Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 214

Agent · 04/15/10, 7:49 AM

Glad to see haste thrown into the APE discussion here. I got even crazier result since I'm using Bryntroll and haste makes it proc more often (maybe even since I'm troll and beserking interacts somehow). In fact, I'm getting Haste almost as good as haste, and I might even got it to be higher at one point. I will do some more testing, mostly about how Haste scales up relatively to Str and post my results.

EDIT: Checked scaling, STR scaling is pretty much a straight line while Haste is jumps around a bit. It seems that while sometimes Haste will result in more dps then STR, for most values STR still dominant.

Note: Since dps is my off spec, I never get to get the good items, therefore I'm running with t9 4pc and two horrible trinkets (banner and mirror). I'm guessing my result won't be much use to BiS items, but I still found them interesting enough to post.

Shareth · 04/15/10, 8:36 AM

I've got Shadowmourne yesterday and decided to test all possible specs. No matter what the 0/17/54 reapingless is the best, 0/17/54 with reaping being the closest one losing by 100 dps. Blood subspec drops dps by around 400.

After that I did some EP tests for 0/17/54 reapingless and here what I've got.

EP AttackPower | 1 (0,82 DPS/per AP)
EP Strength | 3,12
EP Agility | 1,41
EP CritRating | 2,02
EP HasteEstimated | 3,07
EP HasteRating1 | 3,27
EP ArmorPenetrationRating | 2,8
EP ExpertiseRating | 2,02
Personal Expertise value | 0
BeforeMeleeHitCap<8% | 4,02
EP SpellHitRating | 0,37
EP WeaponDPS | 7,56
EP WeaponSpeed | 365,85

Haste looks pretty crazy. Seems like everyone's tests confirm haste to be pretty awesome stat now. I'm already thinking about regeming str/crit into str/haste.

Necromir · 04/15/10, 10:29 AM

If those values are anywhere near correct it might be worth gemming either straight str for reds, straight haste for yellow. Then use a haste/stam and nightmare tear for meta (depending on meta that is).

Burz · 04/15/10, 11:34 AM

With the disease twisting idea becoming more well known, along with frost sub spec and low latency, Ive found myself having a few extra GCD's since my expertise is still at 18, whereas BIS gear is 12, so my misses are minimal. In these GCD's, I have runes come up that would allow me to do an extra SS, allow my diseases to fall off, and then reapply them with the remaining FU runes. Essentially switching to a rotation I believe would look like this after the intro:

Intro: IT - PS - SS - BS - BS - DC - DC - SS - SS - BS - BS - DC - DC

Rotation: SS - IT - PS - BS - BS - DC - DC
SS - SS- BS- BS - DC - DC

This is obviously somewhat situational in that if a miss in my latter part (ss ss bs bs) of the rotation occurs, I can simply go back to disease before SS in the beginning of the rotation, where my diseases would still fall off, either way it allows for max usage of runes.

I'm not sure if this is sim-able (and I'm by no means a professional with the sim) since its situational but I was curious if anyone else had found similar results.

Aryee · 04/15/10, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Lamperouqe

And that applies to? Trash, Deathwhisper, Dreamwalker, Lich King P1...
Swapping from Inscribed to Fierce Ametrines won't be a big decrease on your AoE damage on those few fights that you actually Pestilence diseases on, but is a DPS boost on every single target fight for some people sporting the Frost subspec. Crit also affects DnD damage, but likewise it's rarely used outside trash.

Lich King p3 is a very important fight for having wandering plague ticking as often as possible. In Lich King part 1 it is also important as gerenally you will need to have Ebon Plague up on all ghouls and shamblers to necessitate less dps being on shamblers at any point, especially in emergency situations or poor disease stacks, with wandering plague serving the purpose of helping to bring down ghouls in an indirect and controlled manner. Add control and AoE is of paramount importance in Deathwhisper, especially in heroic not to mention the huge benefit of having extra ticks of wandering plague hitting while on fights with contact issues ie Marrowgar, Deathwhisper, Rotface, Professor, Valithria, Sindragosa, Blood Princes, BQL and Lich King.

There are far more situations in ICC, especially heroic, where gemming to increase wandering plague ticks aka crit, is preferable to gemming for straight up single target output, aka haste. There just aren't enough tank and spank encounters in ICC to justify it. This applies to? Deathbringer Saurfang? Festergut?

