A rotation can't have the Gargoyle in it. If you leave it out, you'll have the normal SS rotation. Your build is also not very good.

Just a quick question i know Arp is a stat to have for unholy now, but has anyone figured how much ArP raitng will be enough unbuffed I.E 300 ArP rating and so on.

0 ArP is enough to do good dps. However, just like crit and strength, getting more ArP will increase your dps.

That number simply doesn't exist for any class or spec. Arp is ok now for Unholy, that's all you need to know.

I forgot to offer them before, but the set bonus EP values for the 14/0/57 PTR spec/rotation:

EP:	2T7	88.89
EP:	4T7	49.21
EP:	2T8	104.76
EP:	4T8	282.54
EP:	2T9	138.1
EP:	4T9	422.22
EP:	2T10	220.63
EP:	4T10	395.24

Making the transition to 4P T10 will be a no brainer.

Assuming you are going from the ilvl 245 t9 set to the ilvl 264 (hm 10/normal 25 ICC) set, you probably will not be able to drop 4P T9 for 2P T10, not until you have at least 3 pieces of T10. A tier and a half isn't enough to give you 200 AP from one upgrade (not two, since its more a matter of going from 4P T9 + 1P T10 to 3P T9 + 2P T10 than anything else. Thus you have to go from 4P T9 + 1P T10 to 2P T9 + 3P T10). It all depends exactly how T10 is itemized, of course, so only time will tell.

Hey all, i'm new to elitist jerks so....please don't be elitist jerks to me

I have been using your aoe rotation with 3 or more mobs so far and single target rotation for two except replacing a blood strike with pestillence. This has worked pretty well for me until my blood dk guild leader who i regard as a pretty smart person said that i should forget about dnd because it uses too many runes for the damage that it does. This totally confused me because it was my staple in aoe pulls. Ideas anyone? i was thinking maybe move my 3 mob rule up to 4 mobs or something

14/0/57 would be 3 SS per 20, yes. Reaping would make it 11/0/60.

GoSS still isn't worth it, and GoD is GoD.

But, anyways, those EP values are obviously not set in stone. They are very preliminary. As it currently stands, Reaping is not worth it - if this changes, then the EP values would obviously change. Yes, Reaping is probably an intended talent, but it's not worth taking yet, so why act as if it was? If it was, then something would have to be different, and that something different would shift EP values yet again, quite possibly!

Those numbers are accurate for the time being, nothing more, and I didn't make any claims (and hope no one made any assumptions) that they were absolute.

Besides, I didn't put them in the OP for a reason ^^.

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As to Slacker, using Pest + DnD has been shown to be worth doing on as low as two mobs. The math, done by Bensch, is probably about ten-fifteen pages back by now, but a search should turn it up easily enough. You would be correct in you use, as Unholy.

This, however, does not hold true for Blood DKs. They require more mobs, as their diseases and DnD are both weaker. Thus your guild leader is right, so far as his spec goes. Just incorrect in regards to your own.

I just did the PTR Boss, have the combat log parsed, using the spec 17 0 54, dark conviction over necrosis (personal preference).

The SS numbers are rather impressive, the listed numbers = average, straight from world of logs (our logs are private, so can't link sorry)

Scourge Strike 9.1 % 4155.8 7173.2
Scourge Strike 8.4 % 2500.9 5447.9

The top one being the shadow portion, and bottom one physical component. With hit and crit respectively, 65% Crit for physical component, 45% for shadow component, the fight is very short though so the crit rate would be inaccurate, but its most likely based off of spell crit.

Also to note that the shadow portion crit isn't 200% yet, making it even more amazing.

Gear used Here

The problem with people asking about minimum ArP is that there is none. As you get more it gets better. Aiming for ArP at 0 to reach a special point makes no sense since at that point ArP is now better than when you were at 0. Most of the "minimum"s used are stuff like hit/haste/crit where there are soft/hard caps or flurry uptime that cause the stat to be worth a lot but lose it's value once a goal has been achieved, such as fitting 1 extra attack into a rotation. The point of this for ArP is at the 100% cap, however for unholy it's unlikely that aiming for the cap will ever be worth it.

