Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 219

Rokkarberg · 04/23/10, 5:31 PM

Originally Posted by Karashote

I think what he means is that the max duration starts off at 3 seconds. I have been having the same issues, but have learned to adapt. Might have to stop attacking until 3 seconds left on your debuff is all.

Yes this is exactly what I meant, the damage isn't what's cutting the duration. As soon as you hit the ability the buff timer is 3 seconds instead of 5 like it normally is.

I'll give using AMS on the blistering cold a whirl on our next night of attempts. I was worried that the damage would be too high on hard mode.

Amroo · 04/23/10, 6:33 PM

Originally Posted by Zinfadel

Unsynch blood runes
Priority: Diseases>Desolation>SS>Death Coil>Blood Strike (Though adding desolation is irrelevent, as you'll always have an empty GCD to BS in time anyway)
ICC character sheet that comes w/ the DL
Intro to get Desolation started.

I've played around w/ various settings like when to bone shield and the intro rotation..all my sims have the above priority ahead by atleast 10 dps instead of doing a standard rotation...my last comparison by 21 dps.

Playing this out in game, you'll often delay a BS for a death coil, and use that BS to fill an empty GCD.

I've quadroopled checked a lot of my settings and everything seems solid, so hopefully I don't just embarass myself ~. Thought I'd share.

Technically DC is not above BS in priority (except for the last few seconds of a fight as it is harder hitting), only if you would cap on RP between now and the next time you would face that choice again. This is simply due to the fact that uncapped runic power is a time-invariant resource, while runes are not. However, I doubt simulators are capable of simulating this, but its relatively easy to be performed by a player after some practice. The difference between a priority system and a rotation if there is no external rune power source is relatively small, but increases if you have access to those.

Zinfadel · 04/23/10, 7:03 PM

You can actually see, through the simulation, you get quite a bit more Death Coils in by using a priority, though quite a bit less blood strikes. As you pointed out, Death Coil hits harder, so you get a dps increase.

I guess the differance is, by using a priority where DC is ahead of BS, you're only going to delay your blood strikes. Where as you were to fire one off just as you cap RP in a rotation, you could delay an SS. If you then wait until you delay a BS to fire one off, then you're wasting RP.

It just seems to me, w/out reaping, it's always better to use BS to fill empty GCDs, as you're either firing off a DC, SS, or refresing diseases. Desolation doesn't become an issue either, cuz you almost always have a free GCD to fill w/ a BS.

Also, I got a few more SS's off of using the priority, in the posted sims.

Amroo · 04/23/10, 8:53 PM

No, the assumption is that in the long run you are not GCD-constrained (which is the case for Unholy unless you have huge external RP sources). Let's assume the following situation:

You just put both FU sets and one blood rune for desolation on cooldown and sit there with 120 RP and 1 blood rune.

If you prioritize DC over BS the following happens:
You cast 3 DC, your FU sets are ready again, so you cast 2 SS (yielding 40 RP), then you cast another DC and the two BS. You still have one GCD left before your FU sets are off cooldown again, you don't have enough RP for a DC, so you can't do anything.

Now, if you prioritize BS over DC unless you cap your RP before you face that choice (BS vs. DC) again:
You cast BS (130 RP), 2 DC (50 RP), 2 SS (90 RP), 2 BS (110 RP), 2 DC (30 RP). You filled every cooldown with a damage dealing ability, cast the same number of SS and DC, but 1 BS more and you are subsequently left off with 10 more RP.

This is something Ret paladins have as far as I know been dealing with for quite a while: priority not only depends on the damage an ability deals, but also on the cooldown it incurs. In our case only runes incur cooldowns, while unless RP caps there is no difference to casting a DC now or in 10 seconds.

Zinfadel · 04/24/10, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Amroo

No, the assumption is that in the long run you are not GCD-constrained (which is the case for Unholy unless you have huge external RP sources). Let's assume the following situation:

You just put both FU sets and one blood rune for desolation on cooldown and sit there with 120 RP and 1 blood rune.

If you prioritize DC over BS the following happens:
You cast 3 DC, your FU sets are ready again, so you cast 2 SS (yielding 40 RP), then you cast another DC and the two BS. You still have one GCD left before your FU sets are off cooldown again, you don't have enough RP for a DC, so you can't do anything.

