Thats not really true at all. Frost subspec and Shadow's Edge/Cryptmaker suffer no dps loss compared to Bryntroll.

Depends on the fight.

The difference is that those with bryntroll will see an increase over the blood subspec primarily.

Edit*

You do actually gain a lot by going frost subspec even if you have shadows edge/cryptmaker. On any movement fight where you have diseases ticking while not being in melee range (which is a lot of fights), this spec shines. Also, like the OP says, free mind freezes! So unless you're trying to break records on Saurfang or something, a frost subspec is probably better. Oh and aoe damage increase... why not.

Actually sub frost is more solid on tank and spank fights like saurfang than blood was, because you can gain the benefit of more white swings the most. Melee haste is completely worthless if not in melee range. Blood subspec's reduced DnD cooldown (asuming 12/0/59) and higher death coil damage were both greater assets than a tiny increase in disease damage on fights where you were out of range for significant periods. Death runes allowed IT spam in a worst case scenario where you were going to be out for a significant enough time to have to restart your rotation.

On paper sub frost would be a tiny increase in OOR situations but you have much more flexibility as sub blood in such situations than you do as frost.

hmm I was under the impression sub blood would have done better in tank n spank, but I see your point. My sub blood spec was actually without morbidity so I didn't factor it in on range either. I did well on HM DBS as sub blood(ranked 7th atm I think), but I'll try out subfrost next week.

I do really want to keep death runes because from a utility perspective they're amazing, so I hope you're right haha.

Bladed armor + morbidity together > black ice.

Frost is better on a tank and spank fight -with a proc weapon-. Without a proc weapon they're about the same +/- 200 dps, as the dozens of sims previously conducted in this thread have stated.

Frost is no better and is actually in practice worse when away from the boss on most fights. Deathwhisper HM add DPS without reduced death and decay cooldown while running away from ghosts? Not fun. And yes, threat reduction on such fights is a godsend. I already had adds hitting me in the face frequently as sub blood on that fight, doing it sub frost was much worse. The ability to consistently drop a DnD midair while being knocked back by slimes on Putricide or having to stand out with Unbound Plague? Sub blood gives you more opportunities to use up your runes and keep them used than sub frost does, when out of melee range.

The blood sub-spec allows for reaping which frees up a GCD which can allow for more Death Coils.

I'm trying out the frost sub-spec and one dodge means I'm going to be RP capped on single target fights. Also I'm not getting enough RP on a dummy to do the AE rotation as listed, though that should be alleviated by my resto druids when I raid. Anyone else having either of these problems?

Heya, guys. Hopefully you'll be able to help me out with a bit of a conundrum with the simulators... specifically, Kahorie's is showing that everything that should be buffing my DPS, won't. Right now, I'm simming as 9804 (+/- 644) with current gear; if I replace the equipped Darkmoon Card: Greatness with the Herkuml War Token, this drops to 9701 (+/- 565).
It gets even stranger on the Frost subspec; if I switch out from current 14/0/57 to the new 0/17/54, assuming all current gear remains the same, it drops to a paltry 9409 (+/- 485)! Am I doing something horribly wrong with the sim? Or is it correct in it's statements that these are, in fact, all downgrades for me?
Armory link to character; The World of Warcraft Armory - Heartshatter @ Silver Hand - Profile

Please help as soon as possible, or tell me what I'd need to provide to get help!

On the other hand, Frost-Sub leaves some more AOE-potential.

Besides, it is a 250 DPS increase for me (having Bryntoll HC).

The rotation fits quite well, i still have some free GCD to use AMS and so on. It worked quite good overall.

I see no point (besides of aggroreduce) to sub specc blood. It even makes some situations slightly easier as i can now use my blood runes whenever they are up, making them more useful on fights like LK, Deathwhisper where Reaping was too often just a waste of talent points.

Hey Consider, I was just wondering if the stat weights you posted a couple of weeks ago for sub frost are what they should be now the patch is live or if there's a updated stat weight?

Im having no issues being GCD capped in raids. Im even able to use Blood Tap/Blood Strike at times with an occasional Horn of Winter.

@ Saeten: No, those seem perfectly right for your gear. I don't notice any errors. They do a good job of showing just how minor the difference between the two trees is if you don't have a proc weapon!

@ DrKree: The gap shouldn't be that large between the two, and is likely a result of human error. That said, Greatness surpassing Herkuml isn't unlikely - the value of strength went up with the patch, while the value of haste went down.

@ Diello: I get gcd capped as well, but I do happen to raid with 2 resto druids and 1 disc priest (on most fights). Even factoring that in, I still have Frost pulling ahead for me (although I do have Bryntroll, of course). Most of the time I simply drop the HoW for an additional DC or what have you.

@ Xevozz: I have the sub-frost stat weights done (they're hardly any different), I simply haven't decided how to add them. Having two sets of weights - one for Blood and one for Frost - seems a bit clunky, as it would lead to 8 total weights (due to the different gear levels), and would mean I would have to make two sets of tables for the two gemming sections, which is an annoying hassle. On the other hand, having just one set of weights - Frost - doesn't help those who still use a Blood subspec. It doesn't help that the differences between the two are just so minor, which makes deciding how to present it that much more difficult.

I'll make up my mind shortly - but gearing practices won't actually change in 95% of cases.

The one stat which seems to be on the mind of a lot of people, judging by PMs received, is haste. Haste does not particularly increase in value thanks to Icy Talons, and I'm not sure why people seem to think it should. IT giving 20% haste does not increase the value of haste by 20%, not with how haste adds and multiplies. That logic which some people are trying to utilize is rather flawed, and a quick 1-stat-EP-sim via Kahories can show you it's just not the case.

If the increased haste really did increase the value of haste, Frost wouldn't have the worst scaling with haste of any of the three DK specs.