Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 223

Necromir · 05/10/10, 6:42 PM

Is there a reason Winding Sheet is listed as BiS over Varian's Furor? Full BiS gear only gives 201 so you still need the 57 hit plus another str/hit gem to reach cap for ghoul.

Using those numbers Winding Sheet is worth 730.8 (str/haste) 738.1 (str/hit) and Varian's Furor is worth 743.02 (str).

Baphomette · 05/10/10, 6:42 PM

That's not a bad idea. I wouldn't even go to the trouble of a second table--easier to just split the Ranking column in two. Most people would use the hitcapped rankings which would push the hit trinkets down to the bottom.

Also on the topic of trinkets, Frost subspec (now the default?) seems to value Comet's Trail quite a bit higher than it is, somewhere above normal WFS. It's not going to make everyone scramble back to farm Algalon 25, but nobody's mentioned it yet and it would now make a pretty solid second trinket... if you have access to it and have had poor luck elsewhere.

Consider · 05/10/10, 6:58 PM

You're better off making up the missing hit through enchants and/or gems than you are by swapping cloaks.

As for making one table of trinkets assuming hit cap and one without, that's rather pointless. If you're hit capped, just ignore the hit trinkets! That's all there is to it.

Shigo · 05/12/10, 6:19 AM

Do we know if there is a haste cap for DKs or a certain point we should stop getting haste?

Noleafclover · 05/12/10, 11:32 AM

I see no reason why there should be one. Haste cap only truly applies to casters who use a lot of spells that are either instant cast or take 1.5s or less to cast. They do get a dps increase if they can start the next cast earlier, but once they get to the 1s cast/gcd time, haste loses it's value.
DKs do use some instant spells (IT, DC, HoW), but saving time on GCD after casting those is not the primary value of haste for us. We value haste because it's a huge boost to the auto-attack and related damage. No matter how much haste you might get, there's no way you could "cap" your swing timer. You can always hit with that axe just a little bit faster, can't you?

Shigo · 05/12/10, 7:44 PM

Originally Posted by Noleafclover

I see no reason why there should be one. Haste cap only truly applies to casters who use a lot of spells that are either instant cast or take 1.5s or less to cast. They do get a dps increase if they can start the next cast earlier, but once they get to the 1s cast/gcd time, haste loses it's value.
DKs do use some instant spells (IT, DC, HoW), but saving time on GCD after casting those is not the primary value of haste for us. We value haste because it's a huge boost to the auto-attack and related damage. No matter how much haste you might get, there's no way you could "cap" your swing timer. You can always hit with that axe just a little bit faster, can't you?

Yeah thats true.

What about using IMP UP for DWing? I am gonna try out a new spec tonight on Sindra using 1 or 2 Points in IMP UH instead of BS and Dirge.

Qrio · 05/13/10, 10:57 AM

Imp UP does NOT give you haste in blood presence if that's the reason you might be going for it. If you're going for it for shorter rune times, it's also not worth it as BP will always be better than UP right now.

Krayken · 05/13/10, 6:44 PM

Originally Posted by Krayken

With my gear FC/RI sims even with FC/FC on single target fights, FC/CG sims minutely higher than FC/FC on single target and a couple hundred DPS higher on multi-target fights. I went ahead and switched to FC/CG last night and liked the results; I am going to keep this for a week and see how works on a full ICC run.

As a followup we did our first night of ICC last night and here are parses from 2h & DW raids (we didn't get as much down last night as the week before.) As the sim suggests the damage seems about the same with DW pulling ahead slightly from what I did last week with 2-h\Shadow's Edge.

Note that I did change my spec a bit more to 3/5 Black Ice, 3/3 Nerves and 1/2 Dirge.

2-h: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

DW: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Overall damage is lower on DW mostly because of the multiple failed Prof fights, before those I believe I was over 10k DPS for the night. I also did more damage with DW on the stand and kill fights like Saurfang and Festergut (Rotface I got the first ooze and was standing outside with it for most/all of heroism.)

rh8452 · 05/13/10, 7:40 PM

I would think the penalty incurred in DPS by having to be away from the boss / target due to fight mechanics would be greater when DWing due to the greater proportion of your damage that comes from melee white swings / necrosis/BCB.

The normal mode fights are more tank and spank than the hard modes where there's a lot more movement required and additional mechanics to dodge or consider.

Krayken · 05/13/10, 8:28 PM

Originally Posted by rh8452

I would think the penalty incurred in DPS by having to be away from the boss / target due to fight mechanics would be greater when DWing due to the greater proportion of your damage that comes from melee white swings / necrosis/BCB.

The normal mode fights are more tank and spank than the hard modes where there's a lot more movement required and additional mechanics to dodge or consider.

I would agree, but as you can see from our Prof wipes I won't have to worry about that for a while (at least on 25-man). I have done several 10-man HM and haven't noticed much of a difference though I suspect there are probably some 10-man HM fights where 2h might outshine DW.

I think any 2H better that SE is going to out DPS DW and if I could get one I will happily move back to the normal 2-h spec. This is just a fun distraction at the gear level I am stuck at right now (and I suspect one that many in slow progressing guilds may be stuck at.)