Now, if you prioritize BS over DC unless you cap your RP before you face that choice (BS vs. DC) again:
You cast BS (130 RP), 2 DC (50 RP), 2 SS (90 RP), 2 BS (110 RP), 2 DC (30 RP). You filled every cooldown with a damage dealing ability, cast the same number of SS and DC, but 1 BS more and you are subsequently left off with 10 more RP.

This is something Ret paladins have as far as I know been dealing with for quite a while: priority not only depends on the damage an ability deals, but also on the cooldown it incurs. In our case only runes incur cooldowns, while unless RP caps there is no difference to casting a DC now or in 10 seconds.

You always have to fill GCDs w/ HoW or blood tap/bone shield.

Also, you probably won't be expertise capped if you follow stat weights. If you get dodged in the middle of that rotation, it seems like it'd be better to get in your last DCs and chase that blood rune for the missed BS to the next string. You'd also still gain 5 RP if you missed on a SS or PS.

Also, RP generation isn't random. I would think most simulations would be more accurate when it comes to RP generation and at least the amount of each ability you're able to fire off.

Amroo · 04/24/10, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Zinfadel

You always have to fill GCDs w/ HoW or blood tap/bone shield.

Also, you probably won't be expertise capped if you follow stat weights. If you get dodged in the middle of that rotation, it seems like it'd be better to get in your last DCs and chase that blood rune for the missed BS to the next string. You'd also still gain 5 RP if you missed on a SS or PS.

Also, RP generation isn't random. I would think most simulations would be more accurate when it comes to RP generation and at least the amount of each ability you're able to fire off.

This doesn't change the point, though. It would be plain inefficient to always prioritize DC over BS. The only reason to cast DC instead of BS and thereby delay your blood rune cooldown, virtually wasting a percentage of your rune dps, is if not doing so would cause you to overcap RP in the future. There is nothing fancy to that, it's completely sensible.
As stated, the exception to this are the last ten seconds of the fight, as all resources become time-constrained and the only thing that counts is how much damage ability X deals.

Ela · 04/26/10, 5:15 AM

I remember a couple of weeks ago some people reported getting a slight dps increase for 1-17-53 using kahorie's.

I tried simming and turned out that way for me too.

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances			Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
Melee	2938079839	22	460075	8582,4	171072	36,2	4849,9	171265	36,2	9978,6	12460	2,6	117738	24,9	3392,4
ScourgeStrike	2200458148	16,5	158553	13878,4	87108	54,2	8567	71445	44,5	20354,2	2128	1,3
Ghoul	1818060237	13,6	846132	3233,7	470587	55,6	2519	91635	10,8	4477,4			283910	33,6	783,3
DeathCoil	1026398671	7,7	139843	7339,6	88231	62,5	5280	51612	36,6	10860,6	1304	,9
BloodStrike	973225466	7,3	210697	4619,1	127879	59,1	3262,1	82818	38,3	6714,3	5815	2,7
FrostFever	831159996	6,2	328986	2526,4	328986	100	2526,4									98,1
BloodPlague	698623963	5,2	330301	2115,1	330301	100	2115,1									98,6
Gargoyle	659283545	4,9	123722	5328,7	107788	86,3	4721	15934	12,8	9440,1	1151	,9
Necrosis	570865954	4,3	460075	1240,8	460075	100
BloodCakedBlade	445700617	3,3	134640	3310,3	134640	97,3	3310,3				3740	2,7
WanderingPlague	410874736	3,1	177840	2310,4	177840	99,1					1559	,9
PlagueStrike	300706830	2,3	54559	5511,6	31463	56,1	3483,6	23096	41,2	8274,3	1480	2,6
IcyTouch	253104502	1,9	54182	4671,4	34129	62,4	3357,8	20053	36,7	6907,1	485	,9
Army of the Dead	135477715	1	841522	161	733692	87,2	158,7	107830	12,8	176,8
UnholyBlight	102643970	,8	139843	734	139843	100
DPS	12375(+/- 1773)
Total Damage	13364,66m	in 300h
Total runic power used: 6016200 (0 wasted)
Threat Per Second	7350
Generated in	96s
Template:	Unholy 1 - 17 - 53
Rotation:	Unholy-ReapingLess
Presence:	Blood
Sigil:	HangedMan
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation:	True

