Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 213

svedka · 04/13/10, 4:42 AM

Originally Posted by Valtiel

- there's a solid number of chart-topping UH dks using shadowmourne and having Reaping in their sub-frost specc. It may just be SM boosting "not optimal" speccs high up, but looking at charts, it seems competitive with nonReaping builds at least.

Links to the specs or logs? The few top dps wol;s I skimmed through all did not have reaping.

Valtiel · 04/13/10, 4:55 AM

Looking at Fester HM:

Sheya: SM, Reaping
Sobieski: SM, no Reaping
Seqrlix: SM, Reaping
Hardhits: SM, Reaping, no Dirge
Rammydk: SM, no Reaping
Denzah: SM, no Reaping
Shinyah: SM, no Reaping

Most of these have Reaping in their PVP speccs, but some among the highest ones have it in their PVE ones.

svedka · 04/13/10, 5:12 AM

Originally Posted by Valtiel

Looking at Fester HM:

Sheya: SM, Reaping
Sobieski: SM, no Reaping
Seqrlix: SM, Reaping
Hardhits: SM, Reaping, no Dirge
Rammydk: SM, no Reaping
Denzah: SM, no Reaping
Shinyah: SM, no Reaping

Most of these have Reaping in their PVP speccs, but some among the highest ones have it in their PVE ones.

sheya, Seqrlix and Hardhits specs with reaping are pvp specs and glyphed; none are pve specs (speccing toughness, not taking icy talons)

Valtiel · 04/13/10, 6:47 AM

Originally Posted by svedka

sheya, Seqrlix and Hardhits specs with reaping are pvp specs and glyphed; none are pve specs (speccing toughness, not taking icy talons)

Yes, I verified that too; I was checking on my iPhone for Armories so I didn't have the frost tree displayed. Moot point is moot, sorry.

Consider · 04/13/10, 7:01 AM

Originally Posted by Valtiel

Consider, not that I want to force you to edit the OP for nothing, but a couple things:

- there's a solid number of chart-topping UH dks using shadowmourne and having Reaping in their sub-frost specc. It may just be SM boosting "not optimal" speccs high up, but looking at charts, it seems competitive with nonReaping builds at least.

- in your OP part about why to specc UH, you could edit out the bit about Blood having the higher sustained dps, because it's been proved to be false by now.

There may be a solid number of chart-topping unholy DKs using Shadowmourne and using sub-Frost with Reaping, but there are not a solid number of unholy DKs with Shadowmourne. What more is the fact that due to the stacking ICC buff, the WMO/WoL charts may as well start over new every 4 resets which further limits the pool of applicable parses. You're looking at a very limited sample size, and thus compound that with all the other various factors (such as good old RNG), and it doesn't mean a ton, if anything.

That said, it is possible Shadowmourne is enough to push Reaping over even for Frost. I rather doubt it for a variety of reasons, but I'll look into it (via more means than a couple parses!).

I have not seen any proof that Blood has lower sustained single target dps, although I would be happy to see it. Gemmed ArP in equivalent gear, the dps has been equal at the least. If you're simply looking at the top parses, it's not that easy! Once again, there's the issue of sample size - there are far more Unholy DKs than Blood DKs, and thus even if all else is equal, there will be more Unholy top parses. What more is that you can't ignore the Shadowmourne factor - a DK with Shadowmourne is going to outdps a DK without (in 95% of cases) - and when you compound that with the fact that most DKs with Shadowmourne also happen to be Unholy... yeah.

Essentially - you can't judge everything by the top parses. They have their value, don't get me wrong, but there are so many factors which go into not just an individual getting a top parse, but the trends you see in the average group of top parses.

But, like I said, I'll look into both things and happily edit the OP if I'm mistaken on either count. I'm certainly not infallible, and god knows my boredom with this game has all but certainly caused me to be less zealous with following the thread as I should and looking into the various minor details brought up. I'll be the first to admit my slacking!

Valtiel · 04/13/10, 8:14 AM

Originally Posted by Consider

Essentially - you can't judge everything by the top parses.

