Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 22

Gugraali · 09/18/09, 9:22 PM

Originally Posted by Consider

It's not worth doing. PS + IT comes very close to the damage of SS (within like 200ish), except for that fact that those two abilities generate twice the runic power. Now you might be thinking "Why don't we just skip SS altogether then", but you don't want to do that for three reasons: 1) GCD constraints, 2) Sigil of Virulence (how they plan to top SoV in Icecrown is a mystery to me. It's just so incredibly strong), and 3) Increased Disease Clipping.

But isn't the rotation GCD constrained already? If the dmg of 1 SS is close to IT+PS, and we can issue the extra SS instead of IT+PS to save a GCD, doesn't that net us DPS?

And for disease clipping, wouldn't it better to be clipping disease when they're on the last tick, instead of halfway through? If you clip early, then you simply have more clips in the long run. Unless I'm misunderstanding your meaning of clipping, which I believe is when you IT or PS it resets the disease instead of refreshing it?

Consider · 09/18/09, 9:37 PM

Originally Posted by Gugraali

But isn't the rotation GCD constrained already? If the dmg of 1 SS is close to IT+PS, and we can issue the extra SS instead of IT+PS to save a GCD, doesn't that net us DPS?

Using too many GCDs isn't quite the same as being GCD constrained, if that makes sense. DC + UB is our hardest hitting ability, meaning it's what you want to do the most of - you are better off DCing over using runes so long as diseases are up and you're RP capped (or the next ability will overcap you or you are on an empty gcd anyways). This is contrary to how it usually is in two ways:
1) Rune abilities have usually hit harder for most specs, or
2) We haven't had that many extra non-rune-gcds before we had to use runes to refresh diseases, which this spec, despite not having epidemic, has. You have a 5 second gap after runes refresh in which diseases are still on the mob. With epidemic and a 20 second rotation, you only have a 4 second gap after every other rune refresh. That means it's less than half as much.

Thus when you ignore that factor - since it isn't a factor - it comes down to 1 IT + 1 PS or 1 SS. The latter might hit 100-200 harder, but the former generates almost twice the RP (35 as opposed to 20), which more than covers that gap, thus making it win.

As said in a previous post, however, you can't drop SS completely because of SoV (which really is that huge), disease clipping (which you want as little as possible of) and because of GCDs (going over 10 seconds in gcds per rune refresh is fine, but going over 15 per rune refresh would cause issues, and dropping SS completely could lead to that potentially).

And for disease clipping, wouldn't it better to be clipping disease when they're on the last tick, instead of halfway through? If you clip early, then you simply have more clips in the long run. Unless I'm misunderstanding your meaning of clipping, which I believe is when you IT or PS it resets the disease instead of refreshing it?

Not really. When you clip diseases in relation to the entire duration of the disease doesn't matter. What does matter is when you clip diseases in relation to how long the diseases had until it was to tick next.

That said, using IT + PS more does increase the latter, which is why our total disease damage will be somewhat lower next patch. However, it is still worth doing:

If you do what you're suggesting (which is PS - IT - SS - BS - BS - DC - DC // SS - IT - PS - BS - BS - DC - DC), what do you do on the third rune refresh? SS - PS - IT - BS - BS - DC - DC? Then you only notice that extra SS the first time around, as you can't keep doing it (since those BS's won't convert to death runes meaning you can't go SS - SS - PS - IT - DC - DC. And you don't want to go SS - SS - BS - BS - DC - DC, because diseases will fall off before that last DC). So, yeah, it isn't something you can do repeatedly, and thus disease clipping isn't an extended issue. You can do it once per the entire fight (or per phase change or whatever it would take for you to completely restart your rotation) and that's it. And the 20 extra RP covers that one time 100-200 damage loss - thus meaning you don't even want to bother doing it that one time.

If any of that made sense.

Feel free to use the sim and try to make it work, but I couldn't get it to myself, and these are the reasons why it seems logical to me that I couldn't.

• frmorrison · 09/18/09, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by Consider

I have contemplated adding a gem section to the OP (one of much more depth and clarity than this post, of course), especially with the value of haste going up so much, meaning that you'll actually want to use yellow sockets on Fierce Ametrines fairly often, instead of just skipping them over for reds. I might still do it, it's just that the meta-situation is so gear specific, that it's a pain to explain and to cover every scenario.

Gems seem like a BiS thread to show people what to do. However, saying use Bold for red/blue gems and a Fierce yellow/red gem if you get a 4 strength or higher bonus maybe worth adding.

You can steal my text from the Ret BiS thread:
Gems
Normally use [Bold Cardinal Ruby] and one [Nightmare Tear] for your gems. Use Hit rating [Etched Ametrine] if under the melee hit cap and [Fierce Ametrine] in yellow sockets if the socket bonus is +4 Strength or higher.

xavu · 09/19/09, 4:00 AM

Has anyone considered using the new reaping-less build with iup?

