DW-Unholy Specs for everyone as I did for the 2H-Specs before. I will simulate the winning 2H Spec A (16-0-55) additionally so you are able to just directly compare the numbers in one table. Epidemic Builds for DW will be left out, as there should be same difference as with the 2H-Builds.
But I will sim the DC-Spam-Spec (with and without Dirge) with an optimized priority file, as the Standard is false.

Single-target and Multi-target are all things we have to consider when choosing a spec. I will do every simulation without any Set-Boni. Small adjustments for these boni could be made separately.

Stats used for all simulations:

<Strength>1863</Strength>
<Agility>324</Agility>
<Intel>58</Intel>
<Armor>13973</Armor>
<AttackPower>1257</AttackPower>
<HitRating>328</HitRating>
<CritRating>728</CritRating>
<HasteRating>345</HasteRating>
<ArmorPenetrationRating>312</ArmorPenetrationRating>
<ExpertiseRating>177</ExpertiseRating>

2x 1H-Weapon: 196.5 dps, 2.6 Speed
Or
2H Weapon: 255.7 dps, 3.6 Speed

Specs:

- 2HSpec A (16-0-55)

- DWSpec A (15-0-56) – You have one spare point here, so I just took one point in CE.

- DWSpec B (14-0-57 IUP)

- DWSpec C (3-13-55)

- DWSpec D (1-13-57 IUP)

- DWSpec E (0-13-58 Reaping IT)

- DWSpec F (0-17-54 DCSpam NoDirge) Using VengefulHeart instead of Virulence

- DWSpec G (14-0-57 DCSpam Dirge) Using VengefulHeart instead of Virulence

Rotations:

- RotaSingle1: PS-IT-SS-BS-BS-DC-DC
- RotaSingle2: PS-IT-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC
- RotaSingle3: PS-IT-SS-BS-BS-DC-DC-PS-IT-SS-IT-IT-DC-DC
- RotaAE1: PS-IT-Pest-D&D-DC-DC-PS-IT-Pest-SS-BS-DC-DC
- RotaAE2: PS-IT-Pest-D&D-DC-DC-PS-IT-Pest-SS-BB-DC-DC
- RotaAE3: PS-IT-Pest-D&D-DC-DC-SS-BS-SS-BB-DC-DC
- RotaAE4: PS-IT-Pest-D&D-DC-DC-SS-BB-SS-BB-DC-DC
- RotaAE5: PS-IT-Pest-D&D-DC-DC-SS-BS-DC
- RotaAE6: PS-IT-Pest-D&D-DC-DC-SS-BB-DC
- RotaAE7: PS-IT-Pest-D&D-DC-DC-PS-IT-Pest-DC
- RotaAE8: PS-IT-Pest-D&D-DC-DC-PS-IT-Pest-PS-IT-BS-DC-DC

Sidenote: This is a complete list of all possible Rotations. However RotaAE3 + RotaAE4 only apply to epidemic builds. I will not sim them again. Look at my 2H-Sims for them. RotaAE5, and RotaAE6 have been shown to be not competitive. RotaAE7 and RotaAE8 have been used to test the DC-Spam in an AoE-Environment. (BUT - I had to drop Reaping in the spec to make the Simulator actually work, the DeathRunes destroying the whole Rota. This does not influence the AoE DPS, as there is no difference. You would use the DeathRunes as BloodRunes anyway.)

Priorities:

- PrioSingle1: BP-FF-DCMaxRP-SS-BS-DC
- PrioSingle2: BP-FF-DCMaxRP-IT-BS-DC-GF-PS