As an Unholy DK, DnD deals incredible damage in AoE heavy fights, enough to be your main source of damage without it glyphed (over individual diseases, but around half of what BP+FF+WP do together). You aren't doing anything wrong.

I'm assuming SS was buffed quite well in PTR?

With the Gear upgrades we will be critting for around 16-17k. That is a 80% increase over to 3.2, I would say that covers the loss in DPS with UB.

Nonetheless it would be interesting how people dealt with the rotation. So far I see a couple of holes in the rotation w/o GoIT in its 3.2 state due to the lack in RP-generation.

You fill those holes with HoW, Blood Tap-Blood Strike, Gargoyle, whatever else you need a GCD for.

Too many free GCDs is not necessarily a bad thing, but too few definitely is.

There are some voices claiming 15/0/56 DPS is higher than 3/13/55 in the DW threat.
Anybody here that could test/confirm that?
I know the new direction of discussing here is already going towards 3.3, but remember Blizz will tweak the numbers anyway, so there is no use for statweights for 3.3 yet
The only point that should be elaboreted here and at the page 1 post is that DW Unholy will be dead (99%), and there is no need to spend any dkp for 1h weapons when planning going unholy in 3.3.

While this might be true, its far from confirmed at this point. the 15/0/56 spec you are talking about is actually a DW spec, despite not having nerves of cold steel. DW is a tricky mechanic, it scales very well with necrosis and BCB, and with gear in general. If a DW spec without the "DW talent" can currently compete or surpass a traditional two handed unholy build (as the data shows) then who's to say that a small buff to SS is going to instantly erase the large benefits of using two weapons?

Again, I'm not saying that DW is going to be superior in 3.3 or anything of the sort, I'm simply saying that it is far too early to simply state that it will be "99% dead." Lets wait for the data, unholy DW has always been a strong build, even back when SS hit like a truck.

I'm not so good with Kahorie's simulator yet, but this is the exact issue I've been toying around with lately. I know Rawr isn't exactly the best tool to determine what specs are the best (esp. since it seems to have zero support for Imp. UP), but between Tankard O'Terror + Aledar's Battlestar (my armory is currently toying with Singed Vis'kag) Vs Betrayer of Humanity, Rawr seems to enthusiastically support 15/0/56 vs any other spec. Not to mention so does the Team Robot Simulator, but I know it being a new tool makes it's support not carry much weight. But, for the sake of offering something rather than just saying I confirm...

Using my toon w/ the default rotation and full buffs, the Tankard and Battlestar (gemmed w/ Bold Dragons Eye, btw) 15/0/56 sims roughly 120 DPS higher than 3/13/55 (~7170+/-30 vs 7050+/-30 dps)

It could be for a variety of reasons - my gear level is still Ulduarish, maybe my playstyle just inherently favors blood spec somehow (as my actual game playing seems to show, so I kinda tend to believe Robot/Rawr).

So, yea. My limited testing/experience says 15/0/56 is a bit higher than 3/13/55. But I'm personally not 100% sure (especially at my particular level of gear) and I'm still playing with both specs.

Just tested SS again on the new PTR build. The shadow damage portion doesn't crit at all anymore I banged the dummy for 10minutes, not a single crit from shadow damage...the physical portion was critting normally tho.

Most likely bugged when trying to implement the 100% crit damage, will have to wait for another build it seems.

SS was nerfed from the previous build. The shadow portion no longer can crit, and Ebon Plaguebringer no longer affects the shadow portion (the shadow multiplier is now ~0.924 now instead of 1.0438).

I really wouldn't be surprised to see the crit and some of the buffs/talents buffing the shadow part removed. All this double dipping and double crits would make it cause numerous problems, which would be most apparent on gimmick fights that include +% dmg done.

Actually, the finest example for this case would be Hodir. Sure it's a boss few might care about but that would in no way justify the numbers the doubledipping and doublecritting scourge strikes would reach there. Putting numbers down, the shadow part of a double crit would be a 6 digit number.

