Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 199

Sahlia · 03/23/10, 7:20 AM

Originally Posted by IPolyakov

But i think people who are significantly under the expertise cap will have some problems with hte new spec, in the 14057 we had free gcd's to use in case of dodges and now with the 01754 it's going to become a problem..

No. I am having quite good gear with Bryntoll Heroic and i am getting a 300 DPS increase over 14/0/57 though i am having currently only 42 EXP rating, giving me talented a total of 10 Expertise.

But it's only a very special case since i will try to raise my expertise now. I was surprised to drop that low in expertise with some of the BIS gear.

Personally i am going to use 1/17/53 because i think that 1 point into Subversion won't cost much DPS (about 20) when you take it out of Dirge or Necrosis, but you get some threat reduction and over time a GCD which could be used even better by AMS.

Illu · 03/23/10, 7:41 AM

I looked back a bit yet could not find exactly the answer I was looking for; does anyone know if Ghoul Frenzy will still be as meh as it is now with the Frost subspec and its haste, over the extra blood strike? Template parses seem to suggest that the extra haste scales with the ghoul as other sources currently do, so hence the wondering.

Sealpup · 03/23/10, 7:48 AM

Originally Posted by arison

there aren't really that many AOE fights of importance left before Cataclysm. Nothing like Anub, certainly.

Having attempted heroic Lich King fight, I would argue that it is an important fight to do more diseases damage. The Valkyrs are stunned when they grab someone, opening up a great opportunity of area of effects, almost if not the same as Anub'arak + 2 adds, only this is the Lich King +3.

Aryee · 03/23/10, 9:25 AM

The greatest advantage of the frost subspec I see is the greatly reduced constraints on the rotation. Having 2 blood runes available every 8 seconds is a huge advantage for quick reaction scenarios that reaping just doesn't support. For instance Bone Spikes on Marrowgar will now be much easier to either spread diseases to or quickly cleave via Blood Boil, you won't need to time pestilence to land specifically at the start of your rotation on Saurfang etc.

The 4% extra strength is excellent for non-contact fights such as Deathwhisper or PP, since this will allow for greater DPS from your ghoul left on the boss while running between switching targets, not to mention capping out RP before running between targets for 3 DC's likely means you are constantly on GCD while moving.

The major implications of this subspec being viable is just the quality of life it provides, being able to do DPS on par and even surpassing reaping+blood because we're no longer obliged to use a 4th Scourge Strike to maximise DPS and can use the blood runes to deal with any number of situations without wasting a significant 3 points in our spec.

Hyber · 03/23/10, 10:04 AM

Agreed, Aryee.

Nice update, Consider. Thank you for maintaining this thread so well.

Here's some feedback on the updated guide. Hope its useful.

Why spec Unholy when you could go Frost which now holds equivalent (if not superior) single target sustained dps, superior AoE burst, Improved Icy Talons, and a more dynamic rotation to its name?

For the purposes of "compare and contrast", could you further specify the pros and cons between the two? A lot of guilds will be trying to decide the most optimal spec line-up for their DPS DKs.

I was unaware that Frost had gained so much ground in single-target DPS. Is this only while DW, or is 2h Frost viable once more? That might be a worthy offspec for Dreamweaver. ICC 25m does not offer many opportunities for non-trash sustained AoE.

Furthermore, I've seen some math on Bryntroll proc rates and how they benefit from the increased haste of Frost. I know your guide is already massive (and well done, btw!), but slotting those numbers in there somewhere would be very helpful for GMs, raid leaders, etc, who might have a tough time "making the case" for their DK DPS to put aside their newer weps and start packing Bryntroll again.

Lastly, if the improved haste from Frost or sub-Frost improves the value of Bryntroll so much, are there arguments to be made for moving [Herkuml War Token] and [Tiny Abomination in a Jar] up the scale in terms of trinkets? Or does the +4% strength from Endless Winter help the top trinkets hold the line?

rhackin · 03/23/10, 12:18 PM

Bug Fixes:
Blood Plague: Applying this disease can no longer separately trigger effects from weapons.
Frost Fever: Applying this disease can no longer separately trigger effects from weapons.

