Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 207

prime311 · 03/30/10, 2:52 AM

Utility side of HB? Is there something I'm missing here? Unless you're referring to Chillblains, but that doesn't really have anything to do with HB.

Valtiel · 03/30/10, 3:03 AM

Originally Posted by prime311

Utility side of HB? Is there something I'm missing here? Unless you're referring to Chillblains, but that doesn't really have anything to do with HB.

No, I'm referring to HB being a pretty fantastic snap AoE damage ability with greater range than HS. There's plenty of situations where a KM HB will provide extremely useful splash damage on a fight like LK; HS's cleaving capabilities are fundamentally outdated in a world where the other cleaving hybrids - rets and warrs - can provide similar cleave damage on a far higher number of targets and often at higher range of spread.

However, aren't we discussing frost and blood a bit too much in an UH thread? We should probably focus back to the specc at hand.

Aminah · 03/30/10, 9:15 AM

Originally Posted by prime311

It's not that difficult to maintain 75% health on the vast majority of encounters, especially when you're healing yourself with Death Strike. The reason for the gap on WoL is also because there are virtually no Blood DK's that are ArP capped yet. Although out of the 4 most difficult encounters(Sind, PP, LDW, LK), 3 of them favor Unholy just due to mechanics. Only PP favors Blood. I'm torn on LK though, since Blood isn't inflating their numbers with Drudge Ghouls and Vile Spirits and has higher potential for damage to Raging Spirits, LK, and Valks.

There are a lot of bloods already capped(they usually sacrifice a lot more then they gain, but still.)

And from my own experiences, aoe raid damage that gets you below 75% is way too spikey. You dip down and up, losing a lot of damage. Shouldn't ever sacrifice heart strikes to get a death strike out just to get you over the limit, and it doesnt help that your only supposed to DS twice every 20 seconds.

rh8452 · 03/30/10, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by kc102

@rh84
I find a bunch of the adds tend to stick close to LK, and Ebon Plaguebringer will hit LK at that point doing more damage cause BS does shit damage.

You mean wandering plague.

Depending where you tank LK and adds, WP damage from ghouls hitting LK may result in more damage, we seldom have more than 1-2 adds near him for more than a few seconds so it's not an increase of note. Swapping one BS per rotation for one pest is fine to keep the FF attack speed debuff up or increase necrotic plague damage taken (if EP does indeed increase it, I'll dig through logs to find out later).

I am confused as to how haste would sim at a higher EP in sub blood compared to sub frost, where sub blood has more free GCDs and a lower RP cap, so it must be your gear choices.

As for sub frost's AOE being inferior to sub blood's, I haven't found it to be in practice at all. Damage from WP/diseases is higher, threat reduction isn't an issue on most fights and there's only a few fights where I'd cast DnD at all, plus blood boil hits significantly harder as sub frost. Sub blood just gives more flexibility to account for one's playstyle or fight-specific factors (knockbacks, ghosts chasing you, etc).

In fact, blood boil would almost be a better choice than blood strike against a single target were it not for its lower crit chance, my last WoL parse on LK has its average hit about 50 damage higher than blood strike, but its crit rate is a fair bit lower. However if there's even two targets, BB is vastly superior to BS unless desolation is about to fall off (in sub frost).

Nyth_ · 03/30/10, 7:04 PM

Originally Posted by SylerAttk

I know this is a little off topic from what we are talking about and has been mentioned in the past and tossed aside. But I was messing with SS glyph the other day for a 25 man ICC hard mode and I found it quite usfull. In combination with reaping the amount of SS you can get off with out refreshing seems like a dps gain. Now I gave up glyph of IT for it and I know it sounds bad but I think it out weighs the IT gain a little bit, not to mention helps you relax a bit when you know you only have a few seconds left on your DoTs.

Your view is a bit warped.

As many do, you make the mistake to only look at the gain, instead of seeing it relative to the loss.

Glyph of SS extends your diseases by 9 seconds. Assuming you have epidemic, you're refreshing diseases once every 30 seconds instead of once every 20 seconds.