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances			Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
Melee	2931762638	22	459305	8577,9	170856	36,2	4847	170926	36,2	9974,7	12445	2,6	117523	24,9	3392,4
ScourgeStrike	2120679345	15,9	156875	13518,3	90886	57,2	8562,3	65989	41,5	20344,1	2108	1,3
Ghoul	1814873211	13,6	844632	3233,3	469834	55,6	2518,9	91475	10,8	4476,6			283323	33,5	783,3
DeathCoil	1101977172	8,3	150019	7345,6	94597	62,5	5282,6	55422	36,6	10866,7	1387	,9
BloodStrike	940198350	7,1	208154	4516,8	132567	62	3262,8	75587	35,3	6716,2	5744	2,7
FrostFever	833213722	6,3	330625	2520,1	330625	100	2520,1									97,8
BloodPlague	701228416	5,3	332214	2110,8	332214	100	2110,8									98,3
Gargoyle	659806163	5	123783	5330,3	107842	86,3	4722,6	15941	12,8	9441,5	1152	,9
Necrosis	569639426	4,3	459305	1240,2	459305	100
BloodCakedBlade	444193056	3,3	134427	3304,3	134427	97,3	3304,3				3734	2,7
WanderingPlague	411088622	3,1	178302	2305,6	178302	99,1					1562	,9
PlagueStrike	293603002	2,2	53272	5511,4	30691	56,1	3479,9	22581	41,3	8272,5	1443	2,6
IcyTouch	246558496	1,9	52883	4662,3	33366	62,5	3353,8	19517	36,6	6899,4	471	,9
Army of the Dead	135530604	1	841546	161	733568	87,2	158,7	107978	12,8	177
UnholyBlight	110202441	,8	150019	734,6	150019	100
DPS	12328(+/- 1883)
Total Damage	13314,55m	in 300h
Total runic power used: 6426560 (0 wasted)
Threat Per Second	7984
Generated in	95s
Template:	Unholy 00-17-54
Rotation:	Unholy-ReapingLess
Presence:	Blood
Sigil:	HangedMan
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation:	True

Anyone else got similar results?

Amroo · 04/26/10, 6:35 AM

You used the wrong sigil in your sims, although correcting this would probably put 1-17-53 more ahead. Also, while the increase in number of Blood Strikes might be sensible (although it would imply being GCD constrained with 0-17-54), the increase in number of Scourge Strikes is not, as SS is ahead of DC in priority anyways.
Overall the difference is too small in this sim to really worry about it, especially since Dirge will pull catch up to Subversion once you leave the static tank & spank environment (as DC can be used on range). Also, the DPS spread for 0-17-54 is larger, so the maximum simulated in any of the fights was higher for 0-17-54. I don't exactly know what the number reported in the DPS field is (average, median, mode, something totally different?), but depending on the probabilities assigned to these top values, 0-17-54 might even be better.

Edit: I just redid the calculations with my gear. There are actually two interesting results. I used two different specs (0-17-54 with 5/5 Necrosis, 2/2 Dirge and 1-17-53 with 1/2 Dirge as Dirge is the weakest talent). I also used two different priority sets, one is Diseases > Desolation > SS > DCcap > BS > DC (Priority A) and one is Diseases > Desolation > SS > DCcap > DC > BS (Priority B) because of the discussion earlier about whether to always prioritize DC.

0-17-54 Priority A

DPS	12950(+/- 1819)
Total Damage	4662.04m
Total runic power used: 2217520 (95 wasted)
Threat Per Second	8411

0-17-54 Priority B

DPS	12769(+/- 1807)
Total Damage	4596.95m
Total runic power used: 2224160 (0 wasted)
Threat Per Second	8410

1-17-53 Priority A

DPS	12946(+/- 1785)
Total Damage	4660.44m
Total runic power used: 2049260 (20 wasted)
Threat Per Second	7706

1-17-53 Priority B

DPS	12811(+/- 1904)
Total Damage	4612.08m
Total runic power used: 2050620 (0 wasted)
Threat Per Second	7701

So I do get 1-17-53 ahead of 0-17-54 in case of priority B and the other way around in case of priority A (although just slightly). Priority A is, however, ahead by a significant amount for any of the two specs. This is completely in line with what I posted a few days ago about prioritizing. However, whether 1-17-53 or 0-17-54 is ahead probably depends on your gear. The difference is miniscule in any event.

Edit2: The results regarding priorities are robust to any realistic amount of external RP (I tested up to 60 RP per 60 sec and 1 RP per 1 sec). The same is true for specs, both specs are within 4-5 DPS of each other in any simulation.

Ela · 04/26/10, 7:32 AM

Originally Posted by Amroo

You used the wrong sigil in your sims.