^This seems to suck. Didn't notice this in earlier patch notes.

diospadre · 03/23/10, 1:46 PM

I wonder if that's only talking about refreshing with GoD, or actually applies to PS/IT.

Sacros · 03/23/10, 1:49 PM

Ignore/delete post I made a mistake on the simulator.

Ashenray · 03/23/10, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Hyber

I was unaware that Frost had gained so much ground in single-target DPS. Is this only while DW, or is 2h Frost viable once more? That might be a worthy offspec for Dreamweaver. ICC 25m does not offer many opportunities for non-trash sustained AoE.

I do know that 2h frost isn't not comparable to Unholy or Blood for 2h specs. This question has been asked on several different sites I've been reading and everyone has said it's not worth it. The problem with anything frost is that the sim results are always higher at least that's according to people here on EJ and other sites.

Bcron · 03/23/10, 1:59 PM

I am thinking the initial damage from PS/IT will still cause procs to occur.

I believe the mechanic was that PS or IT would have 2 chances to trigger a proc: from the initial damage of the attack, and from applying the disease. This was seen with Bryntroll pre-nerfs when using Pestilence in an AoE situation, which could potentially cause multiple Drain Life procs from a single Pestilence (sometimes the number of procs would be so high as to almost certainly be caused by applying diseases to N mobs via Pestilence).

I might be horribly wrong, but in regards to causing weapon procs, it would seem disease applications may have behaved like binary spells pre-3.3.3 (with 100% chance to hit if the initial attack lands), and those 'binary spells' would have a chance to cause procs (as seen with the Pestilence AoE scenarios). I presume Blizz is just cleaning up the way diseases behave, since they are reworking the mechanics of GoD and Icy Talons, and Unholy Blight dispel immunity.

sivnet · 03/23/10, 2:19 PM

As stated all weapon based procs are affected. FC and the likes. Not sure off the top of my head how many weapons besides bryn, shadowmourne that have a proc effect.

Bcron, I think you are correct. Hit the target with IT, chance to proc, frost fever gets applied, chance to proc. I do wonder if they say weapon based procs if that includes on hit with trinkets such as Death Bringers will. Since a lot of trinkets are worded 'deal damage' they shouldn't be affected.

Card · 03/23/10, 2:25 PM

I have been running some sims for a spec that I have not seen but was curious to how well it would do in 3.3.3. I have not seen any sims posted using the spec I had in mind so here is what I found. This was using the latest Kahorie I downloaded today(1.2.1.1). The options I used were Character: 2h ICC, the template was my own using this spec and glyphs: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...ze79,HFp,11623 Rotation: Unholy-Reapingless, blood pressence, Sigil: virulence, Fallen crusader, Blood runes synched, patch 3.3.3 was checked, use pets, and wait for FC proc was also checked. No ICC buff was used. That being said here were my results:

3/15/53:

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances		Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
MainHand	239825660	21.3	43837	7301.3	17076	39	4190.1	15771	36	8626.3			10990	25.1	2932.7
ScourgeStrike	132223439	11.7	16046	8240.3	7803	48.6	4828	8243	51.4	11470.4
Ghoul	127434861	11.3	119305	1068.1	103725	86.9	951.4	15580	13.1	1845.5
DeathCoil	93308369	8.3	14621	6381.8	9047	61.3	4546.6	5574	37.7	9360.5	146	1
BloodStrike	91268047	8.1	21600	4225.4	11780	54.5	2852	9820	45.5	5872.9
ScourgeStrikeMagical	72972350	6.5	16046	4547.7	7803	48.6	2664.4	8243	51.4	6330.5
FrostFever	69725127	6.2	32132	2170	32132	100										100
BloodPlague	58896394	5.2	32406	1817.5	32406	100										100
Gargoyle	51929491	4.6	9996	5195	8730	86.4	4612.6	1266	12.5	9211	111	1.1
Necrosis	46598804	4.1	43837	1063	43837	100
BloodCakedBlade	37336068	3.3	12982	2876	12982	100	2876
WanderingPlague	34675401	3.1	17486	1983	17486	98.9					203	1.1
PlagueStrike	26853707	2.4	5554	4835	3190	57.4	3043.9	2364	42.6	7252
IcyTouch	22519795	2	5554	4054.7	3498	62.4	2910.9	2056	36.7	6000.8	51	.9
AotD	11556386	1	71659	161.3	62013	86.5	161	9646	13.5	162.8
UnholyBlight	9334091	.8	14621	638.4	14621	100
DPS	10430(+/- 528)
Total Damage	1126.46m	in 30h
Threat Per Second	5244
Generated in	11s
Template:	3_15_53
Rotation:	Unholy-ReapingLess
Presence:	Blood
Sigil:	Virulence
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation:	True