Targets

1

1

1

1

3

3

3

3

5

5

5

5

RotaSingle1

RotaSingle2

RotaSingle3

PrioSingle2

RotaAE1

RotaAE2

RotaAE7

RotaAE8

RotaAE1

RotaAE2

RotaAE7

RotaAE8

2HSpec A

7834dps

7831dps

n/a

n/a

11807dps

11384dps

n/a

n/a

16317dps

15806dps

n/a

n/a

DWSpec A

7758dps

7851dps

n/a

n/a

12023dps

11629dps

n/a

n/a

16575dps

16088dps

n/a

n/a

DWSpec B

7759dps

7765dps

n/a

n/a

10985dps

10779dps

n/a

n/a

n/a

n/a

DWSpec C

7784dps

7892dps

n/a

n/a

12239dps

12038dps

n/a

n/a

17012dps

16862dps

DWSpec D

7769dps

7809dps

n/a

n/a

11592dps

11180dps

n/a

n/a

n/a

n/a

DWSpec E

n/a

n/a

7741dps

n/a

DWSpec F

n/a

n/a

n/a

7906dps

n/a

n/a

10528dps

10299dps

n/a

n/a

DWSpec G

n/a

n/a

n/a

7815dps

n/a

n/a

n/a

n/a

Conclusions:

- Doing AoE without the Buff from Desolation. (5% actually) is a dps loss. More Targets just increase the gap. We had actually thought, not to use BS in an AoE Situation. But you have to use BS when you don´t have the Buff from Desolation and only BB when you already have it. (RotaAE1 uses BS, RotaAE2 uses BB). Without epidemic you will NEVER BB again.

- Using D&D every 15 Seconds is not really a dps increase as before seen in the 2H-Simulations. Looking at the numbers of the DW-Spam-Spec doing AoE this is true for this spec too. RotaAE8 was made to do a 20 second Rotation with DC-Spam Spec taking the advantages of RotaAE1, but replacing SS with PS+IT. However the AE of the DC Spam Spec is not competitive.

- Playing DW with the normal RotaSimple1 as you play 2H yields in a dps loss of about 50-80 dps as mentioned before. However, I just altered the Rotation a bit for DW, as BS does less dmg than BB when using two Onehanders. Just do one BS for Desolation and BB after that. The new RotaSingle2 was born: PS-IT-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC. This new rotation has two advantages. 1. BB does more dmg than BS AND 2. when using BB instead of BS your GCD will be less than 1.5sec, due to haste. So we perhaps win just a little bit more time, resulting in a dps boost.

- I tested this new Rotation with 2HSpec A, too. Despite the loss of dmg going from the second BS to a BB you just lose 3 dps. I think GCD is in favour of BB here.

- DC Spam Spec (DWSpec F) is competitive regarding Single-Target-DPS. Actually being Number One here. BUT the rotation is much more complicated than the DWSpec C with RotaSingle2. Actually only 14 dps difference on paper. Anyone executing both of this specs will do more DPS with DW Spec C. I am sure.

- BUT there is 4PCT9

o Doing the sims with 5 Targets and 4PCT9 and RotaAE1:
 DWSpec A: 20288dps / DWSpec C: 20378dps

o Doing the sims with 1 Target and 4PCT9 and RotaSingle2:
 DWSpec A: 8460dps / DWSpec C: 8445dps / DWSpec F(With Prio2): 8299dps

- For me DWSpec C is the overall winner. It is 14 dps short of DC Spam on Single Target but is much much easier to play. In reality DWSpec C will give you more damage. AE just destroys the dps of the DC Spam, when compared to DWSpec C. Looking at the difference between DW Spec C and DW Spec A. DWSpec A yields only a very little amount of more dmg with 4PCT9 on SingleTarget, without it it looses to much in my opinion. In AoE DWSpec C beats everyone else.

Coming to my final conclusion – Believe it or not:

Best DW Spec: DWSpec C (3-13-55) – Best 2H Spec: 2H Spec A (16-0-55)

DW Spec C (3-13-55) with RotaSingle2 beats 2H Spec A (16-0-55) with RotaSingle1

DW Spec C (3-13-55) with RotaAE1 beats 2H Spec A (16-0-55) with RotaAE1

DW unholy beats 2H Unholy

BUT if you ever get your hands on a better Tier 2H Weapon, then switch to 2H again. That´s the reason for one Unholy Thread. With DW and 2H information in one thread.



