That's imo a bad way of deciding which trinket to use, almost all fights in ICC require some movement, and a lot of time if your trinket procced when you have to move, the proc is as good as wasted, in fights where there's no movement...well the stack of HWT won't fall off anw.

And most of the time on a random fight you will be moving while proc trinkets are on cooldown, effectively increasing their uptime while you are actually in melee range dealing damage.

EP AttackPower | 1 (0.74 DPS/per AP)
EP Strength | 3.19
EP Agility | 1.41
EP CritRating | 2.05
EP HasteEstimated | 3.11
EP HasteRating1 | 3.22
EP ArmorPenetrationRating | 2.95
EP ExpertiseRating | 1.89
Personal Expertise value | 0
BeforeMeleeHitCap<8% | 3.57
EP SpellHitRating | 0.4
EP WeaponDPS | 7.84
EP WeaponSpeed | 256.76
EP 2T9 | 168.06
EP 4T9 | 418.06
EP 2T10 | 244.44
EP 4T10 | 422.22



After running kahorie's sim I'm getting that which makes haste better than str with a 0/17/54 spec. I had to go in there and change the default 0/17/54 talents to change it from 2/3 morbidity to 0/3 morbidity and 5/5 necrosis. But anyway am I seeing that correctly that haste is overtaking str? Or am I doing something wrong in that sim. Going to be quite annoyed if I have go back and change my gems to haste and get lower dps and have to regem it back to str =/. But anyway anyone else having these similiar results?

Isn't Haste's value increased by stats such as Armor Pen and Strength? I think the arguement is between the value of Haste vs. Crit, not Strength. I would try removing the sum of Strength that you have gemmed currently and find stat weights based off of the Strength/ArPen levels provided by your gear alone if you want to see if gemming pure Haste would be a dps increase (which I don't think would be the case) over gemming Strength/Haste.

You're looking at it in an odd manner.

Anhkahar socketed red has 20 strength, 60 hit and 68 crit over Lanathel. Lanathel socketed orange has 14 strength, 10 hit, 73 ArP and 52 expertise over Ankahar. If you cancel out the redundencies and then assume that a person using Lanathel simply replaces the appropriate number of Fierce gems with Etched gems, it comes out to 50 haste, 68 crit, and 6 strength compared to 73 ArP and 52 expertise.

Using the SM stat weights that's 50 (2.97) + 68 (2.11) + 6(3.11) = 310.64 verse 73 (2.87) + 52 (1.97) = 311.95.

Lanathel barely edges out, but it does win, even as an Engineer. You really could use either though. 1 AP isn't even 1 Dps. I would personally prefer Lanathel for the added expertise, myself.

As far as haste being above strength, no numbers I ran - even with absolute BiS/orc racials/ideal professions/etc - could get haste over str. The gap became incredibly small, sure, but none showed it going over, no matter how much tweaking I did. Even if I did mess up, which I doubt, and you're numbers are correct, which I also doubt, and you ignore the multi-target aspects it still wouldn't be worth gemming all haste due to the mentioned scaling issues. EP simulations add the stat to calculate the value. It doesn't subtract it. So, yes, 100 extra strength might not be quite as strong as 100 extra haste, if you're numbers are to be believed. But trading 100 of your current strength for 100 of your current haste isn't the same thing, and the strength is going to be more valuable due to how it impacts every other stat.

That's a large part of the reason why one can only get so specific with EP numbers. Aside from the obvious fact that it's impossible to account for every single factor (many of which may vary from person to person, raid to raid, and so forth), it's also impossible to get one single value (even if you could account for all those previous values) and be able to apply it equally in every situation. Trading stats simply isn't the same as gaining stats.

This is especially problematic when trying to determine a BiS set. You need stat weights in the BiS set to generate a BiS set, but to generate those stat weights you need to already know the BiS set. It's completely circular. In the end, you have to make certain assumptions, and then just accept that things might not be 100% accurate, but the difference (if there is any) between that and reality is incredibly small, and that it's the best you can come up with, so you'll run with it.

I could go on and on - and probably have more than I should, so I'll be quick - but it's one of those things which is very important to understand if you are trying to min-max; you can try you best to do so, but you can never entirely do it (not with being able to prove that you've entirely optimized your gear/gems/etc). Those necks are a perfect example; when two items are a 1 AP difference there are so many assumptions along the line which could push one or the other on top. In the end, simply accept that it honestly doesn't make any difference which is better, that you're never going to know which is completely better, and that likely there isn't one which is better than the other in every situation.

It's the reason why the threads here on EJ are never-ending, even when you ignore patch changes and the like.

Anyways, rambling aside, when in doubt run two simulations, changing nothing but the gemming or the item in question. It's one's best bet in such cases - be it when comparing those two necks or comparing those two gemming methods.

Going slightly offtopic and back to that old discussion of blood vs UH single target, Decaying reported a very impressive Festergut kill this week as Blood 2h with SM (having slightly inferior gear to most of the top UH reports).

Now, I understand it's a bit offtopic, but did you run any simulations of SM UH 2h vs SM Blood 2h? I did so, but I don't trust my data (as Blood comes out with a too big lead compared to nonSM data, and more importantly, to the statistical evidence of the last months).
As a reference, I've got UH 2h BiS simming between 14.5 and 14.9, and Blood 2h shooting upwards of 15.6k.

Something seems off about that Expertise value for sub-spec Frost. Considering how important our white/bcb/necrosis damage is, I would think the value of Expertise would be higher than 1.5. Losing a melee/bcb swing to a parry or dodge is damage we simply lose, unlike a parried/dodged Scourge/Blood Strike which we can simply recast. The recent simulator update showed that Haste should be valued much higher than it was before...Im wondering if the same thing is happening to Expertise (ie, its being valued too low).