Tried to sim it. Got the rotation right, but I'm still having some issues with importing new skill templates. "Error while importing talents".

Anyway, if someone has already simmed the iup-variant (in unholy presence of course), would be great to hear something.

Mortak · 09/19/09, 5:03 AM

And how about not skipping reaping and using it on 2 ITs?

Flopi · 09/19/09, 7:07 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Gems seem like a BiS thread to show people what to do. However, saying use Bold for red/blue gems and a Fierce yellow/red gem if you get a 4 strength or higher bonus maybe worth adding.

You can steal my text from the Ret BiS thread:
Gems
Normally use [Bold Cardinal Ruby] and one [Nightmare Tear] for your gems. Use Hit rating [Etched Ametrine] if under the melee hit cap and [Fierce Ametrine] in yellow sockets if the socket bonus is +4 Strength or higher.

I never thought about that but seeing it made me do some math again just to see the values:

20str - 20 * 3,05 = 61

socket bonus 8 str - 8*3,05 = 24,4
10str = 10*3,05 = 30,5
10hst = 10 * 2,29 = 22,9
total = 77,8

socket bonus 6 str - 8*3,05 = 18,3
10str = 10*3,05 = 30,5
10hst = 10 * 2,29 = 22,9
total = 71,1

socket bonus 4 str - 8*3,05 = 12,2
10str = 10*3,05 = 30,5
10hst = 10 * 2,29 = 22,9
total = 65,6

best place to get bonus for chaotic seems to be Chestplate of the Frostborn hero which has RBY sockets and +8str socket bonus. Using +10 stats/+20str/+10str+10hst. EDIT: Best for me since that piece of gear isn't going to change for a while for me.

Also t9,5helm has +8str bonus and yellow socket. T9 gloves has yellow socket and +4str bonus, T9 pants has yellow socket and +6str bonus . It seems strange to swap out so many +10str for +4str/+10hst etc but math doesn't lie I guess.

diospadre · 09/19/09, 9:57 AM

Given the new stat weights I think it's likely that the BiS combo would change to [Legplates of Ascension] and [Koltira's Battleplate of Triumph], rather than [Chestplate of the Frostborn Hero] and [Koltira's Legplates of Triumph], depending on if the hit can be worked around.

Vindice · 09/19/09, 10:42 AM

Are we talking about a DPS gain switching to 17/0/54 right now in the Oblit gear we have (ArPen heavy)? Or is this a gain only after regearing to the new stat weights? I would prefer to switch sooner rather than later.

Also, you may want to add Algalon to the "Abusing AMS" section of the OP. You can get a full RP bar by AMSing a cosmic smash on the melee— you need to be close to where it hits, but not so close as to get knocked up in the air. ~7 yards.

Farno · 09/19/09, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by diospadre

Given the new stat weights I think it's likely that the BiS combo would change to [Legplates of Ascension] and [Koltira's Battleplate of Triumph], rather than [Chestplate of the Frostborn Hero] and [Koltira's Legplates of Triumph], depending on if the hit can be worked around.

Have you run that through Zerek's gear optimiser? As when I run the full 245 sets (25 man + 10 man heroic) I get shoulders, chest, gloves + legs for the 245 set, with [Sunreaver Champion's Faceplate]. I'm sure it depends a lot on whether or not you can run 10 man heroic though.

Edit: Did some more runs through the gear optimiser, seems the difference (for humans at least) between having the helm and the legs as the non-set piece is only 3 AP, so getting what you can would probably be best in that situation.

dr_AllCOM3 · 09/19/09, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by diospadre

Given the new stat weights I think it's likely that the BiS combo would change to [Legplates of Ascension] and [Koltira's Battleplate of Triumph], rather than [Chestplate of the Frostborn Hero] and [Koltira's Legplates of Triumph], depending on if the hit can be worked around.

Orcs still have to drop the T9 helmet. It has way too much Exp on it.

diospadre · 09/19/09, 11:20 AM

Nah, just conjecture based on eyeballing loot.

Kalitari · 09/19/09, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Vindice

Are we talking about a DPS gain switching to 17/0/54 right now in the Oblit gear we have (ArPen heavy)? Or is this a gain only after regearing to the new stat weights? I would prefer to switch sooner rather than later.

According to what I've simulated and tested in current 3.2.0 live environment it could be. In my case it seems to be about 100 dps increase (no raid testing done, yet, though), but even though I did have ArP heavy gear I have gemmed exclusively for +STR. I would strongly suggest that you put your current gear stats into simulator and go through both specs, if the 17/0/54 isn't a clear dps decrease you might as well spec now. 3.2.2 isn't far off anyway.

Consider · 09/19/09, 1:44 PM

Someone should generate some BiS gear lists =p.

Originally Posted by Mortak

And how about not skipping reaping and using it on 2 ITs?