Same options used as the previous sim, but using 0/17/54:

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances		Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
MainHand	245278436	22	43834	7468	17078	39	4286.1	15766	36	8827.3			10990	25.1	2994.6
Ghoul	131154718	11.7	119302	1099.4	103805	87	980.2	15497	13	1897.4
ScourgeStrike	125057263	11.2	16046	7793.7	9210	57.4	4914.6	6836	42.6	11672.6
DeathCoil	112936948	10.1	15675	7204.9	9725	61.4	5135.8	5950	37.6	10586.8	151	1
BloodStrike	87188799	7.8	21600	4036.5	13651	63.2	2905.2	7949	36.8	5979.4
ScourgeStrikeMagical	69019116	6.2	16046	4301.3	9210	57.4	2712.7	6836	42.6	6441.7
BloodPlague	60224215	5.4	32238	1868.1	32238	100										100
FrostFever	59772779	5.3	32131	1860.3	32131	100										100
Gargoyle	53966116	4.8	10152	5315.8	8839	86	4705.9	1313	12.8	9422	120	1.2
BloodCakedBlade	38180803	3.4	12982	2941.1	12982	100	2941.1
WanderingPlague	32490835	2.9	17438	1863.2	17438	98.8					203	1.2
Necrosis	28590876	2.6	43834	652.3	43834	100
PlagueStrike	27356912	2.4	5554	4925.6	3186	57.4	3100.3	2368	42.6	7381.5
IcyTouch	23097035	2.1	5554	4158.6	3494	62.3	2983.8	2060	36.8	6151.2	51	.9
AotD	11785269	1.1	71659	164.5	62091	86.6	163	9568	13.4	173.8
UnholyBlight	11289711	1	15675	720.2	15675	100
DPS	10346(+/- 538)
Total Damage	1117.39m	in 30h
Threat Per Second	6875
Generated in	11s
Template:	Unholy 00-17-54
Rotation:	Unholy-ReapingLess
Presence:	Blood
Sigil:	Virulence
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation:	True

And this is 14/0/57 with the same options:

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances		Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
MainHand	227330183	20.5	37978	7992.5	14028	36.9	4511.4	14415	38	9291.9			9535	25.1	3156.9
ScourgeStrike	142362056	12.8	16046	8872.1	7499	46.7	5118.9	8547	53.3	12165.2
Ghoul	116999745	10.5	108614	1077.2	94248	86.8	960.6	14366	13.2	1842.4
DeathCoil	102183404	9.2	16741	6103.8	10076	59.6	4290.9	6665	39.4	8844.5	160	.9
BloodStrike	98276973	8.8	21600	4549.9	11315	52.4	3024.8	10285	47.6	6227.6
ScourgeStrikeMagical	72595703	6.5	16046	4524.2	7499	46.7	2610.4	8547	53.3	6203.4
FrostFever	66285520	6	32125	2063.4	32125	100										100
BloodPlague	56030901	5	32407	1729	32407	100										100
Gargoyle	47186738	4.2	8749	5393.4	7640	86.4	4788.5	1109	12.5	9560.4	93	1.1
Necrosis	44168437	4	37978	1163	37978	100
BloodCakedBlade	34848954	3.1	11249	3098	11249	100	3098
WanderingPlague	34335579	3.1	18219	1884.6	18219	98.9					208	1.1
PlagueStrike	29124277	2.6	5554	5243.8	3084	55.5	3249.4	2470	44.5	7734
IcyTouch	18779125	1.7	5554	3381.2	3393	60.5	2392.5	2161	38.6	4933.6	51	.9
AotD	10880219	1	64171	169.6	55857	87	169.4	8314	13	170.4
UnholyBlight	10218750	.9	16741	610.4	16741	100
DPS	10293(+/- 576)
Total Damage	1111.61m	in 30h
Threat Per Second	5256
Generated in	10s
Template:	14_0_57
Rotation:	Unholy-ReapingLess
Presence:	Blood
Sigil:	Virulence
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation:	True