The Reaping thing was a major fluke on my part, I'll admit that - my iPhone failed me in spotting pvp speccs. I also doubt SM will push reaping back into the specc (strike dmg just isn't important enough to UH).

On the situation of blood, I would say it's a bit more than a few parses.
While it's true that there's a limited number of high end DKs playing Blood, it's also a sign that the specc doesn't have that much to offer anymore. Plus, looking again at Fester HM, while Blood only has a handful of SMs, the first 20 UH almost all have it.
It's interesting to notice the UH logs are overall superior to Blood logs even with SM involved (all your considerations being still valid).

If we move the benchmark a bit, we can see that the progression mostly goes like this:


Spot UH Frost Blood
1 14481 13657 13981
5 14016 13457 12806
10 13664 13291 12437
30 13057 12910 11885
50 12743 12644 11592
80 12530 12454 11295
100 12425 12359 11091

Once again, it's a partial and inaccurate tool, but I would be hard pressed arguing Blood is the top dps specc when it's losing out by 500 dps with Shadowmourne and its 50th worldwide performer is 1000 dps behind the 100th UH or Frost one. Blood players CAN'T be that bad. The skill factor can be relevant in the top parses (the very best dks wouldn't touch Blood with a pole apparently) but not over the top100.

It's been long speculated that Blood would have picked up with full Arp gear and it didn't happen; then it was said it would have scaled the most with SM (and it's not happening); in all honesty I think the prophecy will never fulfill, and now the gap is too big to simply ignore, because we're looking at something over 1k dps on most intervals of the top 100. It can't just be environmental factors.

Jhaze · 04/13/10, 8:15 AM

top parses are commonly did with "cheating".Sometimes you see top parses with strange specs,then you may think maybe it's a better spec.
Then you see the logs and you recognize unholy dk's taking hysteria or tott just to top the parses,and understand,that some talents (like subversion),have a completely different value when you have advantage of some specific external (and to be honest,not unholy related) cooldowns.

Decaying · 04/13/10, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Valtiel

It's been long speculated that Blood would have picked up with full Arp gear and it didn't happen; then it was said it would have scaled the most with SM (and it's not happening); in all honesty I think the prophecy will never fulfill, and now the gap is too big to simply ignore, because we're looking at something over 1k dps on most intervals of the top 100. It can't just be environmental factors.

I disagree - you're only pulling data from WorldofLogs (and no WMO). For Festergut 25H, I have yet to see someone top my blood parse from last week, without a ridiculous amount of Tricks of the Trade. The current top unholy parse is slightly over 14.4k - with 28% uptime on ToTT, and they also lucked out with 2 DBW strength procs (no haste procs either). The ToTT works out to a 4 to 5% increase which would bring the actual DPS to under 13.9. For comparison, my parse had no ToTT, no abnormalities (such as lucky crit rate rng), and I had 2 haste procs and only a partial crit proc from DBW, which is about as suboptimal as you can get.

Furthermore, WoL calculates the Festergut start time later than WMO by 2-3 seconds, so you have to factor that in when comparing data.

Since the first 15 or so shadowmournes were all unholy (with a few tanks mixed in), we are just now seeing Blood DK's getting the weapon so there are very few logs to look at to come to any sort of conclusion. With that said - Blood is more reliant on weapon dps and top end to put out competitive numbers (and has been since the start of WOTLK). Long story short - it's too early to come to any conclusions just yet - and analysis needs to be carefully done to account for ToTT/Hysteria whoring, and attention paid to all data sources available - not just one.

My prediction is that blood will have a minor lead in single target dps over unholy assuming similar skill/gear, with unholy vastly superior for AOE. Frost is slightly behind both for single target until 284 one handers become more commonplace. When that happens they will be on par with unholy and blood for single target. It's pretty clear frost was balanced with 284 one handers weapons being comparable to SM.