Thanks, fixed that and updated previous post, results remain similar with 1-17-53 pulling ahead by a really small margin. Happened also when I simmed again adding a healthy amount of runic power per 60 secs too in case anyone wondered. Also, at higher gear levels (2h profile) the difference between the "+/-" gaps is smaller than the dps difference (and 1-17-53 still pulls ahead by 50 dps).

The advantage though is even if it's a small dps increase, it's a increase nonetheless with the added bonus of less aggro wich doesn't hurt for add switches or human error.

Amroo · 04/26/10, 7:47 AM

Yes, both specs are really close to each other as can be seen in my edited post above. Which priority did you use for your simulation?
As I've said a few times, it is difficult to base decisions on hypotheses that leave the basic tank & spank fight without threat worries. Since I've got Bryntroll I haven't ever had threat problems to the extend that I couldn't go all out on a mob (although it's not unusual to be in the 90% range, but that's still 20% to go), so threat reduction would be a dubious gain. On the other hand you could construct an argument for Dirge and the increased RP generation by saying it gives you a higher chance of having enough RP for a DC when you are not in melee range. It's possible to argue both sides and since the specs are so close it's down to personal preference or the respective gear level.

Ela · 04/26/10, 8:14 AM

Originally Posted by Amroo

Which priority did you use for your simulation?

Used default unholy rotation, with 190 latency, no draenei aura, 1-17-53 took the point away from dirge, and 00-17-54 has 5/5 necrosis.

Re-did with both your suggested Priorities just to check and had 1-17-53 ahead by 3 dps in "Priority A" and by 12 in "Priority B" so it does depend on gear i guess.

I know threat reduction should never be a big factor, but as an added bonus to those that get higher results with 1-17-53 is a plus, if anything for situations mentioned above, or simply TotT. You have a point about non T&S fights, but I guess in those probably 2/3 morbidity and 3/5 necrosis could pull ahead too yet most of us roll 5/5 necrosis all the time, I guess unless anyone provides something different we could say both specs are perfectly viable, provide similar performances and are up to personal preference.

Evict1 · 04/26/10, 7:12 PM

I'm sure that this has already been answered, but why not spec into subversion for the 0-17-54 unholy-frost subspec?

neomasterc · 04/26/10, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by Evict1

I'm sure that this has already been answered, but why not spec into subversion for the 0-17-54 unholy-frost subspec?

There's no extra points. You can't even get reaping without losing out on too much yet alone subversion. Subversion only modifies one's SS and BS crit chance, whereas other talents a larger % of the total damage output. This is especially true since 00/17/54 is usually used with a proc weapon, namely bryntroll and SM (Mostly bryntroll). Your melee attack and associated damages would weigh more than usual due to bryntroll's fast weapon speed and the haste from a frost subspec. As for threat, it should not be an issue for any ICC-level tanks anyhow. Regardless, the difference is very small and spec choice should be left up to personal preference or fight mechanics.

btym3011 · 04/27/10, 4:45 AM

now with the frost subspec in use for unholy dps, what is the best aoe spec to use? before 3.3.3, when the blood subspec was used, we used to drop 2 points in necrosis to pick up 2 points in morbidity. is this the same when using the frost subspec? and will threat be an issue since we do not have subversion with the frost subspec?

my next question relates to the first as well. which are the 2 points that i can drop for morbidity that will affect my single target damage the least. cause now that my melee damage makes up a huge portion of total damage with the frost subspec, i suspect that dropping points in necrosis is really bad for single target damage. this thought crossed my mind due to the fact that my offspec is tank and i cannot have a 1 aoe and 1 single target dps spec. however, i want to push my aoe damage up to clear trash faster with minimal impact on single target damage.

resky · 04/27/10, 5:13 AM

Originally Posted by btym3011

now with the frost subspec in use for unholy dps, what is the best aoe spec to use? before 3.3.3, when the blood subspec was used, we used to drop 2 points in necrosis to pick up 2 points in morbidity. is this the same when using the frost subspec? and will threat be an issue since we do not have subversion with the frost subspec?

my next question relates to the first as well. which are the 2 points that i can drop for morbidity that will affect my single target damage the least. cause now that my melee damage makes up a huge portion of total damage with the frost subspec, i suspect that dropping points in necrosis is really bad for single target damage. this thought crossed my mind due to the fact that my offspec is tank and i cannot have a 1 aoe and 1 single target dps spec. however, i want to push my aoe damage up to clear trash faster with minimal impact on single target damage.

Dirge is the weakest single target and aoe dps talent in a standard frost/unholy spec.