Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 193

Saetan85 · 03/04/10, 6:34 PM

Originally Posted by Larisroth

Rather viable. Some sort of 2H build is of course best in the BiS gear purely because Shadowmourne is by far the best weapon you can get. However, if you don't / won't get Shadowmourne then the 3 main 2H and DW builds all sim around each other depending on what other conditions you have in your sim.

The best single target DW build is basically the no-reaping build. However (for single target at least) you move 3 points from Black Ice to Nerves of Cold Steel (which is almost twice as valuable). If you need to get morbidity for better AE damage you can take them outbreak, rather than necrosis.

As you can use Blood Boil rather than most Blood Strikes, the build has more GCDs and is less dependent on expertise. It's probably the build with the best haste scaling and has slightly better strength scaling than other builds.

I just started playing with the sim for the first time today and really have zero clue as to what to do really with it at times, but I am trying to figure it out now. I understand what ya mean by moving talents from and to where, but what about a 0/18/53 spec?

Edit: Pretty much the Reapingless spec but with 3/5 Black Ice and 4/5 Necrosis.

Larisroth · 03/04/10, 7:28 PM

If you have an idea of a spec you want to sim with, but are considering moving around a couple of points, the StatTalentDPSValue button is useful as it'll tell you how much that final point of each talent is worth. Of course the value will depend on what rotation/priority you use and what gear etc. Trying to find the optimal DPS strategy for a DK is a little bit of an art.

Anyhow the last time I ran it for the DW build I got a display that came out like this. (I was running 2 BI, 5 Necrosis 0 Morbidity and 3 Outbreak)

Average for OriginalSpec | 11680
Value for ImprovedIcyTouch | 9
Value for RPM | 5.5
Value for BlackIce | 77
Value for NervesofColdSteel | 150.67
Value for IcyTalons | 158
Value for EndlessWinter | 145.5
Value for ViciousStrikes | 99.5
Value for Virulence | 26
Value for Epidemic | 47
Value for RavenousDead | 209.67
Value for Outbreak | 90.67
Value for Necrosis | 129.6
Value for BloodCakedBlade | 161
Value for NightoftheDead | 0
Value for UnholyBlight | 118
Value for Impurity | 105.2
Value for Dirge | 108
Value for MasterOfGhouls | 880
Value for Desolation | 86.6
Value for CryptFever | 0
Value for BoneShield | 172
Value for WanderingPlague | 116
Value for EbonPlaguebringer | 72.67
Value for ScourgeStrike | 0
Value for RageofRivendare | 141.2
Value for SummonGargoyle | 453

Morbidity doesn't appear in the list because it wasn't in the build. Sometimes you have to put in speculative talents (for instance if you were thinking about dipping into subversion (not usually worth it for a sub frost build)). However morbidity is a special case as it's pretty much equivalent to 1/2 the unholy blight value for single target, so I don't usually put it in. (In this case morbidity is worth around 60 DPS, so not worth it for a straight single-target build)

Now obviously you can't necessarily remove all the weak talents.

I originally did have 3 points in Black Ice, but as you can see it's value is less than that of Necrosis (or of Outbreak which is where I moved it to as I already had full Necrosis), (Necrosis is quite a bit stronger for DW than 2H).

If we want Morbidity we have a few options. Taking points from Epidemic conceivably makes sense in a single target environment however we usually want Morbidity for better AE in which case we want longer diseases, so we'll skip that.
We can't take anymore points from the frost tree (all the talents are either valuable deep talents or required in order to get said deep talents). So it has to come from the Unholy tree. The only real options are desolation (which is useful for AE) and Outbreak (which would get weaker with AE).

Some talents are pretty sensitive to the conditions of your simulation because they'll chance the sequence of actions. Dirge is one example as it provides extra RP and the amount of RP you can use depends on how many free GCDs and may affect the sequence of events. Reaping is a more severe case. So you have to be a bit careful evaluating them.

