Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 3

NaeblisHyjal · 08/31/09, 2:14 AM

I was curious which spec would win between the two if each of them had BiS gear, DW Frost or Unholy Obliterate.

I took the gear posted in the Optimal BiS Gear thread, added up all the stats, enchants, gems, and my base character stats. Then I created a character in Kahorie's DK Simulator with that information.

Some things to note:
Talent templates used are the default 17-54 Unholy Oblit and 3-51-17 Frost in Kahorie's DK Simulator
Priorities used are the default Unholy Oblit and Frost priorities in Kahorie's DK Simulator
Both tests are in Blood Presence
DW Test is Fallen Crusader / Razor Ice with Sigil of Awareness
Unholy Test is Fallen Crusader with Sigil of Virulence
I am an orc.
I am a Blacksmith and Jewelcrafter, so I took the Bracer, Belt, and Gauntlet extra gem slots and plugged in +34 Str gems into it.
I used a Nightmare's Tear on items with 1blue/1red with a +6str socket bonus to activate my meta.
I used a 10str / 10crit gem on items with 1yellow/1red with a socket bonus of at least +6str.
Characters have 2piece and 4piece T9 Activated
Characters have Death's Choice and DMC: Greatness Activated
These are 100 Hour tests.

Edit: There are now screenshots of tallied up stat sets under the Optimal BiS Gear thread. These character sheets and results now reflect those screenshots added with the base stats of my orc.

Character stats for 2h ToC:

<character>
	<stat>
		<Strength>2233</Strength>
		<Agility>150</Agility>
		<Intel>32</Intel>
		<Armor>15214</Armor>
		<AttackPower>503</AttackPower>
		<HitRating>370</HitRating>
		<CritRating>807</CritRating>
		<HasteRating>262</HasteRating>
		<ArmorPenetrationRating>300</ArmorPenetrationRating>
		<ExpertiseRating>203</ExpertiseRating>
	</stat>
	<weapon>
		<count>1</count>
		<mainhand>
			<dps>281.7</dps>
			<speed>3.6</speed>
		</mainhand>
		<offhand>
			<dps>0</dps>
			<speed>0</speed>
		</offhand>
	</weapon>

Unholy Obliterate Results:

Ability Total % Landed Hit% Crit% Miss% Average 
Main Hand 583266886 18.1 135353 64.5 35.5 0 4309.2  
Obliterate 528287961 16.4 70659 61.8 38.2 0 7476.6  
Death Coil 432373803 13.4 67289 68.5 31.5 0 6425.6  
Ghoul 393227197 12.2 333601 87.1 12.9 0 1178.7  
Frost Fever 236910740 7.4 107117 100 0 0 2211.7  
Blood Plague 235797270 7.3 107307 100 0 0 2197.4  
Wandering Plague 170450736 5.3 77339 100 0 0 2203.9  
Gargoyle 161314072 5 35524 86.9 13.1 0 4541  
Blood Strike 113933501 3.5 35027 61.2 38.8 0 3252.7  
Blood Caked Blade 92132380 2.9 40609 100 0 0 2268.8  
UB 86474077 2.7 67289 100 0 0 1285.1  
Necrosis 69990684 2.2 135353 100 0 0 517.1  
Icy Touch 62676415 1.9 17568 68.6 31.4 0 3567.6  
Plague Strike 53371602 1.7 17517 55.4 44.6 0 3046.8  
Horn 0  0 16611 0 0 0 0  
DPS 8945 
Total Damage 3220.21m in 100h 
Threat Per Second 5963 
Generated in 112s 
Template: Unholy Oblit 0-17-54 
Priority: Unholy Oblit 
Presence: Blood  
Sigil: Virulence  
RuneEnchant: FallenCrusader 
Pet Calculation: True