You gain a SS every minute.

At the same time you lose 1 Plague Strike and 1 Icy touch every minute. People seem to think that the gain is always absolute, but it's not.
At best you gain a few thousand damage every minute, which comes down to a few dozen dps. (Like 50 dps or so at best).
It probably doesn't hold a candle to glyph of IT.

seraphthrone · 03/31/10, 1:19 AM

Did anyone try GoD for the new frost subspec? I wonder if it is better than GoDD for this spec.

Here's a little math I did on GoD:
According to most parses on single dps fights, DC is about 11% total damage done(unholy blight included), SS is about 15% total damage done, BS is about 5% total damage done, IT is about 2% and PS is about 2%

By swapping out GoDD and swapping in GoD, we gain the 1 SS every 3 SS, so 33% damage increase on SS, and we lose 15% damage on DC, 1 BS every 4 BS, so 25% damage decrease on BS, and almost all damage from IT and PS

The total gain = 15%*33% = 5% total damage done, the total lose = 11%*15% + 5%*25% +2% + 2% = 6.9% total damage done.

It seems GoD will provide a lower damage. But, for every 20 seconds, GoD gives 1 more GCD, which allows the time to DC(if soaking RP with AMS or gain RP from revitalization for example). So this 1 GCD needs to make up 1.9% total damage to make it even.

If that GCD is used for DC, for every 20 seconds(4 SS, 3 BS, and 1 Pest leaves 5 free GCD, as oppose to 3 SS, 4 BS, 1 IT, 1 PS, which leaves 4 free GCD), one can toss 5 DC instead of 4 DC.

1 additional DC gives 25% more damage from DC, which is about 11%*85%*25% = 2.34% more total damage done. That is more than 1.9%.

The question is if there is enough RP to do 5 DC every 20 seconds.

The rotation itself provides 4*20+3*10+10 = 120 RP, enough for 3 DC, 2 additional DC require 80 more RP every second.

AMS(to simplify the matter a bit, since both rotations require 1 GCD for AMS, and must use AMS to soak enough RP to cast more than 3 DCs, they even out, so right here I consider AMS to take no GCD) has a 45 second cooldown, so it needs to provide about 170 RP.

If done correctly, when popping AMS, then use 1 DC right away before it fills the whole RP bar, AMS will indeed provide 170 RP, which is enough for the additional DCs. So this 1 additional DC can actually be cast every 20 seconds.

drothar · 03/31/10, 10:28 AM

The OP seems to suggest that you should either be Frost subspec without reaping or Blood subspec with reaping, but is it not worth noting that you can drop 3 points from Ebon Plaguebringer for reaping in the Frost subspec build and maintain 2/2 Endless Winter IFF you have another Unholy DK or a Moonkin while there is no AoE where pesting EP would be necessary. This would seem to give the best of both specs at the same cost of taking 3 points out of Dark Conviction in the Blood subspec.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

If you have the second unholy DK, you can also take 2 points out of Crypt Fever to put in Subversion/Morbidity/Desecration/IUP.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Or am I missing something that makes Reaping less valuable than 3% crit with a Frost subspec?

prime311 · 03/31/10, 10:31 AM

You'd have to pick a lower DPS spec(Reaping) to get the value from the ArP and you'd be losing DPS anytime you're doing multi-target or attacking something that doesn't have both Sunder and 5% armor debuff up. The nominal gain doesn't offset the drawbacks.

Çeen · 03/31/10, 11:06 AM

What is about moving 1 point out of dirge to subversion?

Kahorie's gave me a gain of some dps and you got less problems with your thread in AOE situations.

