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Old 03/14/10, 8:06 PM   #2941
Medestruit
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Death Knight
 
Aerie Peak
Originally Posted by Frostx View Post
Best time to use it is on the pull, as that is the best chance for all your trinkets and fallen crusader will align.

~4-5 Seconds before pull pre-pot Indestructible Potion for ~97ap/2mins, then cast Army of the Dead. Follow up with:

Sigil of Virulence:
IT - PS - BS - BS - SS - <Gargoyle now if all procs are up, if not then Deathcoil x 1>
ERW
SS - SS - <Garg now at the latest. This is probably your last chance to garg before Paragon runs out> - SS - DC - HoW

If you are using Sigil of the Hanged Man then you can only garg at the second time i listed it, after your 3rd SS.
Also, doing this opening you can start your second rotation with PS - IT for disease twisting.
This is fairly untrue about the Hanged Man portion. It's true that you want to wait for 3 SS's to get summon, but your initial rotation should always utilize a Blood Tap.

IT - PS - BS - (blood tap)SS - SS <Gargoyle now>
ERW
DC - SS <or Gargoyle now> - SS - DC - BS - BS

Now for the sake of smoothness, always using the first gargoyle slot isn't a huge loss even if using Hanged Man, though clearly the 2nd would be most optimal due to the fact that you will have all 3 stacks up. And clearly this is specific to using a reaping build.

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Old 03/14/10, 9:51 PM   #2942
Bandee
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
<SA>
Black Dragonflight
It's better to pre-pot Potion of Speed rather than Indestructible Potion. 5 Seconds before the pull you channel AoTD and then use Potion of Speed. You lose a bit of time on your army, but gain a lot more dps on your gargoyle.

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Old 03/15/10, 3:48 PM   #2943
Neddie
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Smolderthorn
Originally Posted by Bandee View Post
It's better to pre-pot Potion of Speed rather than Indestructible Potion. 5 Seconds before the pull you channel AoTD and then use Potion of Speed. You lose a bit of time on your army, but gain a lot more dps on your gargoyle.
I think it depends on whether the fight is long enough for 2 gargoyles.

You want one of the gargoyles to have a speed pot. If there's only time for 1 gargoyle, speed pot for that gargoyle. If the fight's long enough to have 2 gargoyles, use the indestructible pot pre-pull, and do a non-speed-pot gargoyle for the first one (since the pot will be on CD). When it's time for the 2nd one, wait for as many AP/haste procs to align as possible, then speed pot + gargoyle, without waiting so long that your gargoyle is still alive at the end of the fight.

It also seems a bit of a waste to me to speed-pot before the pull. The only fight I can think of off the top of my head where you don't have to run in pretty far to start DPS is saurfang. Let's say you have to stand 21+ yards out to avoid aggroing the boss. At a standard 7 yard/sec run speed, you'd spend 3s running in before you can start DPS. Since the haste pot only has a 15s duration, that seems to be a big chunk of wasted pot time.

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Old 03/15/10, 4:42 PM   #2944
Wowzers
Von Kaiser
 
Wowzers's Avatar
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Ner'zhul
Good news regarding pet scaling with the ICC buff:

Icecrown Raid Buff: Hellscream's Warsong and Strength of Wrynn now provide their bonuses to player pet health and damage, as well as the absorption amounts of Power Word: Shield and Sacred Shield.
Source: http://worldofraids.com/

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Old 03/15/10, 8:53 PM   #2945
Bandee
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
<SA>
Black Dragonflight
Even with the loss of 3 seconds, Potion of Speed comes out ahead, just do the math. Also, the number of gargoyles you summon is irrelevant. Potion of Speed before summoning gargoyle is higher dps than Indestructible Potion before summoning gargoyle. If there is time to summon two gargoyles in the fight, then use two Potions of Speed. One more thing, with the new proposed 0/17/54 spec, Indestructible Potion will be useless for DPS anyways. Right now it's just suboptimal, not totally useless.

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Old 03/16/10, 9:30 AM   #2946
Slagg
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Death Knight
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
I just ran Kahories simulator a few times with and got these results:

Current - 14/0/57 - Reaping - Ghoul, IT & DD

DPS - 9954

3.3.3 - 1/17/53 - Reapingless - Ghoul, IT & DD - with Shadows Edge

DPS - 10072

3.3.3 - 1/17/53 - Reapingless - Ghoul, IT & DD - with Bryntroll

DPS - 10104

Lets say I go with the last option as it seems rather good, wouldnt Tiny Abomination in a Jar be quite a good option with all the haste and procs from Bryntroll etc?

I have tested it out before and it has done like 3% of my damage with current gear & spec. In 3.3.3 I assume it would be even better.

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Old 03/16/10, 10:56 AM   #2947
Fyrestryke
Von Kaiser
 
Fyrestryke's Avatar
 
Orc Death Knight
 
<SG>
Bleeding Hollow
Originally Posted by Bandee View Post
Even with the loss of 3 seconds, Potion of Speed comes out ahead, just do the math. Also, the number of gargoyles you summon is irrelevant. Potion of Speed before summoning gargoyle is higher dps than Indestructible Potion before summoning gargoyle. If there is time to summon two gargoyles in the fight, then use two Potions of Speed. One more thing, with the new proposed 0/17/54 spec, Indestructible Potion will be useless for DPS anyways. Right now it's just suboptimal, not totally useless.
Indestructible is a pretty accepted method of pre-pull potting. If you have math that shows it's wrong, then by all means prove it. Until such time as you do then your argument has no validity. I have a feeling you've missed something in this magical math you've done to figure out that speed pot is better.
1) You lose at least 4 seconds of DPS time with speed pot while poping Army pre pull.
2) You lose at least 3 additional seconds of DPS time running to the boss.
3) You now have AT BEST 8 seconds to pop gargoyle or lose the speed pot boost on your cast. Your raid isn't always going to be ready for Blood Lust inside that 8 seconds, so now you are faced with the choice of wasting your speed pot or not waiting for BL to pop your first gargoyle.

