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04/19/10, 5:41 PM
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#3241
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King Hippo
Pandaren Hunter
Windrunner
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
I compared two of my Lich King HM progress logs. One evening I used automatic Chaos Bane cancelling, the evening before I used Shadowmourne normally. I got almost twice as much procs (1% dmg vs. 1,9% dmg). The overall damage itself is quite meaningless, since I had to spec into Desecration. My assumption of a 10s ramp-up time seems to be correct and that makes proc-cancelling not really worth it.
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This correlates with my own testing (using an addon to automatically cancel to minimize swings that don't gain fragments) -- yes, you get around 2x as many procs, but you go from an average of 189 strength (50% uptime of 270, 5% uptime of 0, 30, 60, 90, ..., 240) to 108 strength (5% uptime of 0, 30, 60, 90, ... 240). 81str is worth maybe 190dps or so. With cancelling, you get a proc every 10s (or 200 dps) vs without it you get a proc every 20s (or 100 dps). Doubling proc rate gains 100dps but loses ~190dps from strength for a net loss of 90dps. simcraft (hacked to autocancel the buff after 0.1s) agrees with roughly an 80dps loss for myself.
Proc cancelling isn't worth it for death knights. Paladins who can stack much quicker are a different story, of course. For us, it is better to treat the proc as gaining strength than a Tiny Shadowmourne in a Bottle.
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04/20/10, 5:12 AM
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#3242
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Glass Joe
Draenei Death Knight
Lightbringer
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Originally Posted by Lamperouqe
On Blood Princes the princes are usually tanked too far from each other to have any AoE WP ticks. On BQL you mean friendly fire to MC'd targets or what? And lastly on Gunship the adds die quickly aswell, but the whole encounter is quite trivial. Where is this "huge benefit" you speak of?
Seems like Simerra beat me to it and put it perfectly into words so I'd like to quote him:
For encounters like Anub'arak I would go for crit though, but there are no encounters as AoE heavy as that in ICC.
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Wandering plague is not solely AoE, these ticks also apply to the original target as well as other targets in the vicinity. This is the main part of my argument and had nothing to do with AoE. Having extra ticks on targets when you're out of contact is the main benefit of wandering plague, and hence crit, on single target fights. So the point of WP ticks on MC'd targets in BQL is merely facetious.
BQL has ~40 seconds minimum during the encounter where Melee are not able to damage the boss due to the 2 flight phases, longer if you gain Swarming Shadows or Pact of the Darkfallen. This is a minimum of 2 full rotations where no damage output is possible besides dots and spells, ie DC, IT and diseases. Assuming you're sitting at around 40% base crit raid buffed, you can expect to be getting 40% extra damage out of diseases due to wandering plague ticks.
This is similar for many all of the fights in ICC. Sindragosa has an air phase, you have to run back and forth constantly in Deathwhisper, PP has large tracks of sporadic target contact and target switching where diseases will be on 2 targets etc. While haste will undoubtedly provide a greater amount of damage while on the boss, crit still provides damage while in contact AND out of contact. It will take some numbers from encounters to sell the net gain of damage from haste in practical terms for ICC encounters.
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04/20/10, 5:36 AM
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#3243
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LF sun
Blood Elf Death Knight
Anub'arak (EU)
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Originally Posted by Aryee
This is similar for many all of the fights in ICC. Sindragosa has an air phase, you have to run back and forth constantly in Deathwhisper, PP has large tracks of sporadic target contact and target switching where diseases will be on 2 targets etc. While haste will undoubtedly provide a greater amount of damage while on the boss, crit still provides damage while in contact AND out of contact. It will take some numbers from encounters to sell the net gain of damage from haste in practical terms for ICC encounters.
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There are just as many encounters where your pet stays on the boss all the time, while you have to move out and back in. The value of haste on those increases significantly, especially when compared to crit. This is why it's difficult to assess stat weights outside of the perfect tank & spank fight, because you can construct a case for pretty much any stat.
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Originally Posted by Frozn
You can be sure that I will never post something anymore. Your arrogance and snobism makes me feel sick, enjoy your idiot infractions. Your community just lost one of the best moonkin of the alliance (gearscore).
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04/21/10, 12:55 AM
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#3244
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Death Knight
Illidan
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Originally Posted by arison
With cancelling, you get a proc every 10s (or 200 dps) vs without it you get a proc every 20s (or 100 dps).
