So has anyone switched to ob UH from blood that could share their results? Currently blood atm, but was wondering if switching to UH would result in a dps loss? The main reason I'm thinking about switching is to provide the sp buff to casters, as we currently don't have an active boomkin, and I would like the locks to save curse for CoD. So I'm curious if the dps gain from EP to the raid would be enough to offset any personal dps I may or may not lose. In addition, I raid with a enh shaman, so our buffs are a bit redundant atm.
So I'm curious if the dps gain from EP to the raid would be enough to offset any personal dps I may or may not lose. In addition, I raid with a enh shaman, so our buffs are a bit redundant atm.
You would likely go do a few hundred personal dps, maybe more if you aren't used to the spec. However, you would gain raid dps, since CoD is very good dps for Locks and trash pulls would go faster. Also any spriests and other DKs get 30% better disease damage.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
That spell hit error makes sense. Afterall, once you're melee hit capped, it only takes 1% to cap spells, so I can easily see the EP calculator going over. It's certainly something I'll look into and fix asap.
As to the rest of it though, I'm still not completely confident in Zerack's numbers to use them (no offense to him, of course). There's the huge haste outlier for 0/17/54, which seems rather odd. There's the fact that in his calculator 0/17/54 and 3/13/55 both have the exact same value for ArP, which obviously cannot be right since 3/13/55 has a larger portion of its damage as physical - and thus a larger amount will be affected by ArP, making it more valuable than it is for 0/17/54. Similar situation for agility. Opposite situation for spell hit - where it should be higher rated in 0/17/54, but it's equal. So on.
I'm not saying my numbers are perfect or that his are horrible. Obviously neither is the case. What I am saying is that, logically speaking, there are a lot of questions about his numbers, and I would rather not put something in the OP which seems so improbable to be right. My numbers, which may not be perfect, at least make sense in relation to one another, and I know how I came to generate them, thus I have a bit more confidence in them.
Anyways, all of that said, I will do my best to work on some more accurate numbers (or if they are already accurate, then some additional calculations to support them). When I have some time, I'll also generate "CC" stat weights (the current ones are based on end of Ulduar gear, which is what most people are probably at. I doubt most people have more than 1-3 pieces of CC gear at this point of time. With all of CC being out this week, however, I know there are some people who will be rapidly gearing up, so they're need numbers better suited to their gear level).
If anyone has stat weights which seem logical and accurate, by all means, feel free to share them. But for now, Zerack's just don't seem to fit, so I have to rely on my own.
On the BiS thread for 3/13/55, I see Bandit's Insignia; but in T9, I dont see Mjolnir Runestone. Where can I find information on how does Runestone compare with Insignia?
Also any spriests and other DKs get 30% better disease damage.
Just _thinking_ about it, no supporting numbers, I think the fact that you have no UH in your raid atm means that the Crypt Fever-gain might actually be enough to cover the dps-drop from switching to blood from unholy. Since it's a buff blood usually has from a fellow unholy DK otherwise etc.
EDIT: This was aimed at testament0221, just had to quote you frmorrison!
If I copied my results over wrong. Knowing my own chance for messing up, however, I screenshotted all of the results and saved them, just in case. Fixed =p.
When I leave for classes/work later today, I plan to run some new EP calculations anyways.
Also, to the above poster looking for trinket information, the proc values are listed over at http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t50274-k...4/#post1353398 . Those are simply the proc values - so you need to multiply out the passive EP value to add to that number to see which trinket wins out.
Edit: Actually, come to look at it, I'm not sure if those numbers are outdated or not. Greatness averages out to 100 str as its proc, as most people know, so you would think it's EP value to be in the 300s, while it's in the 200s. Could be an isolated thing. Regardless, Runestone is definitely better than Bandit's in terms of its proc - the first scales with gear while the latter doesn't. Bandit's, however, has the superior passive stats.
Lastly, the reason I subbed out GotG was because in my previous post in the old thread, subbing GoD for GotG was always more dps than subbing GoDD out.