The difference between 3/15/53 and 0/17/54 are 1 less point in Dirge, no endless winter, 3 points in subversion which give 9% crit to scourge and blood strike. It could be some RNG that is making this spec higher or maybe I have simmed something wrong. Please try it yourself and let me know if you get similar results.

I also found it interesting that the 3/15/53 spec had the smallest +/- range according to the newest Kahorie's

Just wanted to add in that this is going to be higher single target dps where as 0/17/54 will still probably win out in AOE fights.

I also wanted to add in the sims I got using my own gear. Same options as the other sims except inputing my stats from armory. Without linking the entire tables to make this thread a wall of tables the numbers I got were:
14/0/57: 9815(+/- 589)
0/17/54: 9894(+/- 495)
3/15/53: 9956(+/- 603)
Keep in mind I am using Shadow's Edge which does not get as big of a boost from switching to 0/17/54 which has been discussed and acknowledged in the OP. However the gain from switching to 3/15/53 seems to be very big for me.

micronSD · 03/23/10, 3:11 PM

Originally Posted by Sacros

The new (1.2.1.1) version of Kahorie's simulator seems to indicate that 0/17/54 is weaker than the previous version suggested. 0/17/54 will not beat 14/0/57 in single target dps even with a heroic bryntroll unless you are obtaining a certain amount of extra RP/time. This means that if you aren't getting regular RP generation from resto druids and disc priests and/or using AMS to soak RP, 14/0/57 will do more DPS. If you aren't using a bryntroll or shadowmourne, it is likely that 0/17/54 will not beat 14/0/57 for you even with extra RP income, according to the new version of the simulator.

Your 0/17/54 sims arent using the glyph of Icy Touch. Theyre using the glyph of Scourge Strike, most likely.

Originally Posted by Card

I also wanted to add in the sims I got using my own gear. Same options as the other sims except inputing my stats from armory. Without linking the entire tables to make this thread a wall of tables the numbers I got were:
14/0/57: 9815(+/- 589)
0/17/54: 9894(+/- 495)
3/15/53: 9956(+/- 603)
Keep in mind I am using Shadow's Edge which does not get as big of a boost from switching to 0/17/54 which has been discussed and acknowledged in the OP. However the gain from switching to 3/15/53 seems to be very big for me.

Same issue. Your 0/17/54 sims arent using the glyph of IT.

Card · 03/23/10, 3:23 PM

Originally Posted by micronSD

Your 0/17/54 sims arent using the glyph of Icy Touch. Theyre using the glyph of Scourge Strike, most likely.

Same issue. Your 0/17/54 sims arent using the glyph of IT.

Ah your right. I thought it was a bit strange it was beating 0/17/54. Thanks!

Resimming with the correct glyph put 0/17/54 back ahead.

slant · 03/23/10, 5:43 PM

Without heroic Bryntroll or Shadowmourne frost subspec sims as a vanishingly small improvement over blood; 0.4% for my character. You basically need to weigh substantial threat reduction against free interrupts and slightly superior (~5% on 4 targets) AE.

Once you get heroic Bryntroll or Shadowmourne, the additional procs from 25% passive haste and 10% proc damage from black ice push frost subspec further ahead. Without these proc weapons, it comes down to a subjective value judgment.