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Old 10/03/09, 5:15 PM   #661
Sash
Glass Joe
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Blackhand
Yes its worth it to buy the 232 pieces to get your 4 piece ASAP.

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Old 10/03/09, 5:28 PM   #662
Kaejin
Great Tiger
 
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Troll Death Knight
 
Mal'Ganis
Upgrading from 226 to 232 isn't a bad thing either. Once you get the 4p, you can just pick up loot for other slots until you have the badges to buy 245 tier pieces if it bothers you that much.

Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh.

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Old 10/03/09, 9:11 PM   #663
concept84
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Darrowmere
There have been ALOT of questions as to how good the 4pc really is, so here is a raid parse of ToC HM25 up to Anub:

WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay

As you can see Unholy with the 4pc performs extremely well.

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Old 10/04/09, 7:13 AM   #664
Schpankme
Glass Joe
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Dalaran
Rotation w/IUP

Blood Presence 2H - 16/0/55
This build has kept me in the top 3 on many 10 & 25 man (pugs); the rotation provided workers like a charm and is easily macro'd for optimum movement and positioning.

IT – PS – SS – BS – BS – (HoW) - DC – DC
IT – PS – SS – BS – BS – DC – DC

Imp Unholy Presence 2H - 14/0/57
This build allows me to surpass the damage of 16/0/55, by a large margin; based on my current gear and lack of haste; as described in the OP.

Question: The 14/0/57 build does not allow for the proper use of HoW in the posted 2h-rotation; I'm left using other means to generate RP (Blood Tap or Empower Rune Weapon) so as not to have the HoW timer limit my rotation; is there a rotation which would allow the use of HoW without running into it's timer (many times there is a 3 to 5 sec wait for the HoW timer) ?

Last edited by Schpankme : 10/07/09 at 4:32 AM. Reason: SIGNED POST

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Old 10/04/09, 8:01 AM   #665
zagor
Piston Honda
 
Human Death Knight
 
Eonar (EU)
Looking for 3.3, I ran some simulations with Glyph of Disease and new Glyph of Icy Touch, and results look good.

First I made a baseline simulation to have something to compare results. For character stats I took stats of Consider's Sense on armory. What I changed was 255.7 weapon, Greatness, Mirror of Truth and 4T9 turned on. Something like medium level of gear.
Standard short rotation used.
Standard build 16-55, with 4/5 BA, no Epidemic, no Reaping, IT glyph (old glyph).

<Strength>2031</Strength>
<Agility>129</Agility>
<Intel>56</Intel>
<Armor>14486</Armor>
<AttackPower>215</AttackPower>
<HitRating>233</HitRating>
<CritRating>961</CritRating>
<HasteRating>297</HasteRating>
<ArmorPenetrationRating>193</ArmorPenetrationRating>
<ExpertiseRating>169</ExpertiseRating>


Result was 8097 dps.

Now to Glyph of Disease simulation. The build used was 17/0/54. Same character stats as before, glyphs Disease, new Icy Touch, Ghoul.

Using standard unholy priority the result is 8557 dps.

(not sure how to post the data in a table, so here's a short breakdown)
MainHand 18,1%
ScourgeStrike 15,4%
Ghoul 11,1%
FrostFever 10,6%
DeathCoil 9,7%
BloodPlague 8,9%
WanderingPlague 8,3%
BloodStrike 5,7%
Gargoyle 4,9%
BloodCakedBlade 2,8%
Necrosis 2,2%
UnholyBlight 1,9%
PlagueStrike 0,3%
IcyTouch 0,2%

I have also run the same simulation for 3.2.2, getting 8491 dps. Same 17/54 build as before, but glyphs are Disease, DD, Ghoul.

So for selected gear level and 17/0/54 build rolling diseases should give around 400dps more on single target, and if I'm not wrong probably more on aoe fights. Aoe would be helped with 2/2 Epidemic and 5/5 BA as well.

Last edited by zagor : 10/04/09 at 11:30 AM.

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Old 10/04/09, 4:19 PM   #666
Consider
King Hippo
 
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Draenei Death Knight
 
Dragonblight
To make a table you simply put [table]/table] brackets around it and then use | to set the collumns. Or you can be lazy like I have been lately and simply screenshot it ^^.