Larisroth · 03/05/10, 10:14 AM

For an indication of how close DW and 2H builds are in the simulator here's the breakdowns comparing the two builds with modified ilvl 284 weapons. (I turned both Glorenzelg and Havoc's Call into Axes with crit / ArPen but otherwise left them the same) (The 2H build has over 200 more strength as a result)

Firstly 2H

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances		Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
MainHand	270509951	22.3	42917	8463.8	14316	32.7	4637.6	17645	40.3	9550.5	872	2	10956	25	3249.3
Ghoul	142125768	11.7	114583	1240.4	99456	86.8	1102.5	15127	13.2	2146.8
ScourgeStrike	133060803	10.9	15081	8823.1	7974	51.8	5349.4	7107	46.2	12720.6	313	2
DeathCoil	116226877	9.6	16188	7179.8	9328	57.1	4951.1	6860	42	10210.3	139	.9
BloodStrike	88536216	7.3	19655	4504.5	11720	58.4	3154.3	7935	39.5	6498.8	410	2
ScourgeStrikeMagical	73538018	6.1	15081	4876.2	7974	52.9	2957.1	7107	47.1	7029.4
FrostFever	71273278	5.9	29700	2399.8	29700	100										99.9
Gargoyle	66039144	5.4	11966	5518.9	10377	85.8	4873.2	1589	13.1	9735.4	131	1.1
BloodPlague	60064533	4.9	29924	2007.2	29924	100										99.9
Necrosis	52557441	4.3	42917	1224.6	42917	100
BloodCakedBlade	39540535	3.3	12426	3182.1	12426	97.9	3182.1				269	2.1
WanderingPlague	38538035	3.2	17573	2193	17573	99					180	1
PlagueStrike	28237610	2.3	5089	5548.8	2751	53.1	3394.9	2338	45.2	8083	88	1.7
IcyTouch	23310296	1.9	5103	4568	2988	58	3172	2115	41.1	6540.1	47	.9
UnholyBlight	11622628	1	16188	718	16188	100
Horn			1		1	100
DeathChoiceHeroic			2360		2360	100										34.4
DeathbringersWillHeroic			1017		1017	100										30.5
MHFallenCrusader			9954		9954	100										87.8
OrcRacial			1017		1017	100										15.3
DPS	12152(+/- 635)

Then DW

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances		Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
MainHand	220807040	18.2	50087	6319.1	8711	14.4	3013.1	26232	43.2	6200.3	10596	17.5	15144	25	2107.4
OffHand	137262237	11.3	49960	3961.5	8712	14.4	1885.7	25937	42.7	3879.3	10736	17.7	15311	25.2	1320.4
Ghoul	134390886	11.1	114580	1172.9	99724	87	1044.8	14856	13	2032.7
DeathCoil	117585637	9.7	17998	6533.3	10575	58.4	4550.4	7423	41	9358.1	110	.6
ScourgeStrike	95260459	7.8	14974	6361.7	7613	49.9	3791.2	7361	48.2	9020.3	290	1.9
Necrosis	69566765	5.7	100047	695.3	100047	100
FrostFever	65316560	5.4	29890	2185.2	29890	100										99.9
Gargoyle	64698156	5.3	12048	5370	10524	86.9	4766.9	1524	12.6	9535.2	59	.5
BloodPlague	54816184	4.5	29998	1827.3	29998	100										99.9
BloodBoil	51013750	4.2	14929	3417.1	8798	58.6	2386	6131	40.8	4896.7	84	.6
ScourgeStrikeMagical	50224367	4.1	14974	3354.1	7613	50.8	1998.6	7361	49.2	4756
WanderingPlague	36851275	3	18499	1992.1	18499	99.5					88	.5
BloodCakedBlade	30380502	2.5	14724	2063.3	14724	98.2	2063.3				263	1.8
IcyTouch	21380639	1.8	5087	4203	2927	57.3	2915.1	2160	42.3	5948.2	25	.5
PlagueStrike	19688468	1.6	5117	3847.7	2646	50.9	2311.9	2471	47.5	5492.2	81	1.6
BloodCakedBlade(OH)	19103512	1.6	14787	1291.9	14787	98	1291.9				309	2
BloodStrike	14850777	1.2	4844	3065.8	2814	57.1	2126.5	2030	41.2	4367.9	82	1.7
UnholyBlight	11760584	1	17998	653.4	17998	100
Horn			4388		4388	100
DeathChoiceHeroic			2373		2373	100										35.3
DeathbringersWillHeroic			1017		1017	100										30.5
MHFallenCrusader			6508		6508	100										74.2
OHFallenCrusader			4351		4351	100										58.8
OrcRacial			1017		1017	100										15.3
DPS	12150(+/- 641)

