Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 192

Okuno · 03/03/10, 4:28 PM

I apologize I had mis-read the latest patch notes and thought that disease rolling was once again possible.

Savetheday · 03/03/10, 4:32 PM

Originally Posted by Okuno

I apologize I had mis-read the latest patch notes and thought that disease rolling was once again possible.

Disease rolling is still possible but only with %dmg multipliers and crit increases.

svedka · 03/03/10, 4:43 PM

Originally Posted by nzo

Excuse the noob question, but is there any more info on whether or not Heroic [Bryntroll, the Bone Arbiter] will be BIS in 3.3.3? This would drastically affect how many guilds are dealing with their shards right now.

Or even for those of us who are dropping DKP on Heroic Cryptmakers, etc...

Anyway, any help on the value of Heroic Bryntroll in 3.3.3 will be super beneficial.

3.3.3 mentions no changes so the following should still apply.

Originally Posted by Consider

That's interesting as I just got a PM from a trust-worthy person arguing expertise was being shown too high at the moment. It's a difficult thing to sort out, but I'll look into it.

Anyways, two Bryntroll notes: On top of the application of debuffs no longer having a chance to proc, Blood-Caked Blade no longer appears to as well. I'm not exactly sure how recent this change is or isn't, but I'm fairly positive it didn't coincide with the SS change, so it's more likely from the same time as the debuff change. Disheartening regardless. Secondly, the heroic version appears to have the same proc rate (2PPM, or ~11.333%) as the normal version, as expected.

Testing:

(Still hitting away at the dummy, but I figure this is a large enough sample size)

77/666 = 11.561%

Suffice is to say that, of the 277 weapons, Bryntroll heroic is the worst and of the 264 weapons, Bryntroll normal is the worst.

nzo · 03/03/10, 5:16 PM

Originally Posted by svedka

3.3.3 mentions no changes so the following should still apply.

Sorry, I should have specified a bit more. To be more clear, I'm wondering if having a frost sub-spec will make H Bryntroll scale on par or higher than H Cryptmaker due to Blackice for increased proc damage and Icy Talons for more opportunities to proc. Does testing show that there is a proc cap, regardless of # hits per min?

All of this is in hopes to continue the discussion a few pages back from:

Originally Posted by Codface

Your total damage from Bry proc will be increased by around 25-28% when compairing Blood reaping to Frost non reaping. Thats 10% boost from talents, an additional proc chance from the extra Blood strike every 2nd rune cycle and 16% more normal white hits from 20% haste on top of current raid buffed haste.

Consider · 03/03/10, 6:43 PM

Originally Posted by svedka

3.3.3 mentions no changes so the following should still apply.

Not quite. The fact that it only procs off of Auto-attacks, SS physical, BS, and PS remains true, yes. The fact that the proc chance is 2 ppm (11.33%) remains true, yes. But the line at the end of that post - that heroic Bryntroll is inferior to heroic Cryptmaker and normal Bryntroll is inferior to normal Shadow's Edge and normal Cryptmaker may or may not still hold - and preliminary math is showing it doesn't.

Due to sub-speccing into Frost, Bryntroll gets a large boost. 20% more auto-attacks translates into about 5 more proc opportunities per minute. As well, since we (once again) won't be taking Reaping, that's an additional 3 proc opportunities per minute. Black Ice is pretty straight-forward in how it affects it: 10% more proc damage.

All in all, the weapon gets a modest boost, and at current gear levels, Bryntroll will pull ahead. In BiS, heroic Cryptmaker would win, but that's rather irrelevant due to the fact that for BiS heroic Glorenzelg (and, obviously, Shadowmourne) is going to beat both handily (due to raw ilvl and weapon dps, everything else aside).

When I have the time, I'll throw up the 3.3.3 BiS lists/stat weights/etc, but it's not a huge priority as little enough changes.

Codface · 03/03/10, 6:56 PM

In a fight where you have only hit the boss with 104 hits that can proc the ability rng is going to come into the equation. 104 hits should average 11.7ish Drain life procs. Which if you add 2.7x3564 hits to your drain life damage would come out at around 2.8-2.9% of total damage which is what you'd expect.

♦ arison · 03/03/10, 8:21 PM

I've found around a 75-100 dps increase by using blood tap to get an extra scourge strike in once a minute. Now that simcraft knows this trick, I end up seeing 0/17/54 being a dps loss of around 20 or so compared to the traditional 14/0/57 since, without Reaping, you can't pull the tap trick. Perhaps Kahorie's doesn't use this yet but it definitely calls into question if 0/17/54 truly is an increase. Combine with even fewer free GCDs (thanks to losing Reaping) and I think you ultimately end up with 0/17/54 not really being an improvement, perhaps short of Bryntroll or maybe Shadowmourne.