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances			Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
MainHand	875858579	21,4	147282	8026,1	51948	33,9	4459	57178	37,3	9184,6	5988	3,9	38156	24,9	3120,5
Ghoul	510822013	12,5	445309	1147,1	387432	87	1019,5	57877	13	2001,7
ScourgeStrike	437758629	10,7	53125	8240,2	28640	51,8	5037,8	24485	44,3	11985,9	2182	3,9
DeathCoil	335552497	8,2	47128	7120	29186	61,3	5072,4	17942	37,7	10450,8	497	1
BloodStrike	295189142	7,2	69606	4240,9	41763	57,7	2979,1	27843	38,5	6133,4	2796	3,9
FrostFever	266351827	6,5	109132	2440,6	109132	100										99
ScourgeStrikeMagical	241884514	5,9	53125	4553,1	28640	53,9	2784	24485	46,1	6622,5
BloodPlague	224234710	5,5	109568	2046,5	109568	100										99
Gargoyle	214144896	5,2	37557	5701,9	32555	85,7	5032,9	5002	13,2	10055,5	437	1,2
Necrosis	170177523	4,2	147282	1155,5	147282	100
WanderingPlague	134405212	3,3	60121	2235,6	60121	98,9					671	1,1
BloodCakedBlade	130064959	3,2	42614	3052,2	42614	95,9	3052,2				1803	4,1
PlagueStrike	93175143	2,3	18407	5061,9	10553	55,1	3181,9	7854	41	7588,1	739	3,9
IcyTouch	82561948	2	18310	4509,1	11377	61,5	3213,7	6933	37,5	6634,9	187	1
Army of the Dead	41085715	1	244691	167,9	212865	87	166,8	31826	13	175,6
UnholyBlight	33560703	,8	47128	712,1	47128	100
DPS	11352(+/- 669)
Total Damage	4086,83m	in 100h
Threat Per Second	6815
Generated in	33s
Template:	UhF without Reaping 1 Dirge
Rotation:	Unholy-ReapingLess
Presence:	Blood
Sigil:	HangedMan
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation:	True

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances			Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
MainHand	875536673	21,5	147237	8025,6	51933	33,9	4459,5	57160	37,3	9183,3	5987	3,9	38144	24,9	3120,4
Ghoul	510608173	12,5	445106	1147,2	387269	87	1019,8	57837	13	2000,1
ScourgeStrike	426218624	10,4	53019	8039	30114	54,6	5041,5	22905	41,5	11979,9	2181	4
DeathCoil	361271011	8,9	50862	7103	31503	61,3	5063,1	19359	37,7	10422,5	540	1,1
BloodStrike	287604035	7	69327	4148,5	43642	60,5	2979,6	25685	35,6	6134,6	2788	3,9
FrostFever	263638102	6,5	108099	2438,9	108099	100										99
ScourgeStrikeMagical	235502798	5,8	53019	4441,9	30114	56,8	2785,9	22905	43,2	6619
BloodPlague	221324361	5,4	108470	2040,4	108470	100										99
Gargoyle	213733636	5,2	37552	5691,7	32550	85,7	5022,7	5002	13,2	10044,7	437	1,2
Necrosis	170114928	4,2	147237	1155,4	147237	100
WanderingPlague	133136588	3,3	59667	2231,3	59667	98,9					663	1,1
BloodCakedBlade	129804130	3,2	42596	3047,3	42596	95,9	3047,3				1803	4,1
PlagueStrike	92686019	2,3	18347	5051,8	10514	55,1	3176,8	7833	41	7568,6	738	3,9
IcyTouch	82110908	2	18227	4504,9	11328	61,5	3214,6	6899	37,5	6623,6	186	1
Army of the Dead	41183298	1	244803	168,2	212985	87	167,3	31818	13	174,6
UnholyBlight	36133042	,9	50862	710,4	50862	100
DPS	11335(+/- 616)
Total Damage	4080,61m	in 100h
Threat Per Second	7423
Generated in	32s
Template:	UhFrost wothout Reaping
Rotation:	Unholy-ReapingLess
Presence:	Blood
Sigil:	HangedMan
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation:	True

The 2. point is to regem my orange gems from 10 str/10 crit to 10 str/10 haste.