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This is the problem statement, proc hits much harder than 2k on average. As a matter of fact looking at my festergut logs from last week (when i didn't get tricks) it hit for 3.3k on average which is consistent with the assumption of it scaling with most of our passive damage multipliers/debuffs.
My own spreadsheet shows proc canceling providing me with a tiny boost of ~15 dps on a tank-and-spank fight. Any haste effects though increase the dps gain (lust, engineering gloves, haste pot, etc). Depending on the duration of the fight (and hence uptime on said buffs), amount of movement or aoe (which favors keeping the proc for more spell damage), etc it may or may not be worth it to cancel the proc. I macro'd cancelaura together with melee strikes (and pestilence) to get the uptime of chaos bane up for aoe or out of melee range situations while still canceling the buff fast "enough" for pure tank and spanks.
On a side note, and I dunno if this has already been mentioned, but a great way to compare items with hit to items without it is to set the EP value of hit to be the same as haste when comparing 2 items. That way you can quickly tell whether it's worth it to get an item with hit or swap out some str/haste for str/hit gems. The main problem with this approach is you can "run out of yellow slots" which you can use to gain hit from gems. Still, it's easy to see which items are the "best" choice for hit (t10 gloves, ashen verdict rep ring, and polar bear bracers with LDW's necklace and garrosh's rage trailing behind).
Last edited by resky : 04/21/10 at 1:00 AM.
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04/21/10, 3:24 AM
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#3245
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King Hippo
Pandaren Hunter
Windrunner
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Originally Posted by resky
This is the problem statement, proc hits much harder than 2k on average. As a matter of fact looking at my festergut logs from last week (when i didn't get tricks) it hit for 3.3k on average which is consistent with the assumption of it scaling with most of our passive damage multipliers/debuffs.
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Logs would show higher damage because of the 10% ICC buff; that scales the damage higher, but of course it scales the effect of strength, too.
Good point on the actual damage; however, I think the result still holds. Chaos Bane should be affected by Blood Presence, Ebon Plague, and Black Ice based on how other procs work. This goes to an average of 3150. However, don't forget partial resists bring this down by, I believe, 6% on average. So we're down just under 3k per proc. Even at this number, it's extremely close, but definitely a loss on anything that has any secondary target at all, or time you can't be on the boss but your diseases tick and pet can be, etc.
So the average strength, without cancelling, is 189str, which is 434dps, and a proc every 20s for 150 more dps -- a total of 584dps. With cancelling, the average strength is 108str or 248dps, plus the doubled proc of 300dps -- 548dps. Still lower, but as you correctly point out, closer. This average rate would speed up during heroism, but so would white attacks and other str-benefiting abilities. It still doesn't look to be worth it. To get to 584dps, you'd need 336dps from the proc itself which is a proc every 8-9s.
Even if it's close, or even slightly ahead, it just seems like a loss; str is so good and scales the rest of our stats that the static proc isn't the really nice part anyway. The really tricky part could be trying to get the best of both worlds (disease with chaos bane up then cancel it to build more stacks etc). But given mobility, multiple target fights, etc, I just don't envision it coming out ahead.
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04/21/10, 1:01 PM
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#3246
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Von Kaiser
Troll Death Knight
Stormreaver (EU)
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Originally Posted by Aryee
Wandering plague is not solely AoE, these ticks also apply to the original target as well as other targets in the vicinity. This is the main part of my argument and had nothing to do with AoE. Having extra ticks on targets when you're out of contact is the main benefit of wandering plague, and hence crit, on single target fights. So the point of WP ticks on MC'd targets in BQL is merely facetious.
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Ah, I wasn't thinking about single target WP damage when we can't be on the boss, so the WP ticks on MC'd targets was a bad joke. I see your point now, but as it was mentioned by Amroo, in most of those situations your pet will be staying on the boss which increases the value of haste aswell. I can think of only Sindragosa and BQL where my pet cannot hit the boss while my diseases keep on ticking.
Originally Posted by Aryee
BQL has ~40 seconds minimum during the encounter where Melee are not able to damage the boss due to the 2 flight phases, longer if you gain Swarming Shadows or Pact of the Darkfallen. This is a minimum of 2 full rotations where no damage output is possible besides dots and spells, ie DC, IT and diseases. Assuming you're sitting at around 40% base crit raid buffed, you can expect to be getting 40% extra damage out of diseases due to wandering plague ticks.