With the new sim, rolling diseases with the highest AP yields higher DPS when using GoD. One final note, the standard 2h ulduar gear template does not have any trinkets selected. Using trinkets with Str/AP procs would help in favor of a GoD build.
Heya!
Stars may have aligned for me, Death's Verdict dropped and I received it. Since I have been having some success with glyph of disease in both dual wield frost and blood, it makes me wonder how well the diseases would scale when all the procs that take place.
Do you know if the simulator calculates the best case scenario with glyph of disease, i.e. it keeps rolling on diseases when all of the +strength procs take place, for the duration of the fight? If not, I wonder if glyph of disease spec for Unholy 3/13/55 would be viable, since the sims you have previously calculated produce already very close results.
Also, if we take into the account that ghoul is close to 10% of our DPS most fights, whereas death coil is roughly 8-9%, would it be more benefitial to sub out dark death for disease instead? (disease + obliterate + ghoul for 3/13/55, 2x t8, 2x t9, greatness, death's verdict, virulence) In addition, invest one point in ghoul frenzy instead of desolation or necrosis.
^^^ Given those results, it's obvious that losing GotG isn't that large of a loss, as dps was gained once it was replaced. So what about the possibility of replacing it with GoUB? As it stands now, DC is our #1 dps skill, so this would only buff that even more, coupled with 2pT8, GoDD, SotVH and Morbiity, we would have maximum DC damage.
I am still a bit of a novice when it comes to simulators. I was wondering if it is possible to get them to estimate the amount of arp necessary for gemming Arp over Str to become viable. I only even suggest this because of how Arp scales
Current stat weights and 4pc T9 EP values may not be looking at the interaction between 4pc (disease crit) and Wandering Plague. I'm trying to figure out how this could impact the stat weights for Unholy. I don't have 4pc yet myself to test, so I will be very curious to see if disease crit "double dips" between these two abilities.
This really needs in game testing to confirm. If this is indeed handled by a two roll system then each disease tick would have a chance to crit, and also a chance equal to your crit rating to trigger Wandering Plague. I believe we know currently that Wandering Plague copies the value of a given triggering tick and applies it to all valid targets. If a given triggering tick was already crit via 4pc, the full crit value could be reapplied giving you essentially a double-crit on all valid targets.
It will be interesting to see if this changes the current 1.46 EP value for crit with 3/13/55.
Stars may have aligned for me, Death's Verdict dropped and I received it. Since I have been having some success with glyph of disease in both dual wield frost and blood, it makes me wonder how well the diseases would scale when all the procs that take place.
Do you know if the simulator calculates the best case scenario with glyph of disease, i.e. it keeps rolling on diseases when all of the +strength procs take place, for the duration of the fight? If not, I wonder if glyph of disease spec for Unholy 3/13/55 would be viable, since the sims you have previously calculated produce already very close results.
Also, if we take into the account that ghoul is close to 10% of our DPS most fights, whereas death coil is roughly 8-9%, would it be more benefitial to sub out dark death for disease instead? (disease + obliterate + ghoul for 3/13/55, 2x t8, 2x t9, greatness, death's verdict, virulence) In addition, invest one point in ghoul frenzy instead of desolation or necrosis.
The current sim will roll diseases with the highest amount of AP. Meaning it checks what diseases its rolling now and remembers how much AP it had when it cast them, and will recast them if current AP is higher.
Just because the Ghoul is more dps than DC doesn't mean the Glyph will result in more dps. In all the sims I ran GoDD > GotG, however the spec I used in the sim didn't have ghoul frenzy because I don't think the sim supports ghoul frenzy.
Just because the Ghoul is more dps than DC doesn't mean the Glyph will result in more dps. In all the sims I ran GoDD > GotG, however the spec I used in the sim didn't have ghoul frenzy because I don't think the sim supports ghoul frenzy.