EP AttackPower	1 (0,7 DPS/per AP)
EP Strength	3,2
EP Agility	1,34
EP CritRating	1,97
EP HasteEstimated	2,77
EP HasteRating1	2,71
EP ArmorPenetrationRating	2,57
EP ExpertiseRating	1,35
Personal Expertise value	2,46
BeforeMeleeHitCap<8%	4
EP SpellHitRating	0,31
EP WeaponDPS	7,43
EP WeaponSpeed	285,71
EP 2T9	169,12
EP 4T9	441,18
EP 2T10	236,76
EP 4T10	401,47

greetz

Ceen

prime311 · 03/31/10, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by drothar

The OP seems to suggest that you should either be Frost subspec without reaping or Blood subspec with reaping, but is it not worth noting that you can drop 3 points from Ebon Plaguebringer for reaping in the Frost subspec build and maintain 2/2 Endless Winter IFF you have another Unholy DK or a Moonkin while there is no AoE where pesting EP would be necessary.

Current Gear ~260 ilvl using Bryntroll

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances		Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
MainHand	743152000	20.3	154974	6488.9	62824	39	3763.5	51703	32.1	7740.6	6284	3.9	40447	25.1	2633.1
Ghoul	424532301	11.6	402472	1054.8	349858	86.9	939.3	52614	13.1	1823.2
ScourgeStrike	387974204	10.6	53204	7292.2	31201	56.3	4647.3	22003	39.7	11042.7	2187	3.9
DeathCoil	306174837	8.4	48594	6300.7	32235	65.8	4644.3	16359	33.4	9564.5	424	.9
BloodStrike	265047307	7.3	70616	3753.4	45787	62.3	2735.2	24829	33.8	5630.9	2839	3.9
FrostFever	235916488	6.5	107510	2194.4	107510	100										99.6
ScourgeStrikeMagical	214339523	5.9	53204	4028.6	31201	58.6	2568.1	22003	41.4	6099.7
BloodPlague	197987753	5.4	107817	1836.3	107817	100										99.5
Gargoyle	161484362	4.4	34699	4653.9	30232	86.3	4122.3	4467	12.8	8251.4	323	.9
Necrosis	144388828	4	154974	931.7	154974	100
Bryntroll	124575220	3.4	33442	3725.1	33442	99.1	3725.1				314	.9
BloodCakedBlade	114913385	3.1	44684	2571.7	44684	96	2571.7				1886	4
WanderingPlague	106724322	2.9	53192	2006.4	53192	99.1					483	.9
PlagueStrike	81972700	2.2	18481	4435.5	11526	60	2923.7	6955	36.2	6940.9	740	3.8
IcyTouch	74342323	2	18563	4004.9	12376	66.1	2960.9	6187	33	6093.2	158	.8
AotD	39281021	1.1	239667	163.9	208436	87	163.4	31231	13	167.5
UnholyBlight	30609528	.8	48594	629.9	48594	100
Horn			245		245	100
BoneShield			1028		1028	100
BloodTap			685		685	100
AshenBand			6681		6681	100										18.5
Greatness			8224		8224	100										34
DeathbringersWill			4114		4114	100										33.5
HangedMan			53204		53204	100										100
MHFallenCrusader			33754		33754	100										85.9
BElfRacial			3086		3086	100
DPS	10148(+/- 992)
Total Damage	3653.42m	in 100h
Threat Per Second	6220
Generated in	37s
Template:	1_17_53_reapingless
Priority:	Unholy
Presence:	Blood
Sigil:	HangedMan
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation:	True