Xzanecho · 03/03/10, 8:36 PM

Since pets don't get the 5% buff in ICC, isn't blood going to pull ahead of unholy as the buff increases eventually, if it hasn't already?

Larisroth · 03/04/10, 12:39 AM

The blood tap trick is a good trick, but isn't really as effective as you seem to suggest.
Taking out all the other strikes etc, assuming you go BS BT (small pause for the UI) SS (with 2xD) and then want to do it again when the next blood tap is up, you'll find that you have 2 death runes when you want to use the trick again. So you have to wait for an additional 10 seconds. So you gain half a SS every 70ish seconds. Using the Blood Tap for a straight BS you gain one BS every 60 ish seconds. Once you factor in the time difference it really is only a small buff to reaping.

That said depending on your gear and latency etc sub frost reaping is a possible build.

On another note people should really stop obsessing over small dps boosts. None of the simulators we run are that accurate.

rh8452 · 03/04/10, 9:42 AM

Originally Posted by Xzanecho

Since pets don't get the 5% buff in ICC, isn't blood going to pull ahead of unholy as the buff increases eventually, if it hasn't already?

For the time being I will assume that pets not getting the buff is an oversight on blizz's part that they will fix in a subsequent patch or hotfix.

Even if it doesn't get fixed, it would mean blood would have a very slight advantage over unholy towards the end of the content cycle, maybe a couple hundred DPS difference - by the time the amount of DPS matters, it is unlikely we will still be considering icecrown to be progression.

Lindwurm · 03/04/10, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Xzanecho

Since pets don't get the 5% buff in ICC, isn't blood going to pull ahead of unholy as the buff increases eventually, if it hasn't already?

Edit: Plugged too much STR into the sim, calculation completely redone:

1.) Simulating Blood with ArP-Gems and Unholy with STR-Gems for my current gear:

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	%
HeartStrike	1141878659	30,8	112744	10128,1	59765	52,6	5887,6	52979	46,6	14911,6	910	,8
MainHand	948501032	25,6	127331	7449,1	78751	61,4	4694,9	48580	37,9	11913,8	969	,8
DeathCoil	356957718	9,6	63923	5584,2	38801	60,7	3942,9	25122	39,3	8119,1
DeathStrike	335973034	9,1	29914	11231,3	17045	56,5	6765,5	12869	42,7	17146,2	248	,8
Necrosis	147435782	4	127331	1157,9	127331	100
FrostFever	145258327	3,9	110690	1312,3	110690	100							92,7	92,7
BloodPlague	143626727	3,9	107026	1342	107026	100							89,8	89,8
DRW	135379219	3,7	51931	2606,9	37041	71,3		14890	28,7
BloodCakedBlade	104715507	2,8	37898	2763,1	37898	99,1	2763,1				337	,9
Ghoul	94734765	2,6	132046	717,4	114669	86,8	640,1	17377	13,2	1227,7
PlagueStrike	73714189	2	15720	4689,2	8826	55,7	2925,9	6894	43,5	6946,7	117	,7
IcyTouch	43885052	1,2	16454	2667,1	9937	60,4	1881,5	6517	39,6	3865
BloodWorms	35873597	1	322270	111,3	322270	100
Horn			1592		1592	100
AshenBand			6632		6632	100							18,3
DeathChoice			8229		8229	100							34,1
DeathbringersWill			4114		4114	100							33,6
Virulence			25337		25337	100							92,6
MHFallenCrusader			35267		35267	100							87,3
OrcRacial			3086		3086	100							12,9
BElfRacial			3086		3086	100
DPS	10300(+/- 858)
Total Damage	3707,93m	in 100h
Threat Per Second	5843
Generated in	16s
Template:	Blood 51-00-20
Priority:	Blood
Presence:	Blood
Sigil:	Virulence
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation:	True