Even if DD gave more dps than Ghoul, the extra stamina the ghoul gains is invaluable for more time for the "smart heals" to find the pet. That should be the last glyph to give up as Unholy.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Finally home, and new EP values are as follows. Seems to be a bit more accurate (specifically in terms of the set bonuses - boni?), but nothing drastically changed (not that anything was expected to). Spell hit is still low, but it is the latest version of the sim, so not sure what to say. It only takes 1% spell hit after capping melee to cap spells (thanks to Virulence and Imp FF/Misery, along with 8% melee hit equalling 10% spell hit), so it shouldn't affect gearing practices.
Unless someone sees something glaringly wrong, I will be updating the OP with these values although, as I said, they differences are very, very minor - these were just calculated over twice the period of time and with a slightly more accurate gear set (based on what would have been best in slot for 3/13/55 in 3.1, essentially).
Well, I went ahead and did some simulations of my own. I edited the trinkets to match, that is Death's Verdict + Greatness.
Here are my findings:
1. The simmed DPS difference between (2x T8 + 2x T9) and (4x T8) is very small for 3/13/55.
2. I was incorrect about death coil being only 8 to 9%. Must have been used to seeing Blood's. Using Dark Death, the breakdown is 12%, without Dark Death, it is around 10%.
3. After taking away 1 point from Necrosis, and placed that into Ghoul Frenzy, it is always a DPS loss of +/-100 no matter what the glyphs are. Is this because the simulator attempts to keep Ghoul Frenzy with 100% up time? We would only use it if the ghoul needed healing, so I wonder if the DPS loss would be closer for that 1 point. (Looking at the Necrosis damage breakdown it is 0.7% for that 1 point as expected)
4. Now the interesting part. Using glyphs of Obliterate + Disease + Ghoul versus Obliterate + Disease + Dark Death, the simmed result was only 30 DPS apart with Dark Death being higher, and both are 300 more DPS than Obliterate + Ghoul + Dark Death (traditional setup). So in conclusion all those strength buffs are very beneficial to either playstyle with the Disease glyph, and it probably comes down to preference.
Ghoul usually has a lot of up time on DPS but it requires micro management on Mimiron, and as far as I know still bug fairly often at Yogg-Saron. Dark Death with proper usage of Anti-Magic Shell soaking can also be helpful.
1. The simmed DPS difference between (2x T8 + 2x T9) and (4x T8) is very small for 3/13/55.
Well, yeah, that's been known ^^. The EP differences between the two have typically run between 0 and 30, depending on other gear, which is quite insignificant. The extra stats 2p t9 gives you will push it ahead.
3. After taking away 1 point from Necrosis, and placed that into Ghoul Frenzy, it is always a DPS loss of +/-100 no matter what the glyphs are. Is this because the simulator attempts to keep Ghoul Frenzy with 100% up time? We would only use it if the ghoul needed healing, so I wonder if the DPS loss would be closer for that 1 point. (Looking at the Necrosis damage breakdown it is 0.7% for that 1 point as expected)
It shouldn't bother with Ghoul Frenzy unless you specify it in the rotation/priority file. Otherwise, it should essentially ignore it. Assuming you're doing ~7000 dps, 1 less point in Necrosis should be approximately ~50 dps. Without seeing the specific numbers with/without GF, can't see where the sim was going wrong, but the gap shouldn't be quite that big.
4. Now the interesting part. Using glyphs of Obliterate + Disease + Ghoul versus Obliterate + Disease + Dark Death, the simmed result was only 30 DPS apart with Dark Death being higher, and both are 300 more DPS than Obliterate + Ghoul + Dark Death (traditional setup). So in conclusion all those strength buffs are very beneficial to either playstyle with the Disease glyph, and it probably comes down to preference.
There's a couple issues I have with GoD and the simulator - and that's primarily the fact that fights do not last a million hours. GoD gets it's strength the longer the fight lasts, which is part of the reason why it's going to sim so high. If it takes you 30 seconds to get the optimal buffs stacked to begin rolling the best diseases for the remaining 5 minutes and 30 seconds of the fight, the glyph's value is going to be drastically different than if it takes you 30 seconds to get the optimal buffs stacked to begin rolling the best diseases for the remaining 1000 hours of the fight.