Doesn't work. Your average IT is only 2700 (remember, no Imp IT or Black Ice), while your average BS is about 3350. As such, 2 IT will do approximately 1300 less damage than 2 BS. The former does generate twice as much RP, however (40 as opposed to 20), so you can then add half of a DC/UB to it. With DC averaging out at ~5600, that means you get 2300 damage (plus 460 from UB), which makes for a net gain of 1460 damage using 2 IT over 2 BS. You would be making this trade once per 20 seconds, meaning that comes out to 73 DPS.

3 points for 73 dps is not worth it. You get 2x-3x more by having those points in Desolation or Bladed Armor (which are the two talents you would take points from, depending on whether you value AoE more than Single Target or vice versa).

Not only that but, in reality, it's less than a 73 dps gain since you have to factor in increased disease clipping, an extra half of a gcd each 20 seconds, etc.

So, yeah. Nope =(

Can someone told me if UH will be better dps than Blood in 3.2.2?

I dont wanna waste my badges if in 3.2.2 UH > Blood.

The gap between Blood and Unholy in 3.2.2 will be somewhat smaller than it is now (thanks in part to the Subversion buff and in part to the ArP nerf), but nothing significantly different. If you consider Blood the superior spec now, you still would post patch. Likewise, if you consider Unholy the superior spec now, you still would post patch.

Are we talking about a DPS gain switching to 17/0/54 right now in the Oblit gear we have (ArPen heavy)? Or is this a gain only after regearing to the new stat weights? I would prefer to switch sooner rather than later.

Right now. I run with something like 360 ArP, and it was a net gain for me.

The ArP weights between the the two specs are actually pretty similar. You have to remember that the EP values I did for 17/0/54 are post 3.2.2 (since, at the time they were done, no one was looking at it being a spec for live), meaning they already have the ArP nerf in place, while the previously-existing ones are pre 3.2.2, so they are pre-ArP nerf. Thus the gap - which isn't large to begin with - is even smaller than it appears.

For technicality's/completion's sake, I suppose I could come up with the current 17/0/54 weights, but with the patch in a week or two, it doesn't quite seem worth the effort. One can easily undue the ArP nerf manually (simply multiply it by ~13.6% since it goes down 12% in value, so 88 x 1.136 -> 100). The only other stat which would change noticeably is crit - those stat weights do assume a working 4p t9. If I did do it, it would be more for crit than for ArP.

Also, you may want to add Algalon to the "Abusing AMS" section of the OP. You can get a full RP bar by AMSing a cosmic smash on the melee— you need to be close to where it hits, but not so close as to get knocked up in the air. ~7 yards.

Ah, yes, I'll add Algalon. However, I consider it better to use AMS on star explosions, not Cosmic Smashes. It will give you a full RP bar all the same, except it is much less risky (and it is damage which you would have to take anyways, while Cosmic Smash is not, meaning using AMS on the former results in you requiring less healing).

insane_machine · 09/19/09, 2:36 PM

Originally Posted by Consider

The gap between Blood and Unholy in 3.2.2 will be somewhat smaller than it is now (thanks in part to the Subversion buff and in part to the ArP nerf), but nothing significantly different. If you consider Blood the superior spec now, you still would post patch. Likewise, if you consider Unholy the superior spec now, you still would post patch.

Also do not forget that blood will get Virulence sigil, which with a quick simulation test, seems to wield 200+ dps increase. But I fully agree that the Blood-Unholy situation will not change all that much.

Leperchaun · 09/19/09, 5:22 PM

With the new stat weights, this is the gear list I've generated for alliance, this is for 10 man/10 man hard/25 man and the 10 man/10 man hard/25 man/25 man hard sets:

*Slot*	*Set 1*	*Set 2*
Helm	[Thassarian's Helmet of Triumph]	[Faceplate of the Silver Champion]
Amulet	[The Executioner's Malice]	[The Executioner's Malice]
Pauldrons	[Thassarian's Shoulderplates of Triumph]	[Thassarian's Shoulderplates of Triumph]
Cloak	Varian's Furor	[Cloak of the Victorious Combatant]
Breastplate	[Thassarian's Battleplate of Triumph]	[Thassarian's Battleplate of Triumph]
Bracers	[Armguards of the Nether Lord]	[Armguards of the Nether Lord]
Gloves	[Thassarian's Gauntlets of Triumph]	[Thassarian's Gauntlets of Triumph]
Belt	[Bloodbath Belt]	[Girdle of the Impaler]
Legplates	[Legguards of Ascension]	[Thassarian's Legplates of Triumph]
Boots	Greaves of the 7th Legion	[Greaves of the 7th Legion]
Ring	[Ring of the Violent Temperament]	<- Same
Ring	[Ring of the Violent Temperament]	[Gormok's Band]
Trinket	[Death's Verdict]	[Darkmoon Card: Greatness]
Trinket	[Death's Verdict]	[Death's Verdict]
Weapon	[Justicebringer]	[Justicebringer]
	-	-

Let me know if you find any different results.