Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 35

Raika · 09/24/09, 3:28 PM

Originally Posted by Farno

Is your number there for agility correct? 7 agility for 1% crit seems very wrong, even at level 60 it was around 20 agility for paladins and warriors. Also one of the main reasons for crit raiting to be better than agility is due to the spell crit you get on death coil (and icy touch I think) as it works off of spell crit, and agility only adds to melee crit chance.

Horn of winter adds like 3% melee crit, so this can't be right.

Xycoth · 09/24/09, 3:47 PM

Originally Posted by ahavrilla

100 crit rating gives me about 2.17% greater crit chance
100 agility gives me about 15.1% greater crit chance

I'm not sure what you were looking at, but the 100 agi = 15.1% crit chance is off. I believe the numbers should be 62.5 agi per 1% crit and like 42.5 crit rating per 1% crit. (That's per wowwiki, which while may not be 100% accurate, it is much closer than 1 agi = 1.51% crit).

So, it takes about, what, 47% more agility per 1% crit than crit rating? Looks to me like the point valuations are at least somewhat in line with what they should be.

Leg · 09/24/09, 4:18 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

You can't dump runic power with SS. Two runes with one strike is irrelevant. The SS glyph is not worth it. SS is not that strong. You disagree with stuff you haven't even read. Everything has been discussed in great detail.

I read all the post and tested. I just don’t agree after 3 days doing every single spec supposed possible on this post and some others I was trying. SS spam with a larger GCD is superior. And the less DPS increase talent to drop points goes for Necrosis (by the way if someone not agree with something even if it is new or old I think it is a valid quote and he should post it).

NeuroMedivh · 09/24/09, 4:28 PM

Originally Posted by Leg

I read all the post and tested. I just don’t agree after 3 days doing every single spec supposed possible on this post and some others I was trying. SS spam with a larger GCD is superior. And the less DPS increase talent to drop points goes for Necrosis (by the way if someone not agree with something even if it is new or old I think it is a valid quote and he should post it).

I don't follow your argument. What exactly are you proposing when you say "SS spam with a larger GCD"? Your comments are confusing, I cannot understand what spec or rotation you are advocating as being superior.

Leg · 09/24/09, 4:39 PM

Originally Posted by NeuroMedivh

I don't follow your argument. What exactly are you proposing when you say "SS spam with a larger GCD"? Your comments are confusing, I cannot understand what spec or rotation you are advocating as being superior.

I think my last post was erased, SS is a little bit ahead from BS and have more crit:

Originally Posted by Leg
I don’t agree! It is far better dump RP with SS. Reasons:
- SS have more critical and a critical bonus.
- 2 runes with one strike + Dirge .
So I am doing between 51-56% of critical with SS, 30s of RGCD with GoSS and using 2 Epidemic, 3 Reaping, 0 Necrosis (16/0/55) and BP.
3 points in reaping gives at least more 2 SS per 30s so is better than Necrosis.

ahavrilla · 09/24/09, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by ahavrilla

Long time reader but first time posting...I'm not sure if I'm on to something or on something, but I'm sure you'll let me know. I read through most of this thread and I don't believe this has been covered yet.

From looking at the stat weights for crit rating and agility. Why isn't agility more important? It's my understanding that the only benefit we get from crit rating is a higher percentage crit chance. Considering that agility does the same thing only more efficiently, it seems like the weight of agility should be revisited.

Here's my numbers (sorry no fancy wall of sims, I'm old school):

All I did was swap out some items back and forth and look at my character screen to see how the numbers changed (I was very careful to use only items w/ crit or agility and no other stat benefits).

100 crit rating gives me about 2.17% greater crit chance
100 agility gives me about 15.1% greater crit chance (and armor to boot for more attack power from bladed armor!)
That means agility gives almost 7 times more crit chance than crit rating

Would you still put crit rating stat weight at 2.1 w/ 4piece and 1.6 w/o compared to 1.05 agility?