I'm not saying GoD is bad, certainly not. I am saying that the simulator - through no fault of it's own, but simply by virtue of how it does (and how it has to do) simulations - overrates it. It just has no choice. Remember, simulators aren't perfect, after all. If anyone can present some good old fashioned math or a parse supporting it's use, by all means, I will happily throw it up on the OP (and probably try it out myself!) but, until then, as much as I do love Kahorie's, this is one glyph it can't accurately measure, so I can't and won't use it's word on it.
But, yes, DD and Ghoul are very close in value. If you are still using SotVH and are 0/17/54, DD is almost certainly better. Aside from that situation, however, the stam increase in Ghoul (and the fact that Glyph of Ghoul scales with gear better) puts it ahead. That extra stam is the difference between my pet staying in on a Shock Blast on Mimiron Hard or me having to pull it out (or it just flat out dying). A dead Ghoul is something the sim can't account for, but is obviously a huge dps loss. Taking that risk for... 30 dps? Eh.
I am saying that the simulator - through no fault of it's own, but simply by virtue of how it does (and how it has to do) simulations - overrates it. It just has no choice.
Your point about GoD being better over a thousand hours than over six minutes is of course correct. But you're wrong that that's how the simulator has to do it. You could just as easily tell the simulator to simulate ten thousand 5 minute fights or even tell it to simulate a thousand hours of fights broken into fights lasting an average of seven minutes and fitting a normal distribution. In fact, we could do this ourselves by setting up for smaller fights, running the simulator a great many times, and then averaging the results afterwards, but it would be a lot of work.
So, I've been trying to monitor all the spec talk since 3.2, but honestly can't keep up with the posters and all their posts on a consistent basis. Through all the reading I've done, it seems user Consider has the strongest arguments for game mechanics...
In any case, I've heard some arguments in regards to DPS Blood vs. Unholy. I'm currently specced Unholy (0/17/54) and steadily improving gear from T7 to Ulduar, Conquest and Triumph gear. Is Unholy (in that gear slot) showing better overall in DPS? All posts seem to lead that way, but like I said, I may well miss things in the endless pages of reading EJ forums... (I know it's all been covered in one form or another, but I'm just looking for a bottom line if there is a 'better' tree, or if they're comparable and just a matter of play style.).
Thanks.
Oh, that is true, Intropy. With how the simulator is current set up, however, it would take a long, long time, and a ton of clicking. Might be worth asking Afabar to add an option where you can have it run the simulator X times for Y minutes. Glyph of Disease aside, a million 5 minute fights are probably more realistic numbers than a single five million minute fight.
Anyways, after some discussion with Fargom, we've both agreed to keep the bulk of the DW Unholy info (and the entirety of its discussion, pretty much) in his thread. It simply makes the most sense to both of us, for a number of reasons. I'll keep some basic blurbs up as I have now, but for more in depth info/discussion, his thead is where you're going to want to go.
Also, the stat weights in Zerack's and the one's here will be brought to match in what I believe will be his next version.
/cheer for all the threads being in accordance with one another ^^.
Edit: Just now saw this question:
I am still a bit of a novice when it comes to simulators. I was wondering if it is possible to get them to estimate the amount of arp necessary for gemming Arp over Str to become viable. I only even suggest this because of how Arp scales
With an Unholy Obliterate spec, Armor Pen will never overtake Strength. Not in any attainable gear, anyways (and probably not in any unattainable theoretical gear, either!). Just because ArP is no longer bad for us does not make it our number one stat, not by any means.
So on. Generally speaking, Unholy comes within 5-10% of Blood on single target (and, quite obviously, far surpasses Blood in AoE, so I didn't bother linking those sorts of parses). Although, as such, it is certainly still behind Blood in raw dps, it's by a much smaller margin than in 3.1. It's still a bit early to really tell, however, especially when you consider that Unholy will benefit the most from 4p t9 (which could potentially be enough to put it over the top).
Oddly enough, Unholy outperforms Blood in Kahorie's sim, both pre and post 4p t9. It probably undervalues Hysteria, DRW, and cooldown stacking in general - one of Blood's strengths. It's certainly undervaluing (or overvaluing) something, as there's yet to be any parses reflecting the type of lead the simulator hints at.