Kumaren · 04/13/10, 6:46 PM

Originally Posted by Akio

Is it possible for OP to produce a separate stat weight for subfrost/unholy spec aka 0/17/54? Because my result from sim shows a much more different EP compare to the one on the first page which remains unchange with the 3.3.3 patch, especially the value of haste, which skyrockets due to the haste from gear being multiplicative with the 20% bonus haste we gain from Icy Talon. Below is the result i get from my gear

EP AttackPower | 1 (0.7 DPS/per AP)
EP Strength | 3.26
EP Agility | 1.29
EP CritRating | 1.91
EP HasteEstimated | 2.74
EP HasteRating1 | 2.8
EP ArmorPenetrationRating | 2.46
EP ExpertiseRating | 1.69
Personal Expertise value | 0
BeforeMeleeHitCap<8% | 3.2
EP SpellHitRating | 0.34
EP WeaponDPS | 7.43
EP WeaponSpeed | 142.86
EP 2T9 | 163.24
EP 4T9 | 420.59
EP 2T10 | 229.41
EP 4T10 | 391.18
| Template | Unholy 3
| Rotation | Unholy-ReapingLess
| Presence | Blood
| Sigil | Virulence
| RuneEnchant | FallenCrusader / None
| Pet Calculation | True
lootlink non hit caped
lootlink hit caped
Non hit caped ( Pawn: v1: "DK Sim": ArmorPenetration=2.46, HitRating=3.2, CritRating=1.91, Dps=7.43, Strength=3.26, Armor=0.028, Agility=1.29, HasteRating=2.74, Speed=142.86, ExpertiseRating=1.69, Ap=1, GemQualityLevel=82 )
hit caped ( Pawn: v1: "DK Sim": ArmorPenetration=2.46, HitRating=0.34, CritRating=1.91, Dps=7.43, Strength=3.26, Armor=0.028, Agility=1.29, HasteRating=2.74, Speed=142.86, ExpertiseRating=1.69, Ap=1, GemQualityLevel=82 )

The BiS list shouldn't change too much, but I think it would be helpful to update the stat weight list, as i have been wondering for quite some time whether is it I input some wrong data or haste is just better now until someone actually explained the stacking of haste with new Icy Talon.

I would also appreciate it that someone else post their stat weight so that there can be a compare, i am still skeptical about the new value of haste, i know it's better now but i think the value in my sheet is just too good that i might have input something wrong

Does anyone else have any more info on a possible new stat weight for haste after Icy Talons change? if the actual levels for haste are anywhere near the above our orange gems would change to str/haste from str/crit theoretically for frost sub specs.

Melchior · 04/14/10, 2:48 AM

Originally Posted by Kumaren

Does anyone else have any more info on a possible new stat weight for haste after Icy Talons change? if the actual levels for haste are anywhere near the above our orange gems would change to str/haste from str/crit theoretically for frost sub specs.

I get similar results. Herkuml War Totem for example is a clear gain over Death's Choice (non-heroic).

Valtiel · 04/14/10, 3:01 AM

Originally Posted by Decaying

I disagree - you're only pulling data from WorldofLogs (and no WMO). For Festergut 25H, I have yet to see someone top my blood parse from last week, without a ridiculous amount of Tricks of the Trade. The current top unholy parse is slightly over 14.4k - with 28% uptime on ToTT, and they also lucked out with 2 DBW strength procs (no haste procs either). The ToTT works out to a 4 to 5% increase which would bring the actual DPS to under 13.9. For comparison, my parse had no ToTT, no abnormalities (such as lucky crit rate rng), and I had 2 haste procs and only a partial crit proc from DBW, which is about as suboptimal as you can get.

While your log is impressive, you need to consider you also had an extremely good critstreak on strikes and spells.

I guess time will tell, but as significant as a single log can be, I would say a 1k dps gap over the top 100 performances is a stronger marker for now. There's certainly an element of "lack of faith" towards Blood that pushes it below its maximum statistical potential (people not trusting Blood being a competitive choice, leading to less people playing blood in high end guilds, less people playing blood in HM content, less Blood DKs being tricked and so on), but I remain skeptical about the theory involving Blood being the top specc in single target.

takeitsqueezy · 04/14/10, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Melchior

I get similar results. Herkuml War Totem for example is a clear gain over Death's Choice (non-heroic).

I also get similar results. Here's a snippet of my EP for 0/17/54 with my current toon's gear.