Anyways, the one problem with your sims is that, judging by your numbers, you used a normal X hour sim - not an X hour of Y seconds long fights. You really have to do the latter to accurately get a picture of GoD's worth. If fights really were a million hours long, GoD would win for every spec, no question about it. It loses value the shorter the fight, however.

That said, running sims with the latest version of Kahorie's, the Y second long fight option appears bugged, unfortunately. Regardless, running sims of 100h length, the difference between the 'normal' spec and rotation (with the new IT glyph) as opposed to a GoD spec and rotation, in BiS gear, appears to be 100 dps. When you consider that GoD will perform worse on a shorter fight (as all fights actually are), it's probably still not superior or, if it is, it's by an incredibly minor amount.

Probably. Once the "Y second long fight" option is working, I'll run some more tests. You would think that, of all the specs, Unholy would benefit the most from disease rolling. The fact of the matter is that the difference between PS + IT and SS, along with the fact that all three of our pre-existing glyphs are very strong, doesn't allow the increase in disease damage to overcome the gap.

Edit: In other news, I'm finding that Epidemic (with a 20 second rotation) is, once again, a dps gain. About 50ish. In BIS gear. I would presume the reason is two fold: the new GoIT makes clipping diseases that much worse and that without the extra RP the difference between an IT + PS and an SS is that much smaller.

Edit 2: Stat weights for Epidemic build/rotation:
EP:50 AttackPower 1
EP:50 Strength 3.06
EP:50 Agility 1.32
EP:50 CritRating 2.21
EP:50 HasteRating 1.62
EP:50 ArmorPenetrationRating 1.09
EP:50 ExpertiseRating 1.18
EP:50 BeforeMeleeHitCap<8% 2.18
EP:50 SpellHitRating 1.02
EP:10 WeaponDPS 5.74
EP:0.1 WeaponSpeed 382.35

(I have a feeling hit and expertise are slightly off the mark, but regardless. Most likely due to the fact that this build has free gcds, although it's still odd since the previous Unholy builds had just no more, and yet still had expertise/hit rated higher. Could just be something with the latest version of the sim. Either which way, I wouldn't take those two numbers as accurate representations of hit/expertise's worth).

Haste went down to the approximate 3.2.0 value as expected. ArP went down a bit (SS instead of PS will do that). Agi and crit went up some, which isn't surprising.

Of course, that's only of interest if epidemic really will be superior. Would like to see if someone else can get some similar results before I edit the OP or any such thing.

Last edited by Consider : 10/04/09 at 5:23 PM.

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Old 10/04/09, 5:54 PM   #667
Necromir
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Thunderhorn
Originally Posted by Consider View Post

Edit: In other news, I'm finding that Epidemic (with a 20 second rotation) is, once again, a dps gain. About 50ish. In BIS gear. I would presume the reason is two fold: the new GoIT makes clipping diseases that much worse and that without the extra RP the difference between an IT + PS and an SS is that much smaller.

Edit 2: Stat weights for Epidemic build/rotation:
EP:50 AttackPower 1
EP:50 Strength 3.06
EP:50 Agility 1.32
EP:50 CritRating 2.21
EP:50 HasteRating 1.62
EP:50 ArmorPenetrationRating 1.09
EP:50 ExpertiseRating 1.18
EP:50 BeforeMeleeHitCap<8% 2.18
EP:50 SpellHitRating 1.02
EP:10 WeaponDPS 5.74
EP:0.1 WeaponSpeed 382.35

(I have a feeling hit and expertise are slightly off the mark, but regardless. Most likely due to the fact that this build has free gcds, although it's still odd since the previous Unholy builds had just no more, and yet still had expertise/hit rated higher. Could just be something with the latest version of the sim. Either which way, I wouldn't take those two numbers as accurate representations of hit/expertise's worth).

Haste went down to the approximate 3.2.0 value as expected. ArP went down a bit (SS instead of PS will do that). Agi and crit went up some, which isn't surprising.

Of course, that's only of interest if epidemic really will be superior. Would like to see if someone else can get some similar results before I edit the OP or any such thing.
Are these 3.3 results or still 3.2.2?