Anyways, when you factor in Unholy's added raid utility, the two are both very attractive raid specs. Neither is flat out superior to the other in overall raid contribution, even if one does beat out the other in raw single target dps. Which you spec should have more to do with which playstyle you enjoy the most, what sort of gear you already have, and what type of raid composition you typically run with than anything else.
Maybe this was already mentioned, but kahorie's simulator doesn't seem to add ebon plague to the list of buffs/debuffs. As far as I can tell this means that in the simulator blood does not get ebon plague, but in most situations blood would get ebon plague. This could be one reason for the damage disparity.
Maybe this was already mentioned, but kahorie's simulator doesn't seem to add ebon plague to the list of buffs/debuffs. As far as I can tell this means that in the simulator blood does not get ebon plague, but in most situations blood would get ebon plague. This could be one reason for the damage disparity.
So has anyone switched to ob UH from blood that could share their results? Currently blood atm, but was wondering if switching to UH would result in a dps loss? The main reason I'm thinking about switching is to provide the sp buff to casters, as we currently don't have an active boomkin, and I would like the locks to save curse for CoD. So I'm curious if the dps gain from EP to the raid would be enough to offset any personal dps I may or may not lose. In addition, I raid with a enh shaman, so our buffs are a bit redundant atm.
I dual spec 3/13/55/new sigil and 51/20, I found the results varied a lot by fight.
For northrend beasts it was pretty much the same, for jaxx a slight improvement, for faction champs an absolutely enormous improvement, twin valks and anub I hadn't done before this week, and did it as blood as the most comfortable spec.
For Uld I lost about 1000 dps during 25 man XT normal, but saw significant gains on auriaya and freya. Didn't try kologarn as I was only source of 10% AP at that point.
It was probably worth it raid wise though, as our casters snuck into the top 10 for the first time in living memory - they've been suffering a lot with our inability to keep an elemental shaman or boomkin for more than 2 weeks.
I don't have the parse with me, but here are my observations after using GoD with 3/13/55 for an entire 10 ToC and Northrend Beasts on hard mode... no math, just experience and feel. I'm very inclined to agree with Consider in that, when executed properly, these fights don't last very long... so the mileage on GoD varies a lot.
Regular:
Beasts - not a bad gain. We had people with snobolds run in so the melee could help kill them. It's such an easy fight I saw a nice pickup being able to roll diseases that were put up during greatness, desolation, fallen crusader, and SoV proc. Worms were a little less of a gain since you can't maintain the diseases when they burrow. The same is true for Icehowl with being thrown around the arena and being out of range to refresh at times.
Jaraxxus - if you stay on him as interrupt duty, you can see the gain. If you are having to run out for portal spawns, you may not get back in time to refresh the diseases. If you don't, it's a slight loss in my experience.
Faction Champs - it was really nice here since you can stick to the primary target like glue and keep everything rolling at a high level from target to target. I did more damage in 10 than I did in 25 as blood or DW frost. After my original disease application on the pull, I never had to reapply for the entire encounter on any boss. Once we got down to the last three or so I would DG the burn target closer to the remaining targets so I could pest the diseases to them more easily.
Twins - I did the same as blood and dw frost here. Maintaining the diseases with GoD was very easy.
Anub - I can't compare it to another spec since he was a one shot. Diseases drop off when he burrows, so it's hard to say whether GoD is worth it here. It was nice being able to pest him and then switch immediately to an add that already had diseases though. That cut my number of disease applications down considerably.
Hard:
Beasts - we fell apart here and couldn't down the magnataur even after one shotting everything in normal including Anub after never seeing him. Healers weren't able to keep everyone healed if we brought the snobolds in because of the stomp. Having to run out to help with snobolds killed making GoD worthwhile here for me. I couldn't maintain diseases, so the "rolling" effect was nonexistent for me. However, we may have just not been doing all the things we needed here, so your experience with time on target may be better than mine, which would give you more benefit from GoD than I received.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
09/01/09, 6:58 PM