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances		Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
MainHand	722303001	19.5	154971	6307	67651	42	3754.1	46873	29.1	7724.6	6284	3.9	40447	25.1	2627.2
ScourgeStrike	515163053	13.9	70764	7280	41483	56.3	4639.9	29281	39.8	11020.3	2871	3.9
Ghoul	423872808	11.4	402461	1053.2	349996	87	938.2	52465	13	1820.6
DeathCoil	330806579	8.9	53791	6149.8	37272	68.7	4640.7	16519	30.4	9554.9	473	.9
ScourgeStrikeMagical	284730854	7.7	70764	4023.7	41483	58.6	2564.7	29281	41.4	6090.6
FrostFever	238407217	6.4	108978	2187.7	108978	100										99.5
BloodPlague	200317341	5.4	109417	1830.8	109417	100										99.6
Gargoyle	161318454	4.4	34794	4636.4	30361	86.5	4114.6	4433	12.6	8210.2	310	.9
Necrosis	140338635	3.8	154971	905.6	154971	100
BloodStrike	131283323	3.5	35152	3734.7	22798	62.3	2722.5	12354	33.8	5602.7	1413	3.9
Bryntroll	117062324	3.2	31461	3720.9	31461	99.1	3720.9				298	.9
BloodCakedBlade	114746494	3.1	44683	2568	44683	96	2568				1886	4
WanderingPlague	99751628	2.7	49842	2001.4	49842	99.1					449	.9
PlagueStrike	79555723	2.1	18508	4298.5	12123	63	2916.3	6385	33.2	6922.7	741	3.8
IcyTouch	72049210	1.9	18485	3897.7	12886	69.1	2954.9	5599	30	6067.7	157	.8
AotD	39240216	1.1	239667	163.7	208545	87	162.8	31122	13	170.1
UnholyBlight	33072158	.9	53791	614.8	53791	100
Horn			3053		3053	100
BoneShield			1028		1028	100
BloodTap			608		608	100
AshenBand			6585		6585	100										18.2
Greatness			8223		8223	100										34
DeathbringersWill			4114		4114	100										33.5
HangedMan			70764		70764	100										100
MHFallenCrusader			31712		31712	100										84.2
BElfRacial			3086		3086	100
DPS	10289(+/- 956)
Total Damage	3704.02m	in 100h
Threat Per Second	5757
Generated in	58s
Template:	2_17_52_Reaping_NoEbon
Priority:	Unholy
Presence:	Blood
Sigil:	HangedMan
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation:	True

BiS Gear using Shadowmourne Orc

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances		Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
MainHand	1031492223	22.1	146673	9454.5	48528	32.7	5171.3	60573	40.8	10640.6	1747	1.2	37572	25.3	3619.9
ScourgeStrike	524295163	11.2	53395	9819.2	26646	49.3	5813	26749	49.5	13810	662	1.2
Ghoul	512000712	10.9	398530	1284.7	346277	85.8	1143.8	52253	13	2218.6	4861	1.2
DeathCoil	371753699	7.9	47367	7848.4	27504	56.6	5433.1	19863	40.9	11192.8	1187	2.4
BloodStrike	356786066	7.6	71179	5012.5	39998	55.5	3424	31181	43.3	7050.2	865	1.2
ScourgeStrikeMagical	289907260	6.2	53395	5429.5	26646	49.9	3214.4	26749	50.1	7636.1
FrostFever	288582245	6.2	108314	2664.3	108314	100										99.7
BloodPlague	242837830	5.2	108640	2235.3	108640	100										99.7
Gargoyle	202005414	4.3	33990	5943.1	29583	85	5261.2	4407	12.7	10520.1	819	2.4
Necrosis	200399929	4.3	146673	1366.3	146673	100
WanderingPlague	156531900	3.3	64227	2437.2	64227	97.6					1608	2.4
BloodCakedBlade	153057849	3.3	43272	3537.1	43272	98.7	3537.1				560	1.3
PlagueStrike	113259418	2.4	18510	6118.8	9869	52.7	3727.6	8641	46.1	8849.9	220	1.2
IcyTouch	94108821	2	18553	5072.4	10740	56.5	3506.6	7813	41.1	7224.9	450	2.4
Shadowmourne	55021328	1.2	33226	1656	33226	98.7	1656				435	1.3				46.1
AotD	48116236	1	237155	202.9	205805	85.8	201.9	31350	13.1	209.4	2746	1.1
UnholyBlight	37175105	.8	47367	784.8	47367	100
Horn			423		423	100
BoneShield			1028		1028	100
BloodTap			554		554	100
AshenBand			6678		6678	100										18.5
DeathChoiceHeroic			8224		8224	100										34.1
DeathbringersWill			4114		4114	100										33.5
HangedMan			53395		53395	100										100
MHFallenCrusader			35754		35754	100										87.6
OrcRacial			3086		3086	100										12.9
DPS	12993(+/- 1151)
Total Damage	4677.33m	in 100h
Threat Per Second	8026
Generated in	35s
Template:	1_17_53_reapingless
Priority:	Unholy
Presence:	Blood
Sigil:	HangedMan
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation:	True