Ok I apologize, I realize what I did wrong. I was calculating the agility numbers based on no wep equipped and wep equipped w/ agility stats and that threw everything off.

I ran my numbers again w/o this obvious error but the numbers still support my argument.

Horn of winter (or 155 agility) give me exactly 3.36% crit chance
155 crit rating gives me 2.48 % crit chance

That still seems like agility would be the superior stat. Anyone else finding different numbers than those? I know I now seem much less credible due to my ludicrious numbers posted above...but check for yourself. What do you guys think?

Zinfadel · 09/24/09, 5:00 PM

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Live data from ToGC 25 Northern Beasts last night. Well, mostly just Gormok dieing and us wiping on worms 11 times.

17/0/54

Cast sequence macro:
PS>IT>SS>BS>BS>DC>DC

Log lists pets seperatly. Has me around ~6300 w/out pet...asumming pet is ~15% of dmg, that's another ~945 dps so about 7245 w/ ghoul included. Everytime I popped AoTD I'd get over 8k dps for Gormok. No BL/Heroism.

The rotation is so frigging tight, I was very sekptical about going into bone shield or gargoyle, as I'm not used to to switching off of a cast sequence macro to cast something in the middle or in it's stead. It's just me getting used to a new rotation.

I think the most revealing thing is how much RP revitalize gave me. It's hawt.

Also, the log wasn't taken by me, and I went on to do ToC 10man in another raid from the log parser.

I hope this helps.

I also wanted to point out that armory has me in different legs. I switched to t8.5 legs for more haste(just haven't changed it in equip mgr. yet) My haste was around 364 total, versus the 308 armory as me in atm.

Alatyr · 09/24/09, 5:10 PM

Crit rating is far superior to agility, and most of the numbers in the last few posts are off.

Horn of Winter (155 Agility) gives me 2.48% crit. This is 62.5 Agility per 1% crit. This matches the number given on WoWWiki.

I removed my Wrathstone to check Crit Rating. I lose 2.36% crit when removing the trinket, which is 108 Crit Rating, which is 45.8 Crit Rating for 1% crit. This is close to the rating given by WoWWiki which is 45.91.

Finally, Agility does not apply to Spell Crit, while Crit Rating does.

NeuroMedivh · 09/24/09, 5:23 PM

Originally Posted by Leg

I think my last post was erased, SS is a little bit ahead from BS and have more crit:

Originally Posted by Leg
I don’t agree! It is far better dump RP with SS. Reasons:
- SS have more critical and a critical bonus.
- 2 runes with one strike + Dirge .
So I am doing between 51-56% of critical with SS, 30s of RGCD with GoSS and using 2 Epidemic, 3 Reaping, 0 Necrosis (16/0/55) and BP.
3 points in reaping gives at least more 2 SS per 30s so is better than Necrosis.

Again, I'm not quite sure I follow. You say SS is a little bit "ahead" of BS. You are quite correct in that, but one SS is approximately the same as 2xBS in nearly all sims. Since they are "the same", there's no point in spending 3 talent points converting 2xBS into 1xSS, you could put those 3 points somewhere else and get more DPS.

Bllets · 09/24/09, 5:30 PM

Originally Posted by ahavrilla

Ok I apologize, I realize what I did wrong. I was calculating the agility numbers based on no wep equipped and wep equipped w/ agility stats and that threw everything off.

I ran my numbers again w/o this obvious error but the numbers still support my argument.

Horn of winter (or 155 agility) give me exactly 3.36% crit chance
155 crit rating gives me 2.48 % crit chance

That still seems like agility would be the superior stat. Anyone else finding different numbers than those? I know I now seem much less credible due to my ludicrious numbers posted above...but check for yourself. What do you guys think?

155 agility gives me exactly 2,48% melee crit chance. Where 155 crit rating gives me 3,37% melee and spell crit chance.