Shigo · 05/14/10, 1:58 AM

Originally Posted by Qrio

Imp UP does NOT give you haste in blood presence if that's the reason you might be going for it. If you're going for it for shorter rune times, it's also not worth it as BP will always be better than UP right now.

I didn't mean using BP and putting points into Imp UP. I ment using UP to dps.

Bingeljell · 05/14/10, 5:18 AM

Originally Posted by Krayken

As a followup we did our first night of ICC last night and here are parses from 2h & DW raids (we didn't get as much down last night as the week before.) As the sim suggests the damage seems about the same with DW pulling ahead slightly from what I did last week with 2-h\Shadow's Edge.

Note that I did change my spec a bit more to 3/5 Black Ice, 3/3 Nerves and 1/2 Dirge.

2-h: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

DW: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Overall damage is lower on DW mostly because of the multiple failed Prof fights, before those I believe I was over 10k DPS for the night. I also did more damage with DW on the stand and kill fights like Saurfang and Festergut (Rotface I got the first ooze and was standing outside with it for most/all of heroism.)

I am super confused.. I'm currently DW frost as you can see in my spec and I was really interested in DW unholy to see if it was comparable. (I'd like a permanent pet and still be DW, have my cake and eat it kinda thing..)
I just ran a whole bunch of sims using your spec and glyphs with my gear. I Even modified the spec to see if any other combination of talents would give me a dps increase. DW Unholy doesn't even come close to DW frost. There's at least a 800+ dps difference between the two.

I even tested it for 2H unholy (cookie-cutter sub blood with Shadow's Edge) with my gear and DW unholy still comes short by a good 500+ dps.

DW Unholy: 11300dps
2H unholy: 11932dps
DW Frost: 12382dps
(Average numbers by shifting talent points b/w Black Ice, BcB, Necrosis and Dirge)

If it's a viable DPS spec am I missing something? Or is it just something you fancy and are therefore sharing the results with us?

U Mad · 05/14/10, 5:56 AM

I myself play with a latency of 220-250 and found that simming with higher expertise increased my damage as other posts have mentioned the value of haste increasing with latency. I decided to try something out and without changing my gear to meet the expertise cap and swapping in Glyph of Disesae for Dark Death I was getting a small dps increase of 15. Can anyone else confirm this? I believe this could be because having the spare global in a frost subspec would allow for more ScS and Blood Strikes to be parried without completely screwing you over aswell as removing the chance of Plague Strike being dodged also which I have found myself hating.

Also Krayken in your logs your 2h Unholy has alot less uptime on Blood Plague compared to your DW. I am assuming this is because you are using Glyph of Disease as DW.

First of all this effects your overall Blood Plague damage and wandering plague procs. The next thing is if blood plague is not present on the boss you loss the effect of Rage of Rivendare and your strikes will hit for alot less. I know you had another DK in the raid for Rage of Rivendare but I did not look at his uptime. But even so your main strike hitting for less damage overall is a major part in why your DW dps is ahead of the 2h parses.

*edit* Just incase someone wants the numbers for festergut and DBS your 2h Blood Plague had a 74%ish uptime while frost was at 94% thats a huge difference

Krayken · 05/14/10, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Bingeljell

I am super confused.. I'm currently DW frost as you can see in my spec and I was really interested in DW unholy to see if it was comparable. (I'd like a permanent pet and still be DW, have my cake and eat it kinda thing..)
I just ran a whole bunch of sims using your spec and glyphs with my gear. I Even modified the spec to see if any other combination of talents would give me a dps increase. DW Unholy doesn't even come close to DW frost. There's at least a 800+ dps difference between the two.

I even tested it for 2H unholy (cookie-cutter sub blood with Shadow's Edge) with my gear and DW unholy still comes short by a good 500+ dps.

DW Unholy: 11300dps
2H unholy: 11932dps
DW Frost: 12382dps
(Average numbers by shifting talent points b/w Black Ice, BcB, Necrosis and Dirge)

If it's a viable DPS spec am I missing something? Or is it just something you fancy and are therefore sharing the results with us?

Well I am the only DPS DK in our guild (the only other DK is our blood tank) so I am staying Unholy for EPB for raid DPS. I would almost certainly be doing more as Frost DW though I never really tested since I am "stuck" in Unholy (and frankly prefer Unholy/perm pet). I am only messing with Unholy DW because, after winning some 1h weapons on offset rolls, I messed around with Kahorie's sim I saw that damage was similar with the weapons/gear I have now. There had been other posts about DW Unholy and I decided to share my observations.

I am in no way saying that DW Unholy is superior or even equal to 2h Unholy when you get closer to BiS gear and I would suspect that DW Frost would out DPS DW Unholy at almost any gear level. As I wrote before, the second I get a 2h weapon better than SE I will be switching back to the standard 2h Unholy build.

Krayken · 05/14/10, 1:02 PM

I just wanted to add these to my conversation to show why I did the change to DW originally. These are the sims between DW & 2H with my gear.

