Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 20

Consider · 09/17/09, 12:57 PM

PS gives 15 RP (+5 from Dirge).
Butchery gives 4 RP (2/5seconds).

Thus, 79.

Tsubbi · 09/17/09, 12:57 PM

ps=15 (dirge)
it=20 (glyph)
butchery=4 per 10 secs

79RP/10secs seems correct

diospadre · 09/17/09, 12:58 PM

Butchery is 4, not 2, RP per 10, and Dirge affects PS, so that's another 5 for your missing 7.

damn it

Jackinthegreen · 09/17/09, 3:09 PM

IF my math is right, then it would take ~1378 haste (42%) with Wrath of Air and Boomkin/Ret aura to reach the GCD cap for our spells in blood presence. I don't see this even being remotely feasible really.

That said though, getting to 1.33 GCD would require 410 haste, or only 148ish with Boomkin/Ret aura. 1.25 requires 656 or 394. Finally, 1.16 would be 937 or 675 haste.

1.25 (technically 1.28) would safely allow another spell to be cast assuming 6 in the regular rotation (or just shorten the rotation by 1.5 seconds), so haste is certainly looking good.

crazy dodo · 09/17/09, 3:58 PM

Thanks to the people who clarified where the extra RP comes from, shame on me for not catching that.

Now as far as rotation can anyone confirm if this would be the optimal cycle

(Horn at start) PS - IT - SS - BS - BS - DC - DC x5
PS - IT - SS - BS - BS - BT - Bone Shield - BT cancel - DC - DC

Repeat

Since Bone Shield more than supplies the extra 10RP needed every 100s you won't ever need to pause to reapply Horn (especialy if someone else is doing it or you have shammy totem)

In which case the only question is what's the best place in the rotation to break for Gargoyle and use ERW. I'm guessing right after the second BS pop Garg then burn ERW then restart the rotation from the begining.

Any suggestions?

Farno · 09/17/09, 4:21 PM

Is it never worth starting with IT in the rotation first? Seeing as you never start a boss at 5 yard range as you'd probably die due to proximity agro. Or perhaps the small dps gain from the first few seconds is lost by messing up of the rune cooldowns? I understand the logic of doing PS first, due to rage of rivendare affecting the spells and abilities.

• frmorrison · 09/17/09, 5:45 PM

Originally Posted by Farno

Is it never worth starting with IT in the rotation first? Seeing as you never start a boss at 5 yard range as you'd probably die due to proximity agro. Or perhaps the small dps gain from the first few seconds is lost by messing up of the rune cooldowns? I understand the logic of doing PS first, due to rage of rivendare affecting the spells and abilities.

The Rage damage buff affects the disease damage from IT as well, so you want that buff up first. Also, waiting for you to run up to melee range means more time for the tank to build up initial aggro.

Afabar · 09/17/09, 6:14 PM

Originally Posted by crazy dodo

(Horn at start) PS - IT - SS - BS - BS - DC - DC x5
PS - IT - SS - BS - BS - BT - Bone Shield - BT cancel - DC - DC

I don't see the added value to cancel BT buff as you will use it as a blood rune anyway.

teiglin · 09/17/09, 6:28 PM

Originally Posted by Afabar

I don't see the added value to cancel BT buff as you will use it as a blood rune anyway.

I suspect it's just a holdover from when you wanted that rune to be a death rune on the next cycle for an SS. Leaving it as a death rune will affect the order in which your runes are used on the next cycle, but the long-term impact would be next to nothing.

diospadre · 09/17/09, 6:41 PM

Originally Posted by Farno

Is it never worth starting with IT in the rotation first? Seeing as you never start a boss at 5 yard range as you'd probably die due to proximity agro. Or perhaps the small dps gain from the first few seconds is lost by messing up of the rune cooldowns? I understand the logic of doing PS first, due to rage of rivendare affecting the spells and abilities.

Threat issues aside, throwing up IT as you run in is almost certainly the way to go post-patch, and likely on live as well. Doing so effectively buys you one extra GCD, and it is hard to think of a way to spend that GCD that will do less damage than 10% on the IT and 5 ticks of Frost Fever. Given the way runes come off cooldown, it is very easy to switch back to PS first.

Consider · 09/18/09, 3:15 AM

Personally, I start with IT on ranged pulls, then as Diospadre says, switch back to PS first once I'm stationary, as that tends to be optimal, and hence why that's how it's handled in the OP. One GCD > 10% IT damage, however once you're still you lose that extra GCD from IT first, so 10% IT > nothing. In a perfect rotation with no extra RP from AMS/Revitalize/Etc and no lag, it wouldn't matter, as you would always be reusing both before FF/BP fell off, but yeah - that might be how it is on paper, but in reality it isn't.

Also have to remember that on half the fights in TotC you can start in melee range, due to how the boss encounters start, so it becomes a simple decision.

________________________________

So, since it was brought up by Bensch, I've been doing some more live testing of 17/0/54 in comparison to 0/17/54 Oblit and 3/13/55 Oblit - running a lot of sims and doing some good old paper math.

Apparently I was quite wrong (as I'll be the first to admit) in being so quick to discard the possibility on live since it's seemingly more than just a possibility.