Character Stats for DW Frost TOC

<character>
	<stat>
		<Strength>2036</Strength>
		<Agility>266</Agility>
		<Intel>42</Intel>
		<Armor>15185</Armor>
		<AttackPower>707</AttackPower>
		<HitRating>368</HitRating>
		<CritRating>899</CritRating>
		<HasteRating>225</HasteRating>
		<ArmorPenetrationRating>225</ArmorPenetrationRating>
		<ExpertiseRating>185</ExpertiseRating>
	</stat>
	<weapon>
		<count>2</count>
		<mainhand>
			<dps>216.5</dps>
			<speed>2.6</speed>
		</mainhand>
		<offhand>
			<dps>216.5</dps>
			<speed>2.6</speed>
		</offhand>
	</weapon>

DW Frost Results

Ability Total % Landed Hit% Crit% Miss% Average 
Obliterate 806636892 25.8 67989 35.4 64.6 0 11864.2  
Frost Strike 694700071 22.2 75586 49 51 0 9190.9  
Main Hand 417324119 13.4 161693 50.7 36.4 12.8 2581  
Off Hand 240607626 7.7 161764 50.9 36.3 12.8 1487.4  
Howling Blast 168860141 5.4 15162 11.2 88.8 0 11137.1  
Blood Strike 147851200 4.7 33342 51.3 48.7 0 4434.4  
Blood Plague 141443372 4.5 111406 100 0 0 1269.6  
Frost Fever 133181729 4.3 111457 100 0 0 1194.9  
Necrosis 131580157 4.2 323457 100 0 0 406.8  
Icy Touch 75439517 2.4 17251 39.8 60.2 0 4373.1  
Ghoul 55493211 1.8 65262 87 13 0 850.3  
Blood Caked Blade 55209230 1.8 64748 100 0 0 852.7  
Plague Strike 54017748 1.7 17283 54 46 0 3125.5  
Raz 1779404  0.1 161764 100 0 0 11  
Horn 0  0 5001 0 0 0 0  
DPS 8678 
Total Damage 3124.12m in 100h 
Threat Per Second 5148 
Generated in 87s 
Template: Frost 3-51-17 
Priority: Frost 
Presence: Blood  
Sigil: Awareness  
RuneEnchant: FallenCrusader / Razorice 
Pet Calculation: True

As you can see based on the BiS gear posted in the Optimal BiS gear for each spec Unholy Obliterate wins 8945DPS to 8678DPS. I was under the impression the DW Frost was supposed to win in the end, but the sim shows other wise.

If anyone else has tried this, gotten different results, or find that my math on character stats are wrong please feel free to let me know.

I just wanted to post my findings here, and I am sorry if this was already posted.

dr_AllCOM3 · 08/31/09, 8:27 AM

Originally Posted by Consider

Oddly enough, Unholy outperforms Blood in Kahorie's sim, both pre and post 4p t9. It probably undervalues Hysteria, DRW, and cooldown stacking in general - one of Blood's strengths. It's certainly undervaluing (or overvaluing) something, as there's yet to be any parses reflecting the type of lead the simulator hints at.

It must be the cooldowns. My dps usually skyrockets when I get a good combo like BL+DRW+Hysteria. In almost every fight there are small interruptions and they often fit the DRW timer very well. The sim doesn't stack them.

haley · 08/31/09, 8:44 AM

Originally Posted by Consider

Contents

Set Bonus	APE
T7-2p	77
T7-4p	212
T8-2p	110
T8-4p	144
T9-2p	133
T9-4p	626

Well, this is confusing. Would a rule of thumb look like this (according to this table) ? :

T9 4P > T9 2P + T8 2P > T7 4P > T8 2P + T7 2P > T8 4P

Damyou · 08/31/09, 9:05 AM

I've had a read through this thread and I have to say, I'm switching back to unholy now to give this a try so thanks for the solid info on it.

One question though, why 4/5 Necrosis when it has been documented as a fairly low increase in dps compared to other talents. My suggestion would be that since auto-attack is such a big proportion of the dps in this spec then would it not make sense to drop the 2 points that you can spare out of necrosis into Icy Talons?

Feel free to tell me if i'm wrong as I don't have the inclination to do sim tests etc but I would have thought that the extra melee hits would be an improvement?

Consider · 08/31/09, 9:27 AM

Icy Talons does not stack with Imp Icy Talons from a frost DK or Windfury from a shaman. Since it's assumed you have one of those two buffs as is, putting a couple points into IT is rather useless.