Seems like a bug similar to what we saw with some of the tier 9 set bonuses, I haven't seen any official responses to it though. There's not a huge number of people with SM out there, so it's probably worth trying to draw some attention to it on the official boards.

So, this afternoon I was bored and decided to run a few sims seeing if Herkuml War Token was indeed an upgrade, or just a waste of badges. I soon discovered that on your average non-movement fight, it's a waste of badges. Here's the proof:

Your average fight is less than 5 minutes nowadays, so I used the value .0833333333333 for the amount of time, which is 5 minutes.

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances			Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
MainHand	854988	20.3	142	8636.2	54	36.7	4799.7	45	30.6	9994.9	5	3.4	43	29.3	3396.1
ScourgeStrike	449461	10.7	52	8643.5	30	57.7	5504	22	42.3	12924.5
DeathCoil	395456	9.4	51	7754	31	60.8	5537.2	20	39.2	11190.1
Ghoul	368815	8.8	302	1691.8	184	60.9	1190	34	11.3	2355.6			84	27.8	830.6
BloodStrike	321529	7.6	69	4659.8	40	55.6	3254.6	29	40.3	6598.1	3	4.2
FrostFever	286439	6.8	107	2677	107	100	2677									115.9
ScourgeStrikeMagical	248648	5.9	52	4781.7	30	57.7	3042.9	22	42.3	7152.7
BloodPlague	240231	5.7	107	2245.1	107	100	2245.1									116.5
Gargoyle	205564	4.9	35	5873.3	32	91.4	5423.7	3	8.6	10669
Necrosis	166114	3.9	142	1169.8	142	100
Ghoul: Claw	139698	3.3	75	1862.6	65	86.7	1767.3	10	13.3	2482.2
BloodCakedBlade	137493	3.3	42	3273.6	42	100	3273.6
WanderingPlague	131188	3.1	55	2385.2	55	100
IcyTouch	96995	2.3	18	5388.6	9	50	3535.4	9	50	7241.8
PlagueStrike	85530	2	18	4751.7	13	72.2	3477.5	5	27.8	8064.8
Army of the Dead	44501	1.1	231	192.6	190	82.3	192	41	17.7	195.7
UnholyBlight	39537	.9	51	775.2	51	100
DPS	12022
Total Damage	4.21m	in 0.0833333333333333h
Total runic power used: 2160 (0 wasted)
Threat Per Second	8261
Generated in	0s
Template:	Unholy 00-17-54
Rotation:	Unholy-ReapingLess
Presence:	Blood
Sigil:	Virulence
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation:	True

^The above is Darkmoon Card: Greatness over a 5 minute period.

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances			Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
MainHand	868745	20.7	148	8601.4	55	35.5	4761.3	46	29.7	9806.3	7	4.5	47	30.3	3314.5
ScourgeStrike	445875	10.6	52	8574.5	30	57.7	5443.2	22	42.3	12844.5
DeathCoil	386922	9.2	51	7586.7	31	60.8	5443.1	20	39.2	10909.3
Ghoul	374912	8.9	321	1630.1	194	60.4	1141.9	36	11.2	2254.1			91	28.3	793.7
BloodStrike	317799	7.6	69	4605.8	40	55.6	3230.9	29	40.3	6502.2	3	4.2
FrostFever	281871	6.7	107	2634.3	107	100	2634.3									115.8
ScourgeStrikeMagical	246671	5.9	52	4743.7	30	57.7	3009.6	22	42.3	7108.3
BloodPlague	237658	5.7	107	2221.1	107	100	2221.1									99.4
Gargoyle	201890	4.8	37	5456.5	34	91.9	5057	3	8.1	9984
Necrosis	168777	4	148	1140.4	148	100
BloodCakedBlade	142854	3.4	44	3246.7	44	100	3246.7
Ghoul: Claw	134215	3.2	75	1789.5	65	86.7	1705.6	10	13.3	2335.4
WanderingPlague	129415	3.1	55	2353	55	100
IcyTouch	95423	2.3	18	5301.3	9	50	3473.3	9	50	7129.2
PlagueStrike	86933	2.1	19	4575.4	14	73.7	3419.6	5	26.3	7811.8
Army of the Dead	46354	1.1	247	187.7	207	83.8	194.2	40	16.2	153.9
UnholyBlight	38700	.9	51	758.8	51	100
DPS	11992
Total Damage	4.21m	in 0.0833333333333333h
Total runic power used: 2160 (0 wasted)
Threat Per Second	8229
Generated in	0s
Template:	Unholy 00-17-54
Rotation:	Unholy-ReapingLess
Presence:	Blood
Sigil:	Virulence
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation:	True

^This is Herkuml War Token over a 5 minute fight.

I continued testing, and figured out that you would have to use the Herkuml War Token for approx. 6 minutes without the stacks falling off for it to be a DPS upgrade, even on a stand-still fight. While it's a small difference (30 dps) I thought I would share it.

If you see that I'm wrong, please point it out.

Edited for Necrosis.

Not sure about the others but are you sure you have 5/5 Necrosis in your testing build Baldless? The damage done by it in your sim is way too low.

I compared two of my Lich King HM progress logs. One evening I used automatic Chaos Bane cancelling, the evening before I used Shadowmourne normally. I got almost twice as much procs (1% dmg vs. 1,9% dmg). The overall damage itself is quite meaningless, since I had to spec into Desecration. My assumption of a 10s ramp-up time seems to be correct and that makes proc-cancelling not really worth it.