I can understand reducing some of the double dipping, but without the ability to double crit, the damage of the ability plummets, such that it becomes little better than the current version.

Two tables below, both with the Ebon Plague nerfed factored, one with both parts being able to crit, and one without:

X is the damage the physical part does on a regular hit.

Assumptions made:

• Based on logs/sims, X is about 2400 in moderate gear levels. That 4,000 number thrown around early was X already averaged with critting thrown in.
• The crit rate of the physical portion is about 50%, and the crit rate of the shadow portion is 35% - it's most likely not affected by Subversion/Vicious Strikes, or so it appears on the PTR. Potlol's crit rates seem a bit on the high side, although that ould simply be his gear/good RNG.
• Hit/expertise capped.
• Partial resists ignored for simplicity's sake, and because they're so minor anyways.

Physical / Shadow	Total Damage based on Physical	Total Damage	Chance of Happening
Hit / Hit	X + 0.924X	2400 + 0.924 (2400) = 4618	(1 - .5)(1 - .35) = 0.325
Hit / Crit	X + 2(0.924X)	2400 + 2 (0.924 x 2400) = 6835	(1 - .5)(.35) = 0.175
Crit / Crit	2.3X + 2(0.924(2.3X))	(2.3 x 2400) + 2(0.924(2.3 x 2400)) = 15721	(.5)(.35) = 0.175
Crit / Hit	2.3X + 0.924(2.3X)	(2.3 x 2400) + 0.924(2.3 x 2400) = 10621	(.5)(1-.35) = 0.325

Multiplying the total damage of each combination by the chance of them happening - (0.325 x 10621) + (0.175 x 15721) + (0.175 x 6835) + (0.325 x 4618) - gives you an average SS of 8900.

Now, however, taking out the ability to crit:

Physical / Shadow	Total Damage based on Physical	Total Damage	Chance of Happening
Hit / Hit	X + 0.924X	2400 + 0.924 (2400) = 4618	(1 - .5)(1) = 0.500
Crit / Hit	2.3X + 0.924(2.3X)	(2.3 x 2400) + 0.924(2.3 x 2400) = 10621	(.5)(1) = 0.500

Multiplying the total damage of each combination by the chance of them happening - (0.5 x 10621) + (0.5 x 4618) - gives you an average SS of 7619.

So, yeah. Taking out the ability to crit can't possibly be intentional (not if they want Reaping to be taken, since it was already somewhat borderline before). If it is, it's an approximate 15% nerf relative to the previous PTR version and a mere ~10% buff relative to the current live version. A 10% buff to SS is still decent, and probably enough to cover for the UB nerf, but that's all. Not enough to make the value of ArP that high. Not enough to make Reaping worth it. Nothing like that. Not enough to warrant all the work they're putting into the new version and all the PvP balancing implications they're going to have to deal with.

More likely they were trying to change the shadow portion to the correct crit modifier and things didn't work out properly.

The EP nerf isn't that big of a deal, especially if it was changed so our dps wouldn't be too ridiculous on Hodir/Twin Valk type fights. I assume that means BI isn't working as well, however? Which, once again, isn't that big of a deal since BI didn't seem competitive regardless, but still, something which would be nice to know.

Edit: I forgot to factor in the meta for crit modifiers, but it wouldn't shift things all that much (especially if the meta didn't affect the crit modifier of the shadow portion, which I'm not sure on). The idea wasn't so much to show the average SS hit before and the average SS hit now as it was to show the average SS hit before relative to the average SS hit now, and so far as that goes, the meta wouldn't change things noticeably.

I'm not sure if im convinced that the non critting portion is a nerf, but rather a bug, GC has previously stated that they are about 2-3 PTR builds ahead of whats available to us, and he outlined exactly how Scourge Strike should be working including the 100% crit modifier. So until there's a confirmation I will be optimistic and assume its a bug.

Also I didn't mean to confuse anyone with the values I linked from our log, as the normal "shadow" component includes physical crits and so forth, but rather give people an idea of the numbers you can expect, and as you stated my crit rates are rather high, specially for the physical portion, due to how short the fight in ICC is, but that's the only place I could test it in a raiding environment.