Seems to me to be a pretty clear cut victory for Indestructible Potion pre-pull. For about 1m53s all your attacks and your Army and your Gargoyle benefit from using an Indestructible pot, the same can't be said of a speed pot.
Of course 0/17/54 changes everything. You will be using Speed Pot x2 once you're spec'd that way, but until then I see no logical way around using Indestructible.

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Old 03/16/10, 3:06 PM   #2948
Neddie
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Smolderthorn
Originally Posted by Fyrestryke View Post
1) You lose at least 4 seconds of DPS time with speed pot while poping Army pre pull.
2) You lose at least 3 additional seconds of DPS time running to the boss.
I think he was talking about using army, then speed pot, then running in, so that's 4 seconds extra army time.

OTOH, if you want to Sigil of the Hanged Man buff to be up when you pop gargoyle, you need time for 3 scourge strikes. Even if you used the speed pot immediately before the pull, you wouldn't have time to get them in before the speed pot buff fell off. Even if you're using the Sigil of Virulence, it'll be tight, since you want to put up frost fever and blood plague and get desolation up before you hit that first SS.

IMO if what's on the PTR goes live and frost becomes the best subspec, it will be interesting to see if there's a reliable way to get a gargoyle up within the first few seconds of the fight with both bloodlust/heroism and the speed pot haste.

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Old 03/16/10, 3:24 PM   #2949
Bandee
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
<SA>
Black Dragonflight
Did you even read the whole post? I said cast AoTD and then potion of speed. The only lost time is 3 seconds running to the boss. Thus, you only get 12 seconds of the speed potion. In terms of EP values:

97 ap for 2 min. is basically 97 EP averaged out in those 2 min.
500 haste for 12 seconds is (500*1.95*0.1) = 97.5 EP

97.5 > 97. 1.95 was the value of haste, and the 0.1 is referring to the average time it was up in the 2 min. As in, 12 seconds/120 seconds. The difference between the two is 0.5 and thus, they are essentially the same. However, you need to take into account the fact that if you pre-pot Potion of Speed instead of Indestructible Potion, your gargoyle will get the 500 haste instead of the 97 AP. This is a larger gain in DPS than losing 4 seconds of army time.

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Old 03/16/10, 3:36 PM   #2950
 arison
King Hippo
 
arison's Avatar
 
Pandaren Hunter
 
Windrunner
Originally Posted by Bandee View Post
Did you even read the whole post? I said cast AoTD and then potion of speed. The only lost time is 3 seconds running to the boss. Thus, you only get 12 seconds of the speed potion. In terms of EP values:

97 ap for 2 min. is basically 97 EP averaged out in those 2 min.
500 haste for 12 seconds is (500*1.95*0.1) = 97.5 EP

97.5 > 97. 1.95 was the value of haste, and the 0.1 is referring to the average time it was up in the 2 min. As in, 12 seconds/120 seconds. The difference between the two is 0.5 and thus, they are essentially the same. However, you need to take into account the fact that if you pre-pot Potion of Speed instead of Indestructible Potion, your gargoyle will get the 500 haste instead of the 97 AP. This is a larger gain in DPS than losing 4 seconds of army time.
Not only that but generally you will hero within the first ten seconds or so, which means you can pop gargoyle under the effects of both. Engineers get an even more extreme boost from Hyperspeed Accelerators which you also would be using on the pull (and every time it is off cooldown). Given other procs from trinkets, sigils, set bonuses, etc, which almost always line up right at the pull but separate during a fight, haste has an even bigger effect. Holding off popping gargoyle til the end of the potion so heroism, other procs, etc are up is the best move.

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Old 03/16/10, 10:40 PM   #2951
Mild Confusion
Piston Honda
 
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Worgen Death Knight
 
Medivh
This will be moot shortly anyhow if frost subspec turns out to be higher dps. No bladed armor means armor pot is useless.

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Old 03/17/10, 6:41 PM   #2952
NaeblisHyjal
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by Wowzers View Post
Good news regarding pet scaling with the ICC buff:



Source: http://worldofraids.com/
Would this affect gargoyles and army of the dead as well?

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Old 03/18/10, 1:18 AM   #2953
 frmorrison
Protector
 
frmorrison's Avatar
 
Ashstrike
Human Paladin
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by NaeblisHyjal View Post
Would this affect gargoyles and army of the dead as well?
They are guardians (like Blood Worms) so I doubt it.

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Old 03/19/10, 4:24 AM   #2954
neomasterc
Piston Honda
 
neomasterc's Avatar
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Cho'gall
An issue that arose while doing the Sindragosa achievement (All you can eat) was the pet getting stacks of mystical buffet and failing the achievement. Does anyone have confirmation that this bug still exists? Because I've heard both sides of the story and several addons announce pet "failing" the achievement.

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Old 03/19/10, 10:29 AM   #2955
bigdan
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Gul'dan (EU)
Originally Posted by neomasterc View Post
An issue that arose while doing the Sindragosa achievement (All you can eat) was the pet getting stacks of mystical buffet and failing the achievement. Does anyone have confirmation that this bug still exists? Because I've heard both sides of the story and several addons announce pet "failing" the achievement.
Pet and gargoyle failed the heroic 'Permafrost' achievment in pit of saron a few weeks ago, too.

I dont know if it has been fixed.

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