EP AttackPower | 1 (0.8 DPS/per AP)
EP Strength | 3.1
EP Agility | 1.28
EP CritRating | 1.85
EP HasteEstimated | 2.68
EP HasteRating1 | 2.7
EP ArmorPenetrationRating | 2.25
EP ExpertiseRating | 2.18
Personal Expertise value | 0.25
BeforeMeleeHitCap<8% | 3.59
EP SpellHitRating | 0.51
EP WeaponDPS | 7.38
EP WeaponSpeed | 412.5
EP WhisperingFangedSkull | 389.87
EP HerkumlWarToken | 324.05
EP Greatness | 332.91

Haste is coming in a bit higher than crit for my gear setup. I simmed the difference between using Fierce Ametrine (10str/10haste) in place of the Inscribed Ametrine's in all of my single yellow slots (5) and here are the results:

Using Inscribed Ametrine (5):
DPS| 12077(+/- 1594)

Using Fierce Ametrine (5):
DPS| 12126(+/- 1611)

Obviously not much of a difference, the crit difference between the two setups were usually within 1% for all abilities. Like a previous poster mentioned, you will see a balancing out of abilities total % dmg from swapping crit for haste. I won't be making the switch myself as I use the same gear for another spec, but I thought I'd post what I found.

Aryee · 04/14/10, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by takeitsqueezy

I also get similar results. Here's a snippet of my EP for 0/17/54 with my current toon's gear.

EP AttackPower | 1 (0.8 DPS/per AP)
EP Strength | 3.1
EP Agility | 1.28
EP CritRating | 1.85
EP HasteEstimated | 2.68
EP HasteRating1 | 2.7
EP ArmorPenetrationRating | 2.25
EP ExpertiseRating | 2.18
Personal Expertise value | 0.25
BeforeMeleeHitCap<8% | 3.59
EP SpellHitRating | 0.51
EP WeaponDPS | 7.38
EP WeaponSpeed | 412.5
EP WhisperingFangedSkull | 389.87
EP HerkumlWarToken | 324.05
EP Greatness | 332.91

Haste is coming in a bit higher than crit for my gear setup. I simmed the difference between using Fierce Ametrine (10str/10haste) in place of the Inscribed Ametrine's in all of my single yellow slots (5) and here are the results:

Using Inscribed Ametrine (5):
DPS| 12077(+/- 1594)

Using Fierce Ametrine (5):
DPS| 12126(+/- 1611)

Obviously not much of a difference, the crit difference between the two setups were usually within 1% for all abilities. Like a previous poster mentioned, you will see a balancing out of abilities total % dmg from swapping crit for haste. I won't be making the switch myself as I use the same gear for another spec, but I thought I'd post what I found.

The biggest problem here is the affect on AoE. If you were to swap out 1% worth of crit for haste then wandering plague has 1% less chance proc. The greater the number of mobs the greater the eventual deficit.

Adraina · 04/14/10, 5:05 PM

So I was messing around on the Team Robot simulator and was curious to see how a DW unholy build would fare with the new haste changes... I have 2 heroic frost giants cleavers and ran with a 0/17/54 build (2 points in black ice, 3 in nerves of cold steel). I used the standard 2h unholy rotation that the sim has pre-loaded and was getting around 10.5-10.6k dps. The 0/17/54 2h build with either a Shadow's Edge or non-heroic Bryn'trol was giving me around 10.3k dps. Anyone see numbers like this?

Lamperouqe · 04/14/10, 8:57 PM

Originally Posted by Aryee

The biggest problem here is the affect on AoE. If you were to swap out 1% worth of crit for haste then wandering plague has 1% less chance proc. The greater the number of mobs the greater the eventual deficit.

And that applies to? Trash, Deathwhisper, Dreamwalker, Lich King P1...
Swapping from Inscribed to Fierce Ametrines won't be a big decrease on your AoE damage on those few fights that you actually Pestilence diseases on, but is a DPS boost on every single target fight for some people sporting the Frost subspec. Crit also affects DnD damage, but likewise it's rarely used outside trash.