Originally Posted by haley

Well, this is confusing. Would a rule of thumb look like this (according to this table) ? :

T9 4P > T9 2P + T8 2P > T7 4P > T8 2P + T7 2P > T8 4P

What's confusing about it? T7 4p has always been an amazing set bonus. Remember, those APE values are only the set bonuses, not the set bonus plus the stats (hence why T8 2P + T8 4P does actually beat T7 4P or T8 2P + T7 2P).

In terms of DPS pots to pop, wouldn't the Insane strength potions outweigh the speed potions during a heroism? If I am not mistaken, haste from gear [which is dk by dk prolly 5% to 10% on avg] and the heroism already push the Gargs cast time down to 1 second and you cannot push it below that due to global cool down restrictions. Just wanted another set of eyes on this in case I am missing something.

I don't believe haste from gear and heroism already push the Gargoyle down to the gcd (50% haste on a 2 second cast does not make for a 1 second cast time, remember) or, if it does, that the Gargoyle actually has a 1 second gcd limit. I could be mistaken, though. Haven't really seen much testing on the subject, but it would be interesting to know.

Regardless, It's not all about the Gargoyle. 500 haste is far, far, far more dps for your personally - and for your Ghoul - than 120 Strength. It's the equivalent of ~750 AP compared to ~350 AP, which is a huge gap. Even if your Garg benefits from the latter over the former, you benefit from the former much more. And since you will always be your highest source of damage, it's a no brainer.

Grigori · 08/31/09, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Consider

The 1 second rune refresh reduction in IUP doesn't provide as much dps as one would expect it to in PvE due to the grace period of runes.

Hard to explain, but hope this helps: When a rune refreshes itself, you essentially have a two second window where as long as you use it in those two seconds, it will come back up ten seconds from when it originally refreshed - not ten seconds after when you actually used it. Think of it as below:

For purposes of this example, let's say all of your runes except one Blood rune are ignored.
0 seconds - Blood Strike, Blood rune goes on CD
10 seconds - Blood rune comes off CD
11 seconds - Blood Strike, Blood rune goes on CD
20 seconds - Blood rune comes off CD

You see, in that example (which is exactly how it works), the rune actually refreshes in nine seconds after the first use. Thus a rune will refresh in 8 to 10 seconds, depending on how long after it comes off CD you use it. What IUP does is make a rune refresh in 8 to 9 seconds, depending on how long after it comes off CD you use it. So in the scenario above, it would refresh one second quicker initially, but that's all. So it does give some benefit, but it's not actually as much as you think - it's certainly not 11% more rune based damage/11% runic power generated. If it was, that on top of the haste would make it actually be worth using as Unholy.

Or such is my understanding of it.

For IUP (and haste in Cataclysm) to be truly effective, that grace period needs to scale as well. The grace period is essential (otherwise you're punished if you are mid GCD when a rune comes up, or if have even the slightest bit of lag, and so on), and the fact that it actually gets smaller with IUP is kinda nonsensical.

Your description of the IUP mechanics is accurate, but your interpretation (bolded above) is not. IUP will reduce your rune cooldown by 1 sec on every rune cooldown, not just the initial. In the above example, your Blood rune will come back 18 sec after its initial usage with IUP. The catch is that the reduced 1-sec grace period means that if your rotation uses runes asymmetrically between rune sets (most commonly BS+BS/OB and PS+IT/OB for Unholy), you have no leeway for latency/reaction delay (so if you have a 0.5-sec latency/reaction delay, your rune will effectively cool down in 9.5 sec instead of 9).

Rotations with symmetrical rune usage between rune sets, on the other hand, will have a 1-sec grace period for latency/reaction delay to get the full benefit (9-sec runes) out of IUP. Currently there is only one known competitive spec/rotation (Unholy DW DC spam) that has symmetrical rune usage to take full advantage of IUP; unfortunately, it is the one spec/rotation Blizzard intends to kill off (Ghostcrawler quote from his recent one-line post: "Die Shadowfrost die!").