Shimerra · 04/15/10, 3:08 PM

The only fights in the game where aoe could possibly end up being a significant part of your damage are Lady Deathwhisper, Dreamwalker, boat, and LK. Deathwhisper your aoe utility is obviously important but ultimately finishing the boss in a timely fashion is still important, but we'll assume crit is more favorable. Dreamwalker the adds should be dieing extremely quickly with relatively little opportunity to aoe, a wash at best, and even on heroic controlling the adds is fairly trivial. I don't think I really need to say why the boat even doesn't matter but adds die extremely quick and the fight itself is essentially inconsequential. As for the Lich King I am yet to experience on heroic but I can say for normal mode ghoul damage is almost entirely pointless. Your shambling tank should be killing all or most of them with the necrotic plague and even in the event this is not the case your fellow raiders should be able to compensate for any minor AoE loss you'll suffer. The val'kyr/vile spirit phases are more compelling for maintaining higher crit but it's still not a clear cut better trade off then higher haste levels. Regardless in all these cases you would probably be better served overall by respecing to place more talents in morbidity if the fight calls for it and still gemming haste then you would be by gemming crit.

Ultimately the decision comes down to whether or not the inconsequential damage on some fights combined with time off the target on others can allow crit to catch up to an extremely large difference in APE. I suspect it isn't.

Angelababy · 04/15/10, 7:59 PM

Originally Posted by Necromir

If those values are anywhere near correct it might be worth gemming either straight str for reds, straight haste for yellow. Then use a haste/stam and nightmare tear for meta (depending on meta that is).

Actually, if the values are correct, it would be [Fierce Ametrine] on red slots and [Design: Quick King's Amber] on yellow slots. (For those with a [Shadowmourne], and possibly even [Bryntroll, the Bone Arbiter])

Owt · 04/15/10, 8:59 PM

Assuming those haste values are indeed correct, and we would gem as Angelababy said... would that make proc cancelling a viable option for DKs?

I know ret gets to mainly because of how many things they have that can proc the weapon, but stacking as much haste as we're talking here, would that bring our speed down enough to make up the difference?

Lamperouqe · 04/15/10, 9:41 PM

Originally Posted by Aryee

Lich King p3 is a very important fight for having wandering plague ticking as often as possible. In Lich King part 1 it is also important as gerenally you will need to have Ebon Plague up on all ghouls and shamblers to necessitate less dps being on shamblers at any point, especially in emergency situations or poor disease stacks, with wandering plague serving the purpose of helping to bring down ghouls in an indirect and controlled manner. Add control and AoE is of paramount importance in Deathwhisper, especially in heroic not to mention the huge benefit of having extra ticks of wandering plague hitting while on fights with contact issues ie Marrowgar, Deathwhisper, Rotface, Professor, Valithria, Sindragosa, Blood Princes, BQL and Lich King.

There are far more situations in ICC, especially heroic, where gemming to increase wandering plague ticks aka crit, is preferable to gemming for straight up single target output, aka haste. There just aren't enough tank and spank encounters in ICC to justify it. This applies to? Deathbringer Saurfang? Festergut?

I do agree with you on LK p3 WP AoE damage on Vile Spirits and Val'kyrs, but p1 WP AoE damage is completely worthless (atleast on normal). With haste you bring LK down to 70% faster, kill Raging Spirits faster, kill the Val'kyr you target faster and nuke LK to 10% faster. On Deathwhisper the adds tend to die very quickly, and even faster on Dreamwalker, not leaving much time for WP ticks. On Marrowgar the spikes don't live long enough to do any damage to them as a DK, since we lack burst/burst cleave. On Rotface the goal is not to DPS oozes. On Putricide there are rarely any times I could see AoE WP ticks, maybe Putricide passing an ooze? On Sindragosa WP AoE is worthless aswell, since the goal isn't to kill the ice tombs as fast as you can. On Blood Princes the princes are usually tanked too far from each other to have any AoE WP ticks. On BQL you mean friendly fire to MC'd targets or what? And lastly on Gunship the adds die quickly aswell, but the whole encounter is quite trivial. Where is this "huge benefit" you speak of?

Seems like Simerra beat me to it and put it perfectly into words so I'd like to quote him:

Originally Posted by Shimerra

The val'kyr/vile spirit phases are more compelling for maintaining higher crit but it's still not a clear cut better trade off then higher haste levels.

Ultimately the decision comes down to whether or not the inconsequential damage on some fights combined with time off the target on others can allow crit to catch up to an extremely large difference in APE. I suspect it isn't.

For encounters like Anub'arak I would go for crit though, but there are no encounters as AoE heavy as that in ICC.

Consider · 04/15/10, 9:42 PM

Proc-cancelling for Shadowmourne, you mean? It's already worth doing, haste gemming or not.

Anyways, I'll edit the stat weights/gem sections/best in slot sections tomorrow, as I have received ample enough numbers/proof for haste winning out (although it's value isn't 3.2 like one person posted). For stat weight purposes, there will be two sets of numbers - 264 and 277 - and two of each set - one for Blood subspec and one for Frost. With ICC becoming increasingly easy due to the stacking buff combined with natural gear progression over time, not having stat weights for gear levels below 264 shouldn't affect many, and it's not like they're radically different anyways (aside from ArP, but if people don't understand ArP's scaling at this point, I don't know what to say!).

The stat weight/BiS (if anything changes) will be fixed by tomorrow.