Using my own gear (minus the 4p t9 bonus, which I set as not having, as it essentially does nothing currently) instead of the default 2h Uld set used in the previous tests by myself/Bensch (this is the key point, as when I/Bensch used the 2h Uld set it was shown to be a neutral dps change or, at the most, a single digit difference from live. That gear set, however, is rather weak compared to what most people have, and I myself am nowhere near BiS or anything amazing), I am getting a much larger gap between the two - over 100 dps (~7515 average for 17/0/54 as opposed to ~7400 for 0/17/54)*. Factoring out the Subversion change since it's obviously not live (Dirge was covered for 0/17/54 by adding 5 RP per 5 seconds), the first still comes out a solid 50-75 dps ahead. What more is that when I changed the tests to using the X fights of 350s length, the dps gap went up to ~170 dps, which would put it ~125-150 dps ahead.

Without some actual parses/more sims of other people, I wouldn't (yet) go so far as to call it optimal and definitely worth speccing in to - but it is pretty interesting stuff and enough (for me, anyways) to switch and see how it performs in an actual raid. So long as your gear is superior to the 2h Ulduar set in the sim (which it probably is for most raiders, as that set is fairly 'bleh' at this point), it has a lot of potential.

As such, I went ahead and added 17/0/54 to the "live server" part of the OP. Currently it's just in the specs, but I'll also add in the stat weights/rotation/glyphs/etc to all of those areas. Simple enough to do since I merely have to drag the text down from the Changes section and then slightly edit it as appropriate. I'll do it in the morning, assuming I don't forget.

*Live spec aside, these numbers also show that going forward, we'll scale better with the new 17/0/54 build than we would have with either of the Oblit builds, which is always a plus.

After playing with it for a bit, I will say this though; the spec certainly does take some getting used to - refreshing diseases when they have 5+ seconds left, and not having a single empty gcd (even with only HoWing every 100 seconds) is quite odd feeling.

I think the best part about all of this is that, assuming it is true and that 17/0/54 is currently a dps wash at worse or a dps gain more likely, that means a SS build (and thus SS) has been viable this entire time. And apparently no one - GC and the devs included - caught the possibility of it until these patch notes. So we never had to touch Obliterate, they never had to buff Subversion or nerf Dirge (although both of those changes are good for the long run, regardless). The list goes on. Very, very amusing. Haha.

Props to Bensch for being the first!

• frmorrison · 09/18/09, 9:37 AM

Originally Posted by Consider

After playing with it for a bit, I will say this though; the spec certainly does take some getting used to - refreshing diseases when they have 5+ seconds left

And apparently no one - GC and the devs included - caught the possibility of it until these patch notes. So we never had to touch Obliterate, they never had to buff Subversion or nerf Dirge (although both of those changes are good for the long run, regardless). The list goes on. Very, very amusing. Haha.

I thought Unholy used a priority system of refreshing diseases when they are about fall off, so the 3.2+ SS build instead uses a rotation where you clip diseases?

Edit: Due to a 15 second diseases in the SS build, you have to refresh diseases earlier.

EJ has a large influence, people copy/paste stuff here in other places. Whatever is posted here is usually taken as gospel, even if it is isn't totally accurate. While the Oblit build may have been unnecessary, I like that Subversion was buffed because of it, since it encourages people to go to the Blood tree which rewards people wearing Plate via Bladed Armor (I like if Plate is always better than the same item level Leather/Mail).

On another note, your thread title displays strangely, it appears you are trying to link an image when it should just be text.

Bensch78 · 09/18/09, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

I thought Unholy used a priority system of refreshing diseases when they are about fall off, so the 3.2+ SS build instead uses a rotation where you clip diseases?

EJ has a large influence, people copy/paste stuff here in other places. Whatever is posted here is usually taken as gospel, even if it is isn't totally accurate. While the Oblit build may have been unnecessary, I like that Subversion was buffed because of it, since it encourages people to go to the Blood tree which rewards people wearing Plate via Bladed Armor (I dislike if non-plate is almost as good as Leather/Mail).

On another note, your thread title displays strangely, it appears you are trying to link an image when it should just be text.

We did many sims with or without reaping, with or without epidemic, with or without SS and this new 17-0-54 showed up as the winner. Even now on live-servers.

You don´t actually lose any disease-ticks. In a 20-second-rotation the diseases tick 6 times (3,6,9,12,15,18). In the 10-second rotation now they tick 3 times. Making a total of 6 ticks in 20 seconds as before. (3,6,9,13,16,19). Because of this clipping is no problem.

Consider · 09/18/09, 10:23 AM

Thread title fixed. Not sure how that happened, but editting things at 4am will do that, I suppose.

You actually do lose some disease ticks (which is why 4p t9, although still incredible, has a lower EP value in the stat weights), or at least the simulator believes you do - and I'm inclined to believe. A better way to think of it is not how many disease ticks you have but how many you lose - in a 20 second rotation, you apply them once, losing somewhere between 0-3 seconds of diseases ticking (even if they wouldn't have ticked during that time). In a 10 second rotation you apply them once, losing between 0-3 seconds of diseases ticking, thus it happening twice as often, meaning you're losing more time. The reason why simply looking at the number of ticks doesn't work is because where Oblit builds do have a clean 20 second rotation, SS does not - it's over 10 seconds (which makes it over 20), as previously discussed in terms of haste.

Anyways, some pic proof:

(The reason the numbers in these two are both about 50 dps higher than the ones I previous offered was because draenei aura was turned on. They both gained almost the exact same dps from it, so it wouldn't have changed anything in my previous post)

diospadre · 09/18/09, 10:42 AM

cancel that