Sellout · 08/31/09, 2:13 PM

Originally Posted by Consider

I don't believe haste from gear and heroism already push the Gargoyle down to the gcd (50% haste on a 2 second cast does not make for a 1 second cast time, remember) or, if it does, that the Gargoyle actually has a 1 second gcd limit. I could be mistaken, though. Haven't really seen much testing on the subject, but it would be interesting to know.

Regardless, It's not all about the Gargoyle. 500 haste is far, far, far more dps for your personally - and for your Ghoul - than 120 Strength. It's the equivalent of ~750 AP compared to ~350 AP, which is a huge gap. Even if your Garg benefits from the latter over the former, you benefit from the former much more. And since you will always be your highest source of damage, it's a no brainer.

Thank you for the clarification. I think part of the thing that created a question on my part was the cast time which I assumed to be 1.5 seconds from wowhead, so there's where the oversight occurred.

Orlgin · 08/31/09, 9:21 PM

As requested, I have done a long simulation to determine the stat weights of the DW Obliterate build 0/18/53. Here are the stats I used:

<character>
<stat>
<Strength>1585</Strength>
<Agility>326</Agility>
<Intel>58</Intel>
<Armor>14431</Armor>
<AttackPower>613</AttackPower>
<HitRating>327</HitRating>
<CritRating>641</CritRating>
<HasteRating>372</HasteRating>
<ArmorPenetrationRating>30</ArmorPenetrationRating>
<ExpertiseRating>201</ExpertiseRating>
</stat>
<weapon>
<count>2</count>
<mainhand>
<dps>178.9</dps>
<speed>2.6</speed>
</mainhand>
<offhand>
<dps>179.0</dps>
<speed>2.5</speed>
</offhand>
</weapon>
<EP><base>50</base></EP>
<Set>
<T72PDPS>0</T72PDPS>
<T74PDPS>0</T74PDPS>
<T82PDPS>1</T82PDPS>
<T84PDPS>1</T84PDPS>

Trinkets include Greatness and Old God. Chaotic Skyflare Diamond was used.

EP:50 | AttackPower | 100
EP:50 | Strength | 327
EP:50 | Agility | 91
EP:50 | CritRating | 140
EP:50 | HasteRating | 216
EP:50 | ArmorPenetrationRating | 144
EP:50 | ExpertiseRating | 226
EP:50 | BeforeMeleeHitCap<8% | 337
EP:50 | AfterMeleeHitCap | 239
EP:10 | WeaponDPS | 475
EP:0.1 | WeaponSpeed | 19672
EP: | 2T7 | 5333
EP: | 4T7 | 15666
EP: | 2T8 | 10333
EP: | 4T8 | 9000
EP: | 2T9 | 13833
EP: | 4T9 | 52666
| Template | OB001853
| Priority | Unholy Oblit
| Presence | Blood
| Sigil | Virulence
| RuneEnchant | FallenCrusader / FallenCrusader
| Pet Calculation | True

As you can see, the stat weights for the DW Unholy are different from the 2-Hand Unholy versions. Haste is very strong. A version that has more ArP will have a higher Armor Penetration weight.

Using the 2H stats listed for BiS on this thread, using 200ms latency, this was my sim result:

DPS 9144
Total Damage 3291.92m in 100h
Threat Per Second 5991
Generated in 913s
Template: OB001853
Priority: Unholy Oblit
Presence: Blood
Sigil: Virulence
RuneEnchant: FallenCrusader / FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation: True

Edit: I realize that the DW weapons would have different stats than the 2H that was used. I just copied the stats and used Frost's weapons instead. A better comparison would alter the stats based on the change of weapons. My apologies for that bit of inaccuracy. I also forgot to remove the Draenei bonus from the buffs section.

Edit2: The corrected version is further down the page in a later post.

Consider · 08/31/09, 11:41 PM

DW Stat Weights added. Also fixed an error in the haste stat weights for the previously listed numbers which was undervaluing haste.

@Sellout | Gargoyle Strike - Spell - World of Warcraft is the Gargoyle Strike you want to look at on Wowhead. The others, some of which are indeed 1.5s cast times, belong to various npcs - Gargoyles in Naxx, Auchenai Crypts, etc.