One thing to note is that I play with very low latency (most of the time ~60ms) and I ran the sims at 80ms, not sure if that makes a big difference on DW numbers.

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances			Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
MainHand	674022994	17.9	201914	4804.7	56121	22.7	2475.9	84162	34.1	5090	44856	18.2	61631	25	1731.1
OffHand	418845218	11.1	199986	3026.3	54134	21.9	1548.6	84268	34.1	3184	46857	19	61584	24.9	1083.2
Ghoul	386732714	10.3	413744	1245.6	256548	62	885.7	53924	13	1770.4			103272	25	620
DeathCoil	282617606	7.5	48072	5879	32579	67.7	4386.3	15493	32.2	9018.1	57	.1
ScourgeStrike	263616413	7	53454	4931.6	32045	58.1	3179.4	21409	38.8	7554.4	1725	3.1
FrostFever	226706104	6	108730	2085	108730	100	2085									98.9
Gargoyle	208520659	5.5	44097	4728.7	38432	87	4190.1	5665	12.8	8382.7	70	.2
BloodPlague	188435933	5	109245	1724.9	109245	100	1724.9									99.3
BloodStrike	182046773	4.8	71310	2552.9	47011	63.9	1876.6	24299	33	3861.3	2315	3.1
ScourgeStrikeMagical	141871291	3.8	53454	2654.1	32045	59.9	1709.4	21409	40.1	4068
Necrosis	130921245	3.5	201914	648.4	201914	100
Ghoul: Claw	125369908	3.3	90514	1385.1	78642	86.9	1327	11872	13.1	1770
WanderingPlague	105864960	2.8	55878	1894.6	55878	99.9					77	.1
BloodCakedBlade	99414825	2.6	58683	1694.1	58683	96.8	1694.1				1960	3.2
Necrosis(OH)	81411762	2.2	199986	407.1	199986	100
IcyTouch	69779952	1.9	18509	3770.1	12482	67.4	2808.6	6027	32.5	5761.2	19	.1
BloodCakedBlade(OH)	61139968	1.6	57708	1059.5	57708	96.2	1059.5				2301	3.8
PlagueStrike	55188109	1.5	18512	2981.2	11118	58.4	1921.6	7394	38.8	4574.4	541	2.8
Army of the Dead	39801407	1.1	304507	130.7	264957	87	128.4	39550	13	146.3
UnholyBlight	28260453	.7	48072	587.9	48072	100
DPS	10474(+/- 754)
Total Damage	3770.57m	in 100h
Total runic power used: 2048580 (0 wasted)
Threat Per Second	7020
Generated in	37s
Template:	Kray-DW
Rotation:	Unholy-ReapingLess
Presence:	Blood
Sigil:	HangedMan
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader /	Cinderglacier
Pet Calculation:	True

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Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances			Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
MainHand	827355500	22	165753	6732.9	66342	38.5	3891.5	56540	32.8	8002.5	6747	3.9	42871	24.9	2722.7
Ghoul	406784225	10.8	413257	1311.7	256253	62	932.7	53856	13	1865			103148	25	652.9
ScourgeStrike	365294861	9.7	53394	6841.5	32707	58.8	4462.6	20687	37.2	10602.7	2191	3.9
DeathCoil	318380737	8.5	52194	6099.9	34856	66.5	4513.9	17338	33.1	9288.4	183	.3
BloodStrike	252659947	6.7	70998	3558.7	47744	64.6	2642.6	23254	31.5	5439.6	2882	3.9
FrostFever	233475254	6.2	109053	2140.9	109053	100	2140.9									98.7
Gargoyle	214616012	5.7	44413	4832.3	38692	86.8	4281.5	5721	12.8	8557.5	172	.4
ScourgeStrikeMagical	196132326	5.2	53394	3673.3	32707	61.3	2396.1	20687	38.7	5692.7
BloodPlague	195856623	5.2	109499	1788.7	109499	100	1788.7									99.1
Necrosis	160733018	4.3	165753	969.7	165753	100
Ghoul: Claw	132017168	3.5	90514	1458.5	78642	86.9	1397.4	11872	13.1	1863.1
BloodCakedBlade	127656812	3.4	47980	2660.6	47980	96	2660.6				2018	4
WanderingPlague	106124958	2.8	54235	1956.8	54235	99.6					195	.4
PlagueStrike	79936155	2.1	18506	4319.5	11360	59.1	2820.5	7146	37.2	6702.5	701	3.6
IcyTouch	71828138	1.9	18489	3884.9	12280	66.2	2867.3	6209	33.5	5897.6	56	.3
Army of the Dead	42027181	1.1	303931	138.3	264367	87	135.7	39564	13	155.8
UnholyBlight	31846675	.8	52194	610.2	52194	100
DPS	10452(+/- 549)
Total Damage	3762.73m	in 100h
Total runic power used: 2218500 (0 wasted)
Threat Per Second	6944
Generated in	28s
Template:	My Spec
Rotation:	Unholy-ReapingLess
Presence:	Blood
Sigil:	HangedMan
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation:	True

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