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	%
ScourgeStrike	1008768928	26,7	76750	13143,6	36116	46,8	7600,7	40634	52,7	18070,1	410	,5
MainHand	724482780	19,1	126987	5705,2	78450	61,2	3592,2	48537	37,8	9120,4	1276	1
Ghoul	411388132	10,9	364203	1129,6	316540	86,9	1008,4	47663	13,1	1934,3
DeathCoil	368773184	9,7	59983	6148	36406	60,7	4341,4	23577	39,3	8937,6
Gargoyle	214750786	5,7	39053	5499	33926	86,9	4860,6	5127	13,1	9722,8
BloodPlague	198005439	5,2	113511	1744,4	113511	100							72	72
FrostFever	195904749	5,2	112486	1741,6	112486	100							72,5	72,5
BloodStrike	155131154	4,1	35091	4420,8	18639	52,6	2955,7	16452	46,4	6080,7	368	1
Necrosis	140737628	3,7	126987	1108,3	126987	100
BloodCakedBlade	114071927	3	37619	3032,3	37619	98,9	3032,3				428	1,1
WanderingPlague	108942345	2,9	62569	1741,2	62569	100
PlagueStrike	62846127	1,7	12362	5083,8	6942	55,6	3175,2	5420	43,4	7528,4	126	1
IcyTouch	43479498	1,1	12686	3427,4	7652	60,3	2416,5	5034	39,7	4963,9
UnholyBlight	36880200	1	59983	614,8	59983	100
Horn			16119		16119	100
BoneShield			1028		1028	100
BloodTap			754		754	100
AshenBand			6434		6434	100							17,8
DeathChoice			8221		8221	100							34
DeathbringersWill			4114		4114	100							33,4
Virulence			65173		65173	100							99,9
MHFallenCrusader			30953		30953	100							83,8
OrcRacial			3086		3086	100							12,9
BElfRacial			3086		3086	100
DPS	10512(+/- 742)
Total Damage	3784,16m	in 100h
Threat Per Second	5320
Generated in	20s
Template:	Unholy 14-0-57
Priority:	Unholy
Presence:	Blood
Sigil:	Virulence
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation:	True

2.)I took the resulting DPS Values, subtracted Pet-DPS and applied Hellscream's Warsong before adding the original Pet-DPS again:

	blood	unholy
Baseline DPS	10300	10512
Pet %	0.036	0.166
1.05	10796.46	10950.35
1.10	11292.92	11388.70
1.15	11789.38	11827.05
1.20	12285.84	12265.40
1.25	12782.30	12703.75
1.30	13278.76	13142.10

Same Result as I stated before: Blood pulls ahead at +20% Damage

Kaejin · 03/04/10, 10:41 AM

DRW benefits from +damage % buffs from the user last I knew. That's why you always pop Hysteria before you pop DRW.

http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t61176-b...ng_Rune_Weapon

Saetan85 · 03/04/10, 5:36 PM

Been skimming over the most recent posts, and I am sure someone said it and got shot down by now. I am just curious how viable a DW unholy spec will be with the changes to Icy Talons in 3.3.3.

nerdfuel · 03/04/10, 5:57 PM

Originally Posted by Lindwurm

Same Result as I stated before: Blood pulls ahead at +20% Damage

Unholy in my gear using the current 5% damage buff.

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances		Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
ScourgeStrike	891963374	23.3	71869	12411	31871	43.9	7028.6	39998	55.1	16699.7	700	1
MainHand	732821018	19.1	136600	7208.6	45425	32.6	3946.4	56234	40.4	8128.1	2698	1.9	34941	25.1	2761.2
Ghoul	424438948	11.1	362643	1170.4	315215	86.9	1045.1	47428	13.1	2003.3
DeathCoil	372745700	9.7	58561	6365.1	34375	58.7	4430.5	24186	41.3	9114.7
FrostFever	234126928	6.1	108730	2153.3	108730	100										99.9
BloodPlague	196053144	5.1	108711	1803.4	108711	100										99.9
BloodStrike	148353804	3.9	34659	4280.4	17515	49.5	2809.6	17144	48.5	5783	700	2
Necrosis	142356439	3.7	136600	1042.1	136600	100
WanderingPlague	126303356	3.3	64069	1971.4	64069	100
BryntrollHeroic	118830195	3.1	29686	4002.9	29686	100	4002.9
Gargoyle	114302537	3	20588	5551.9	17967	87.3	4924	2621	12.7	9856.2
BloodCakedBlade	109142141	2.8	40260	2710.9	40260	98	2710.9				823	2
PlagueStrike	89343743	2.3	17958	4975.1	9653	52.7	3037.6	8305	45.4	7227.2	346	1.9
IcyTouch	64157125	1.7	17960	3572.2	10502	58.5	2479.9	7458	41.5	5110.4
UnholyBlight	37279889	1	58561	636.6	58561	100
Hand Mounted Pyro Rocket	27431612	.7	7881	3480.7	4709	59.8	2897.4	3172	40.2	4346.7
DPS	10638
Total Damage	3829.65m	in 100h

Blood in my gear using the current 5% damage buff and Str gems.