------------------


The reason for SS first is pretty simple... when using AMS/ ERW or you have to move a lot, your strongest attacks should be used first. You will then be able to get rid of one BS or even two to get rid of your runic power shortly before your diseases fall off.

I had the same question myself; but the sigil argument seems very valid. On top of that, unless I'm wrong, if we are replacing one Bstr with BT/BSh, then we cannot do BStr before SS, because UH rune for SS would still be up and BSh would eat it.

*Consider beated me to it, and I appear to be wrong

24 dps difference (with 4p t9) between DWSpec C and 2H Spec A? Which is 0.3% of your overall dps. That's as close to personal choice between specs as you're going to get.

That said, I'll adjust the OP to reflect the different DW build and make note of the difference, slight as it may be.

Edit: So, I'm changing the OP, but there's one thing I noticed - you do BS then BB in the DW rotation. I take it that means BB outdamages BS by some minor amount, which is cool and all. But why wouldn't you do BS - BB, then on your next refresh simply BB - BB? Or BB - BS (then BB - BB, then BS - BB, BB - BS, etc, if that small delay would lose you some desolation uptime)?

@ Bensch78

I noticed that you do your sims based on 5 targes. Have you tried testing at what point (how many targets) would the AOE rotation win over the single target rotation with Pest instead of BS2 with the 16-0-55 2h build

basicaly
PS-IT-SS-BS-Pest-DC-DC (or move Pest before SS to spread initial diseases faster)

Consider makes a good point. I'm showing an ~25 DPS increase using:

PS-IT-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC
PS-IT-SS-BB-BB-DC-DC

That's most likely because BB has a shorter GCD than BS.

You will lose Desolation uptime. Not much, but you will lose it.

In the OP, Section VII - Generalized Rotations, you list all rotations to start with "IT - PS". Then in the text below you say the opposite to apply diseases (PS - IT). I'm fairly sure it's supposed to be the latter, but still a little confusing.

I specced into the top spec last night ("yay for SS coming back!...kinda...") and am enjoying it so far. (Edit: Found an answer to one of my questions. Question removed.)

Are the gear points between 2h and DW really close enough that it doesn't matter?

And, speaking of DKs in general, what specs tend to be better for lower-geared, mid-range (naxx, 10m Uld), and upper-tier gear levels? I know a lot will depend upon raid composition and whatnot, but I get asked this question by my DK players in guild quite a LOT. It seems many players forsake Unholy when they hit 80 because Blood puts out easier and more impressive single-target DPS, thus justifying their slot more easily in PuG groups.

~H

Bensch: I can't get my sims to match up with yours, using your numbers. Your Spec A, even using your exact stats, always comes up to 7817, not 7834, therefore i'm missing something. I have the rotation set the same, so I can only assume you are using different trinkets. If you could let me know which trinkets you are using in your sim, I'd appreciate it.

I have no idea wtf you're talking about. This is the easiest spec to switch target dps I've had on a DK so far.

He might be referring to the fact that you can place diseases on the Snobolds and use pestilence to Gormok, but you cannot put diseases on Gormok and use pestilence to spread them to the Snobolds. It's the same idea of hitting Gormok with Heart Strike cleave when you have a Snobold targetted but not the other way around.

Regarding use Blood Boil more often as DW Unholy or ever as 2H, it is a spell so has a slightly higher miss rate, and significantly higher missrate without a Moonkin/SPriest.

Regarding attacking the Snobolds, you have to manually target them, hit PS + IT, then use Pestilence to put the diseases back on the boss.

To Consider, I would add somewhere that DW:

-DW Unholy builds use a Slow MH/ Highest DPS Weapon OH setup. Offhand speed does not matter for Unholy.

I believe he's referring to heroic mode. GoD doesn't refresh your diseases on the snobolds, and pestilence doesn't spread diseases from the boss to the snobolds. But pestilence does in fact spread diseases from the snobolds to the boss so switching targets is still ideal.