@Grigori | Yeah, I knew there was something wrong in that post about ten seconds after I posted it. I just wasn't quite sure what. Thanks for pointing out my obvious (in hindsight ><) error. Regardless, that is the reason why I did not include it here. The primary problem with Shadowfrost and such variants isn't so much IUP as it is Glyph of Icy Touch (in combination with Chill of the Grave). It's that mass RP which continues to cause issues. 25 RP from 1 rune is flawed in many ways.

Sellout · 08/31/09, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by Consider

@Sellout | Gargoyle Strike - Spell - World of Warcraft is the Gargoyle Strike you want to look at on Wowhead. The others, some of which are indeed 1.5s cast times, belong to various npcs - Gargoyles in Naxx, Auchenai Crypts, etc.

Yup that's exactly where the confusion came from, the multiple listings etc. Thanks for helping sort that out, its always good to have a second set of eyes on things.

Max zero · 09/01/09, 3:11 AM

Originally Posted by Orlgin

As requested, I have done a long simulation to determine the stat weights of the DW Obliterate build 0/18/53. Here are the stats I used:

Okay now that is impressive. 9.1k DPS without T9 set bonuses and what looks like Ulduar level gear (if I'm reading it right).

Since your using Blood Presence for DPS you could drop the 2 points in IUP and fill out WP and Deso.

sweberry · 09/01/09, 6:43 AM

@Orlgin: Exactly what build are you using? Seing the post above me I'm curious if you didn't use WP. Octopi stated earlier in the DW thread that he finds WP to be a low dps per point value (~2% 3/3) which surprises me. Using IUP is probably still as always a preference and I would never go without it if I could possibly get it - but is WP really the place to take the points from?

Also impressed by the output from a non-ToT DW build; would love to see a percentage of total damage from each skill (do Kahorie's list this?) to show how much is Obli and how much is DC (again Octopi stated he has around 14% Obli-damage and 24% DC).

Orlgin · 09/01/09, 9:51 AM

There were two sections to that post. The first (stat weights) used the stats listed. The second has sim DPS value that was created using the BiS stats which are listed earlier in the thread.

I used the same setup as the one earlier in the thread for BiS. That includes both 2pc and 4pc T9. I used the setup NaeblisHyjal suggested in his post. I just forgot to do two things: 1) Change the stats a little since the 1H weapons would have different stats than the 2H and 2) Remove the Draenei bonus as he was an Orc. The purpose was to compare Unholy, Frost, and DW Unholy using the same statset which was best in slot. When I have more time, I'll edit the stats to reflect the new weapons, remove the Draenei bonus and post the result.

Edit: What a difference bad 1H itemization makes:

DPS 8829
Total Damage 3178.5m in 100h
Threat Per Second 5781
Generated in 882s
Template: OB001853
Priority: Unholy Oblit
Presence: Blood
Sigil: Virulence
RuneEnchant: FallenCrusader / FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation: True

This suggests that DW and 2H are roughly the same DPS in Best In Slot Gear. Good to know.

bpcatt1 · 09/01/09, 11:47 AM

I've recently started using the 3/13/55 2H spec after reading this post. I've already had several DK's I've raided with ask me about it... so very good job with the content in the OP.

After having great success with a GoD blood and GoD DW frost spec and rotation, I'm going to try it with the aforementioned unholy spec tomorrow in ToC (our 10-man night is Wednesday). If someone has already simulated 3/13/55 with GoD or has tried it and can link parses, I'd love to see them before I start experimenting.

I'll try to get some stuff posted on Thursday so the theory/math guys can look over it and check for any surprises in addition to getting a critique of the damage breakdowns to see if GoD warrants more research.

sweberry · 09/01/09, 12:03 PM

I was kinda guessing that already Orlgin, but I did notice the previous poster didn't so good that you point it out. I'm still curious about the damage-spread between skills though! Is the itemization really that bad when it puts them approx. at the same dps though.

I'm actually curious how RoCinderglacier would do for UH DW, I'm not assuming it'd be at the same dps but still.