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances		Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
MainHand	1004027778	21.2	146666	9203.1	53040	35.7	5157.8	56057	37.8	10611.9	1747	1.2	37569	25.3	3609
ScourgeStrike	695120251	14.6	70920	9801.5	35413	49.3	5802.2	35507	49.5	13790.2	877	1.2
Ghoul	511611683	10.8	398546	1283.7	345986	85.8	1142.1	52560	13	2215.5	4805	1.2
DeathCoil	401949619	8.5	52475	7659.8	32071	59.6	5427.5	20404	37.9	11168.7	1312	2.4
ScourgeStrikeMagical	384241198	8.1	70920	5418	35413	49.9	3207.6	35507	50.1	7622.4
FrostFever	289478990	6.1	109156	2652	109156	100										99.6
BloodPlague	243605289	5.1	109458	2225.6	109458	100										99.7
Gargoyle	200531726	4.2	33863	5921.9	29484	84.9	5242.9	4379	12.6	10493.3	882	2.5
Necrosis	195063986	4.1	146666	1330	146666	100
BloodStrike	177388829	3.7	35568	4987.3	19959	55.4	3402.3	15609	43.4	7014.1	432	1.2
BloodCakedBlade	152656607	3.2	43270	3528	43270	98.7	3528				560	1.3
WanderingPlague	148454665	3.1	61129	2428.5	61129	97.6					1514	2.4
PlagueStrike	110046992	2.3	18514	5944	10419	55.6	3710.5	8095	43.2	8818.6	220	1.2
IcyTouch	91456153	1.9	18515	4939.6	11278	59.5	3496.1	7237	38.2	7189.1	450	2.4
Shadowmourne	53257290	1.1	32200	1654	32200	98.7	1654				417	1.3				44.7
AotD	48036546	1	236947	202.7	206563	86.1	201.3	30384	12.7	212.1	2922	1.2
UnholyBlight	40195217	.8	52475	766	52475	100
Horn			4763		4763	100
BoneShield			1028		1028	100
BloodTap			379		379	100
AshenBand			6551		6551	100										18.1
DeathChoiceHeroic			8224		8224	100										34
DeathbringersWill			4114		4114	100										33.5
HangedMan			70920		70920	100										100
MHFallenCrusader			33548		33548	100										86
OrcRacial			3086		3086	100										12.9
DPS	13186(+/- 1289)
Total Damage	4747.12m	in 100h
Threat Per Second	7436
Generated in	36s
Template:	2_17_52_Reaping_NoEbon
Priority:	Unholy
Presence:	Blood
Sigil:	HangedMan
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation:	True

In both cases it ends up with less procs of the weapon so using a non proc weapon(which I also simmed) comes out as a slightly higher DPS(~15 in my current gear using Shadows Edge) difference. I ran some other sims just checking things like Morbidity versus Subversion, 1/2 Dirge versus other talents, Blood subspec versus Frost, but these 2 specs appear to be the way to go.

coca · 03/31/10, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by drothar

The OP seems to suggest that you should either be Frost subspec without reaping or Blood subspec with reaping, but is it not worth noting that you can drop 3 points from Ebon Plaguebringer for reaping in the Frost subspec build and maintain 2/2 Endless Winter IFF you have another Unholy DK or a Moonkin while there is no AoE where pesting EP would be necessary. This would seem to give the best of both specs at the same cost of taking 3 points out of Dark Conviction in the Blood subspec.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

If you have the second unholy DK, you can also take 2 points out of Crypt Fever to put in Subversion/Morbidity/Desecration/IUP.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Or am I missing something that makes Reaping less valuable than 3% crit with a Frost subspec?