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But why gear for situations where you can't hit the boss, when for the majority of time you can? The difference in EAP of haste and crit is so significant that I don't see crit overcoming haste just because you leave your diseases ticking on a target, especially when your ghoul will be affected by haste and is able to stay on the target in most situations aswell.
For crit to win on those type of fights the additional WP ticks gained from crit when you can't be on the boss would need to overcome the damage gained from haste over crit when hitting the boss which I don't see happening, since the time spent hitting the boss is a lot more than being away from the boss in most cases. Now to add the increased ghoul damage from haste when not hitting the boss on fights that your ghoul can stay on the boss, I don't see crit winning out.
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04/21/10, 5:37 PM
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#3247
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Death Knight
Blade's Edge (EU)
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I may be stupid question, but has anyone observed the relation between the value of expertise and latency? I am currently playing with very high (300+ ms) latency with sub-frost, so I don't have that much free gcd so I keep myself slightly below exp cap.
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04/21/10, 11:28 PM
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#3248
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Glass Joe
Gnome Death Knight
Madoran
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Question. On the BiS "All currently known loot, sans 25m heroic loot and Shadowmourne" table. Wouldn't the HWT be the best trinket along with DBW? Cause it moved ahead of DV in the BiS Trinkets so why not BiS Gear also.
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04/21/10, 11:54 PM
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#3249
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Glass Joe
Undead Death Knight
Daggerspine
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simulator comparison
Has anyone done any testing between the Team Robot Simulator and Kahorie's Simulator? At least as far as it's utility to test potential upgrades?
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04/22/10, 12:54 AM
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#3250
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Glass Joe
Human Death Knight
Sargeras
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edit: changed my mind
Last edited by Kaeori : 04/22/10 at 12:57 AM.
Reason: changed my mind
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04/22/10, 1:12 AM
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#3251
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Von Kaiser
Human Death Knight
Cenarion Circle
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Heroic DV is better than HWT. Maybe you're looking at normal DV.
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04/22/10, 2:58 AM
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#3252
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Banned
Human Death Knight
Thunderlord
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Should I Macro Runestrike to EVERY ability? Or just IT-PS-BS-SS?
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04/22/10, 3:51 AM
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#3253
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Don Flamenco
Blood Elf Death Knight
Darksorrow (EU)
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Originally Posted by Ercyy
Should I Macro Runestrike to EVERY ability? Or just IT-PS-BS-SS?
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It's an on-next-strike ability, as a dpser you can just bind it to a comfortable key (I got it on F) - you have time till your next swing to activate it anyways, and even if you miss a swing, it's unlikely you're losing out on proccs.
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12 weeks without a Sigil of the Vengeful Heart drop and counting.
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04/22/10, 6:55 AM
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#3254
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Glass Joe
Worgen Death Knight
Auchindoun (EU)
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Hello i have a few questions that i couldn't find answers.
1. Is is worth making macro for every spell and add /cast claw at the end due the slow auto-cast (sometimes it cast claw on 60-70 energy). Something like this:
#showtooltip Death Coil
/cast Death Coil
/cast Claw
2. Is there any haste cap on Gargoyle spell attacks (i mean should i use Potion of Speed when i have Heroism buff ? 30% haste from Hero + 500haste from the potion) or there some kind of cap.
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04/22/10, 7:11 AM
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#3255
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Don Flamenco
Draenei Death Knight
Chants Eternels (EU)
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Originally Posted by elive
2. Is there any haste cap on Gargoyle spell attacks (i mean should i use Potion of Speed when i have Heroism buff ? 30% haste from Hero + 500haste from the potion) or there some kind of cap.
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Gargoyle don't have haste cap. Here is an extract of Arison's testing from last month.
3/27 19:59:20.992 SPELL_DAMAGE,0xF130006CB5086898,"Ebon Gargoyle",0x12111,0xF1300079AA0029CE,"Heroic Training Dummy",0xa28,51963,"Gargoyle Strike",0x8,3065,0,8,341,0,0,nil,nil,nil
3/27 19:59:21.799 SPELL_DAMAGE,0xF130006CB5086898,"Ebon Gargoyle",0x12111,0xF1300079AA0029CE,"Heroic Training Dummy",0xa28,51963,"Gargoyle Strike",0x8,3392,0,8,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
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