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances		Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
HeartStrike	1204644832	30.2	123787	9731.6	62793	49.9	5537.3	60994	48.5	14049.6	2033	1.6
MainHand	956304533	24	136974	9379.9	45815	32.9	5143.2	56138	40.3	10591.9	2328	1.7	35021	25.1	3599.6
DeathStrike	380095438	9.5	34909	10888.2	18891	53.2	6385.4	16018	45.1	16198.5	630	1.8
DeathCoil	353580074	8.9	65807	5373	38614	58.7	3737.2	27193	41.3	7695.7
FrostFever	188109465	4.7	119997	1567.6	119997	100										100
BloodPlague	188103290	4.7	119996	1567.6	119996	100										100
Necrosis	185795058	4.7	136974	1356.4	136974	100
DRW	159137144	4	52764	3016	37574	71.2		15190	28.8
BryntrollHeroic	125621277	3.2	33601	3738.6	33601	100	3738.6
BloodCakedBlade	103803573	2.6	40395	2569.7	40395	98.2	2569.7				722	1.8
Ghoul	75126454	1.9	86945	864.1	75582	86.9	772.2	11363	13.1	1475.1
BloodWorms	39152417	1	320210	122.3	320210	100
Hand Mounted Pyro Rocket	25644105	.6	7886	3251.9	4703	59.6	2705.8	3183	40.4	4058.7
PlagueStrike	11743		3	3914.3	2	66.7	2712	1	33.3	6319
IcyTouch	10304		3	3434.7	1	33.3	2170	2	66.7	4067
DPS	11070
Total Damage	3985.14m	in 100h

Blood in my gear using the current 5% damage buff and ArP gems.

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances		Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
HeartStrike	1263778392	31.4	123886	10201.1	64944	51.6	5894.5	58942	46.8	14946.3	2033	1.6
MainHand	992662805	24.7	136966	9737.1	48106	34.5	5415.1	53840	38.7	11134.3	2328	1.7	35020	25.1	3789.1
DeathStrike	396692949	9.9	34963	11346.1	19505	54.8	6762.8	15458	43.4	17129.2	631	1.8
DeathCoil	323202651	8	65866	4907	39937	60.6	3462.8	25929	39.4	7131.4
Necrosis	192867622	4.8	136966	1408.1	136966	100
BloodPlague	171759787	4.3	119995	1431.4	119995	100										100
FrostFever	171752555	4.3	119997	1431.3	119997	100										100
DRW	148211696	3.7	52465	2825	37239	71		15226	29
BryntrollHeroic	125678234	3.1	33616	3738.6	33616	100	3738.6
BloodCakedBlade	109268148	2.7	40394	2705.1	40394	98.2	2705.1				722	1.8
Ghoul	68064998	1.7	86751	784.6	75385	86.9	700.8	11366	13.1	1340.2
BloodWorms	36980858	.9	320300	115.5	320300	100
Hand Mounted Pyro Rocket	25454292	.6	7884	3228.6	4837	61.4	2705.8	3047	38.6	4058.5
PlagueStrike	15856		4	3964	3	75	2919.7	1	25	7097
IcyTouch	11878		4	2969.5	2	50	2194.5	2	50	3744.5
DPS	11184
Total Damage	4026.4m	in 100h

I don't think I did anything wrong and I've had Blood ahead of Unholy in the sim before the 5% damage buff was added.

Larisroth · 03/04/10, 6:14 PM

Originally Posted by Saetan85

Been skimming over the most recent posts, and I am sure someone said it and got shot down by now. I am just curious how viable a DW unholy spec will be with the changes to Icy Talons in 3.3.3.

Rather viable. Some sort of 2H build is of course best in the BiS gear purely because Shadowmourne is by far the best weapon you can get. However, if you don't / won't get Shadowmourne then the 3 main 2H and DW builds all sim around each other depending on what other conditions you have in your sim.

The best single target DW build is basically the no-reaping build. However (for single target at least) you move 3 points from Black Ice to Nerves of Cold Steel (which is almost twice as valuable). If you need to get morbidity for better AE damage you can take them outbreak, rather than necrosis.

As you can use Blood Boil rather than most Blood Strikes, the build has more GCDs and is less dependent on expertise. It's probably the build with the best haste scaling and has slightly better strength scaling than other builds.

The build is less weapon dependent than others. You'll want a good slow MH but OH weapon speed doesn't really matter, and it is only used for autoattack related damage. Using a fast mainhand isn't recommended, as it's equivalent to a tier and half lower main hand.