That is an interesting idea. I always run with another Unholy DK which provides those disease and magic amp debuffs/buffs. It would be 3/17/51 with points into Subversion and Morbidity instead of the 5 wasted points into Ebon Plaguebringer and Crypt Fever. You'll still need the 1 point into Crypt Fever just for the extra disease for your own personal dps but aside from that you can technically put the points into Subversion and Morbidity. Am I missing any negative side to this idea?

rh8452 · 03/31/10, 1:01 PM

Originally Posted by seraphthrone

AMS(to simplify the matter a bit, since both rotations require 1 GCD for AMS, and must use AMS to soak enough RP to cast more than 3 DCs, they even out, so right here I consider AMS to take no GCD) has a 45 second cooldown, so it needs to provide about 170 RP.

If done correctly, when popping AMS, then use 1 DC right away before it fills the whole RP bar, AMS will indeed provide 170 RP, which is enough for the additional DCs. So this 1 additional DC can actually be cast every 20 seconds.

AMS is off GCD.

On most movement fights I'd rather use the blood rune for blood boil and have higher DC damage. There's some merit to using GoD on a tank and spank sort of boss like festergut where incoming magic damage is very predictable for timing AMS, but most ICC fights are pretty dynamic in that regard.

Etio · 03/31/10, 3:02 PM

Originally Posted by coca

That is an interesting idea. I always run with another Unholy DK which provides those disease and magic amp debuffs/buffs. It would be 3/17/51 with points into Subversion and Morbidity instead of the 5 wasted points into Ebon Plaguebringer and Crypt Fever. You'll still need the 1 point into Crypt Fever just for the extra disease for your own personal dps but aside from that you can technically put the points into Subversion and Morbidity. Am I missing any negative side to this idea?

A negative side (which has been discussed earlier in the thread) is that with an extra Ebon Plaguebringer DK it is less likely that it falls off. Extreme downtime or death can cause this, and the more DKs who bring it the more likely it will be on the boss.

Hyber · 03/31/10, 4:21 PM

Originally Posted by drothar

The OP seems to suggest that you should either be Frost subspec without reaping or Blood subspec with reaping, but is it not worth noting that you can drop 3 points from Ebon Plaguebringer for reaping in the Frost subspec build and maintain 2/2 Endless Winter IFF you have another Unholy DK or a Moonkin while there is no AoE where pesting EP would be necessary. This would seem to give the best of both specs at the same cost of taking 3 points out of Dark Conviction in the Blood subspec.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

If you have the second unholy DK, you can also take 2 points out of Crypt Fever to put in Subversion/Morbidity/Desecration/IUP.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Or am I missing something that makes Reaping less valuable than 3% crit with a Frost subspec?

I think the only thing you're missing is that the new trend in raid comps regarding DKs seems to be using 1x Unholy for Ebon Plaguebringer and stacking the rest Frost for burst AoE and high single-target damage. This also eliminates the needs for Enhancement shammies. It seems none of the Shammy DPS specs really shine right now.

Why is this happening? I think most of it has to do with Paragon's world first 25m H. LK kill, and their raid comp. People are just following their example.

Originally Posted by Etio

A negative side (which has been discussed earlier in the thread) is that with an extra Ebon Plaguebringer DK it is less likely that it falls off. Extreme downtime or death can cause this, and the more DKs who bring it the more likely it will be on the boss.

True. But as an Unholy DK I'm usually the last guy standing, right before the tanks fall. I rarely die. Unholy raid survivability is ridiculous. And this, coupled with the relative availability of similar debuffs to Plaguebringer, and the fact that guilds are phasing out Enh shammies, lends itself to stacking more frost DKs. Ultimately, it's likely there's another magic debuff on the boss. But if you lose that melee haste, and your guild isn't rocking an Enhance shammy, your raid DPS is going to take a big hit.

~H

diospadre · 03/31/10, 7:07 PM

You say that DK's do more damage than Shamans, then ask why it's happening and attribute it to Paragon?

Here's your answer: DK's do more damage than Shamans.