For those that are curious the DPS values of the various main stats come out to be:

Stat	2H	DW
Str	2.38	2.58
ArPen	2.08	1.98
Crit	1.48	1.46
Haste	1.34	1.62
Agi	0.96	0.94
AP	0.76	0.83

FeawenShadows · 03/05/10, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by pheonix1358

Reaping versus Reapingless,

Dirge, is it worth it?

Basically I am a long time DK player and have done enough ICC encounters enough to start questioning the need for Dirge in our spec.

With Frost now being a viable subspec, and everyone talking about going UH-Sub Frost in a Reapingless build, wouldn't it also be possible to go UH-Sub Frost in a Reaping build if we drop Dirge and 1 point in Dark Conviction?

I do not expect simulators to show this being the case simply b/c sims don't use AMS to soak RP like all any good DKs does. If anything this idea would have to be tested out in raid situations. There simply are so many ICC encounters you can use AMS on CD, Sindragosa's constant AoE and Unchained Magic, LDW's constant AOE and her Blood Whirl, Putricide's Volatile Ozzes or running through green slime etc.

The reasons for doing it:

I've noticed that more often than not I simply have too much RP. And 2 BS do not do as much damage as 1 SS, in current ICC gear. Also with SS benefiting from Black Ice and going into Runic Power Mastery will allow you to soak even more RP, it would be hard to imagine Dirge being necessary for many of our builds. It only adds 20RP after our first rotation in reapingless builds. Then again not having Butcery might also kill our rp generation.

The main reason for this in my opinion would be simply b/c I never feel RP starved and quite the opposite, I feel I have too much during many encounters.

Ideas, thoughts, suggestions, go.

I feel the same, I don't plan on running dirge post 3.3.3. I currently run 12/0/59 with only 1 point in dirge and may move it out; 3/3 Morbidity. I always feel I have to much RP. but yes, I have a tree, fully utilize AMS/Blood Tap/and I'm a BE(Torrent). Especially when I get a 10-12k Deathcoil and don't feel like overwriting the UHB Dot. I may run Frost Sub/Reaping with 4/5 Necrosis. If anyone wants WoL data on my build from ICC25 let me know. I'll at least test this out live to see how the loss of butchery/dirge affect me. I just don't feel comfortable simming RP talents and prefer to test them live. 0/14/54 Frost/Reaping

gia · 03/05/10, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by FeawenShadows

I always feel I have to much RP, especially when I get a 10-12k Deathcoil and don't feel like overwriting the UHB Dot.

Unholy Blight doesn't work that way. It works like Ignite/Deep Wounds, when refreshing the effect the remaining damage from the previous dot gets added to the new one. No damage is lost or gained, unless the target dies before it runs its full duration.

Afabar · 03/05/10, 1:00 PM

Originally Posted by Larisroth

For an indication of how close DW and 2H builds are in the simulator here's the breakdowns comparing the two builds with modified ilvl 284 weapons.

What did you change to have a lot more Horn casted on the DW setup?

Annholy · 03/05/10, 1:10 PM

Originally Posted by FeawenShadows

I feel the same, I don't plan on running dirge post 3.3.3. I currently run 12/0/59 with only 1 point in dirge and may move it out; 3/3 Morbidity. I always feel I have to much RP. but yes, I have a tree, fully utilize AMS/Blood Tap/and I'm a BE(Torrent). Especially when I get a 10-12k Deathcoil and don't feel like overwriting the UHB Dot. I may run Frost Sub/Reaping with 4/5 Necrosis. If anyone wants WoL data on my build from ICC25 let me know. I'll at least test this out live to see how the loss of butchery/dirge affect me. I just don't feel comfortable simming RP talents and prefer to test them live. 0/14/54 Frost/Reaping

Sounds interesting, but I think it wont work (Reaping build without Butchery or Dirge). Right now on my dk I got Reaping, Dirgeless subblood uh build (2 more points from Dirge went to Dark Conviction). Still got enough RP for DC and 37% crit chance :P So imo Dirge is a nice talent but I can play without it.