Also worth noting that Engineering is now the best profession, even if you discount Saronite Bombs and Nitro Boosts. Factoring those two in, it flies ahead of the rest.

Owt · 04/16/10, 1:03 AM

Originally Posted by Consider

Proc-cancelling for Shadowmourne, you mean? It's already worth doing, haste gemming or not.

Oh ok, I thought someone said earlier that it wasn't worth it for us. My mistake!

[e]: Also, does that mean the EP I PM'd you actually WAS correct? :<

zagor · 04/16/10, 4:20 AM

In SM thread drALLCOM3 says it takes around 10sec to stack Shadowmourne to full for an UH DK (compared to 3-4 seconds that it takes Rets).

Some simple math that's quite possibly wrong. Using 1str->3.01ap and 1ap->0.71dps.
Strength bonus from SM while building up varies from 0 to 240 (as soon as it's 270 we have to choose to keep it or cancel), I take an average of 120.

Without cancelling STR buff we get: 10sec of 120str + 10sec of 270str + 3k proc/20sec = 195str full time + 150dps ~ 416dps + 150dps = 566dps
With cancelling: 10sec of 120str + 3k proc/10sec ~ 256dps + 300dps = 556dps

This is far from precise, but it looks to even out. Of course it depends on stat weights I used (took current 277 values) and Shadowmourne ramp-up time.
Would love to see more thoughts on this.

Consider · 04/16/10, 4:23 AM

Uh, no Owt, you were not! Those getting values >3.0 for haste are doing something wrong, regardless of what spec or gear set you're using. I can't recreate such numbers, no matter how much tweaking I do, and besides, it doesn't logically fit. That, and haste is probably the easiest stat to figure out the EP value of (if you ignore the GCD reduction aspect of it, which one can as a DK without getting results that are too off the mark), so it's simple enough to see wrong if you work out the numbers by hand.

The new stat weights, which I'll throw on the front post tomorrow when I have the time to edit the affected sections (gemming, primarily) and to format the tables so they aren't as large and unseemly:

Both tier 10 set bonuses are assumed. Unless otherwise stated the 17/0/54 numbers utilize Cryptmaker, while the 0/17/54 use Bryntroll.

Stat	17/0/54 ilvl 264	17/0/54 ilvl 277	0/17/54 ilvl 264	0/17/54 ilvl 277	0/17/54 Shadowmourne
Strength	2.94	2.96	3.11	3.10	3.11
Haste	2.06	2.13	2.75	2.87	2.97
Armor Pen	2.57	2.85	2.29	2.58	2.78
Crit	1.94	2.00	1.91	2.00	2.11
Agility	1.34	1.35	1.28	1.35	1.41
Melee Hit	3.59	3.64	3.55	3.43	3.70
Spell Hit	0.52	0.55	0.65	0.58	0.63
Expertise	1.58	1.63	1.49	1.52	1.97
Weapon DPS	7.71	7.75	6.96	7.04	7.43
Weapon Speed	32.86	40.85	28.99	32.39	35.14

Stat	17/0/54 ilvl 264	17/0/54 ilvl 277	0/17/54 ilvl 264	0/17/54 ilvl 277	0/17/54 Shadowmourne
AP	0.70 DPS	0.71 DPS	0.69 DPS	0.71 DPS	0.74 DPS
DPS	1.43 AP	1.41 AP	1.45 AP	1.41 AP	1.35 AP

Set Bonus	17/0/54 ilvl 264	17/0/54 ilvl 277	0/17/54 ilvl 264	0/17/54 ilvl 277	0/17/54 Shadowmourne
2P T7	139.38	139.71	93.94	101.47	108.45
4P T7	216.21	227.94	190.91	211.27	214.27
2P T8	94.97	95.58	98.48	101.47	102.82
4P T8	259.09	276.47	210.61	223.53	243.66
2P T9	120.59	120.73	168.18	167.65	164.79
4P T9	375.76	410.29	381.82	419.12	461.97
2P T10	336.32	358.82	218.82	232.31	232.15
4P T10	398.45	423.53	386.36	411.76	428.17

Edit As far as the BiS lists go, little changes. Both factions use Ashen Band and Winding Sheet. Alliance uses Lana'thel's Chain, Horde uses Anh'Kahar. That's all there is to it.

artad · 04/16/10, 4:33 AM

Noob first post here... so pls be forgiving with me

After the increased importance of haste, how does it apply to trinket priority list?
Is it worthy to test [Herkuml War Token]?

thx

Etio · 04/16/10, 4:45 AM

A major change I have noticed is that the new haste favored stat weights will almost certainly make Chaotic Skyflare Diamond our best meta for nearly any gear set. This is due to the fact that we have a yellow gem that ranks so closely to our best stat (Strength). A yellow socket now is almost always taken, and wont be considered a liability when taking a blue socket for the socket bonus.