Seems to me you have mixed the numbers. And my numbers matches with WoWWiki aswell. 155/62,5 = 2,48 and 155/45,91 = 3,376

NeuroMedivh · 09/24/09, 5:32 PM

Originally Posted by ahavrilla

Ok I apologize, I realize what I did wrong. I was calculating the agility numbers based on no wep equipped and wep equipped w/ agility stats and that threw everything off.

I ran my numbers again w/o this obvious error but the numbers still support my argument.

Horn of winter (or 155 agility) give me exactly 3.36% crit chance
155 crit rating gives me 2.48 % crit chance

That still seems like agility would be the superior stat. Anyone else finding different numbers than those? I know I now seem much less credible due to my ludicrious numbers posted above...but check for yourself. What do you guys think?

I'm getting 2.48% crit chance increase from Horn of Winter, and showing 45.8 crit rating being 1% crit, exactly like Alatyr.

I think you're doing your numbers wrong.

ahavrilla · 09/24/09, 6:25 PM

yah I'm doing my numbers wrong, will chalk that up to on something...even if my numbers were right the very fact that agility doesn't help coil crit more often negates any small advantage due to how much of the total dmg coils account for w/ unholy dps in 3.2.2.

Thanks guys!

Raika · 09/24/09, 6:37 PM

It seemed like no one was interested in switching subversion for ghoul frenzy and epidemic when I posted it, but for what it's worth I ran the sim and found it to be within ~2.5% of the top unholy DW build used in bensch's sims, using the stats he posted. However, the strike numbers didn't seem to match up quite right, so I'd appreciate it if someone else could confirm/deny.

I used:
Bensch's stats as posted in the post a couple pages back comparing DW builds to the best 2h build.
rotation of:
PS IT SS BS BB DC DC
GF IT SS BS BB DC DC
PS IT SS BS BB DC DC
(make sure Ghoul Frenzy is on =retry 0 or else it won't work right)

The only talent changes from Dual Wield build C were moving the points from subversion into Epidemic and GF.

It was about a 2.5% dps decrease on a single target, but it allows your ghoul to be healed, constantly, and with epidemic is marginally better for aoe, in theory. It seems like a viable alternative for the people who love GF/Epi.

Consider · 09/24/09, 6:51 PM

2.5% dps decrease for your ghoul really isn't worth it in CC. What fights does your pet ever die on? Beasts? The only thing which can kill it there is if you let it stand in poison. Jaraxxus? The only thing which can kill it there is if you let it stand in flames. FC? Nothing, really. Twins? Your ghoul is immune (or takes almost no damage from) stuff like Vortex, so it's fine. Anub? Nothing, again.

2.5% dps decrease as well as a loss in threat reduction seems silly to me when all you gain is some (unnecessary) surviviability for your pet. If you want to go for it, by all means, but it certainly isn't optimal. Hence why GF is still listed as one of those optional talents ^^.

Leg, I'm not sure where you're going. My HM Jaraxxus parse from the other night: WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay . That's a fight with no damage modifiers (like Beasts or XT), a fight without constant AoE (like many), etc. Nothing to influence the average SS/BS. My average SS was 6k. My average BS was 3280. That's pretty much in line with the sim's results (SS is a tad bit on the low side, but the crit rate is where it should be, pretty much, so whatever). Two BStrikes are ahead of one SS. The sim shows it. Actual parses show it. Not sure why you are seemingly in denial.

If they both do the same amount of damage, roughly (with BS actually doing more, but whatever), and both generate the same amount of RP (which they do), except one takes 3 talent points to allow you to substitute it for the other... obviously that talent isn't going to be worth it.

Melchior · 09/25/09, 1:13 AM

I am really not liking the new Bone Shield. It's to the point where I am considering leaving it behind to finish Bladed Armor and get the 1xBS/BB per minute back.

Edit - I guess even swinging that extra BS wouldn't help either way, though in AoE the BB should be worth the GCD provided enough targets.