FeawenShadows · 03/05/10, 1:34 PM

Originally Posted by Annholy

Sounds interesting, but I think it wont work (Reaping build without Butchery or Dirge). Right now on my dk I got Reaping, Dirgeless subblood uh build (2 more points from Dirge went to Dark Conviction). Still got enough RP for DC and 37% crit chance :P So imo Dirge is a nice talent but I can play without it.

Yes it does sound interesting but will imo need a live testing and work/raid schedule/RL preclude a PTR ICC10 or 25 test. But thanks for the info on your dirgeless build, I'll try it out next reset and drop Morbidity.

Griefpb · 03/05/10, 2:53 PM

Dirge has always been a worthwhile talent to pick up that's fairly easy to quantify as well.I know dirge is generally weighted greater than necrosis per point, I also think it is greater than dark conviction as well.
But especially in the next patch when sub frost will be the best spec, black ice will increase the power of death coil and ub. It will also increase the power of necrosis as well though with black ice and icy talons.

Larisroth · 03/05/10, 7:04 PM

Originally Posted by Afabar

What did you change to have a lot more Horn casted on the DW setup?

The main reason for the increased Horn usage is because the build uses Blood Boil rather than Blood Strike when it can, and so has more spell GCDs. (Although at about 1200 ArPen BS hits harder). I just used the standard 150 latency, but the effect is more noticeable if you increase it. (I play with 250-350 latency). I didn't have horn in my priority and the auto horn is a little bit conservative. I also had some extra RP and wasn't expertised capped, but that all doesn't really change things much.

The gear was based around the profile at Profiler - Wowhead, although I swapped a few more gems for a bit more hit in the DW one.

It was a pretty simple setup, the default Unholy priority for the 2H build and a BP > FF > Desolation (BS) > SS > BB > DC for the DW one.

I could've gone for a more complex priority or rotation (I've been trying and struggling to implement a disease twisting priority) but I figured that was good enough for a rough test showing how close things actually are.

Feanorr · 03/06/10, 9:00 PM

Originally Posted by Xzanecho

Since pets don't get the 5% buff in ICC, isn't blood going to pull ahead of unholy as the buff increases eventually, if it hasn't already?

Blood also get a "pet", the DRW; so unless DRW is buffed by the 5% and ghoul and gargoyle arent, it should be in favor of frost, no?

nhlkdog411 · 03/06/10, 9:16 PM

Originally Posted by Feanorr

Blood also get a "pet", the DRW; so unless DRW is buffed by the 5% and ghoul and gargoyle arent, it should be in favor of frost, no?

AFAIK DRW benefits from +damage% buffs such as hysteria etc. ghouls do not.

unablelol · 03/06/10, 11:12 PM

I have a quick question:

So I was reading the Paragon forums, and they all seem to be talking about getting two weapons and start the fight with Cinderglacier weapon 'til it procs and then switch to Fallen Crusader for buffed disease damage. I was wondering if anyone has tried this before? And since I did not see much discussion about Rune forges in Consider's initial post of the thread, so I think this might be something to add into that small and pitiful section?

amalgam · 03/06/10, 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by Griefpb

It will also increase the power of necrosis as well though with black ice and icy talons.

Way back in 3.1 days, they changed Necrosis so that it was no longer affected by Black Ice. I believe it occurred in the same patch that UB was changed to its current iteration.

RoflCat · 03/07/10, 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by unablelol

I have a quick question:

So I was reading the Paragon forums, and they all seem to be talking about getting two weapons and start the fight with Cinderglacier weapon 'til it procs and then switch to Fallen Crusader for buffed disease damage. I was wondering if anyone has tried this before? And since I did not see much discussion about Rune forges in Consider's initial post of the thread, so I think this might be something to add into that small and pitiful section?

It's been mentioned before, I believe the final verdict is that the low PPM of Cinderglacier make it that too often you LOSE overall damage by waiting for that proc.