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Old 10/04/09, 5:58 PM   #668
Consider
King Hippo
 
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Draenei Death Knight
 
Dragonblight
3.3.0 results. The latest version of the sim has the new IT glyph as an option, which is the only real change anyways (although it's a somewhat significant change not so much in terms of raw dps but in other ramifications). The sim doesn't reflect the new BS duration, but that should affect all specs near-equally (a global gain of 4 bs per 5 minutes, or 40-50 dps).

So far as 3.2.2 goes, even in BiS, I still get Epidemic as a solid 50+ dps loss.

Also, for the curious, 3.3.0 dps will be higher than 3.2.2 dps (according to the sim, anyways). Going from the current 3.2.2 build/glyphs/rotation to a 3.3.0 epidemic build/new IT glyph/priority is a ~60 dps gain. On top of the BS change, we'll be getting ~100ish free dps (and, with the new IT glyph and Epidemic, a pretty substantial AoE gain).

Fun, fun.

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Old 10/04/09, 8:15 PM   #669
Sash
Glass Joe
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Blackhand
Consider. Where are you cutting the 2 points for the Epidimic Build in your 3.3.0 sim?

It looks like haste will be going way back down due to the extra GCD's we gain.

Does your sim account for the 5 min duration for BoneShield to add in the extra BS with BT?

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Old 10/04/09, 9:04 PM   #670
Consider
King Hippo
 
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Draenei Death Knight
 
Dragonblight
One point is from Bladed Armor, one is from Dark Conviction (giving you 3/5 and 4/5 respectively). Ideally, you would take both points from BA, but you can't do that, as you need at least 3 in it to be able to put points in DC. I tried other combinations, but that was the most effective from my testing.

No, the sim does not account for the new duration of Bone Shield, as I said. It wouldn't affect how specs compare to one another, however, as it affects them all near-equally.

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Old 10/04/09, 11:00 PM   #671
Necromir
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Thunderhorn
Any word on the Bone Shield change being a tooltip oversight or if it's actually correctly implemented on PTR 3.3?

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Old 10/04/09, 11:10 PM   #672
Searix
Piston Honda
 
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Human Mage
 
Stormreaver
Originally Posted by zagor View Post
Looking for 3.3, I ran some simulations with Glyph of Disease and new Glyph of Icy Touch, and results look good
Could you model again popping an Insane Strength Potion on multiple procs and keeping it up the entire fight with GoD?

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Old 10/05/09, 1:23 AM   #673
Citgo
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Korgath
Originally Posted by Consider View Post
Edit 2: Stat weights for Epidemic build/rotation:
EP:50 AttackPower 1
EP:50 Strength 3.06
EP:50 Agility 1.32
EP:50 CritRating 2.21
EP:50 HasteRating 1.62
EP:50 ArmorPenetrationRating 1.09
EP:50 ExpertiseRating 1.18
EP:50 BeforeMeleeHitCap<8% 2.18
EP:50 SpellHitRating 1.02
EP:10 WeaponDPS 5.74
EP:0.1 WeaponSpeed 382.35
I am assuming that the CritRating value listed above is with 4pcT9?

Last edited by Citgo : 10/05/09 at 10:09 AM.

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Old 10/05/09, 1:46 AM   #674
nerdfuel
Von Kaiser
 
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Goblin Death Knight
 
Cho'gall
Originally Posted by Citgo View Post
I am assuming that the CritRating value listed above is without 4pcT9?
That would be with 4pcT9, Consider is assuming that by 3.3 everyone will have 4pcT9.

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Old 10/05/09, 2:08 AM   #675
Consider
King Hippo
 
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Draenei Death Knight
 
Dragonblight
Yes, those numbers assume 4p t9. I figure it's a safe assumption - a very safe assumption - to believe that everyone, casual and hardcore alike, will have the 4p bonus by the time 3.3.0 hits, if they don't already have it now.

Of course, if 4p t9 gets nerfed, t10 set bonuses are particularly potent, or the leap in ilvl to t10 is large, that could cause us to lose the set bonus regardless. It all depends, and it's really too early to tell at this point in time. Short of it getting nerfed, we would still want to use it on the vast majority of AoE fights regardless, even if we dropped it for superior stats.

Anyways, the crit value without 4p t9 is at 1.74 for that spec in 3.3.0.

Still looking to see if anyone can confirm my results of Epidemic being superior. There's no reason others shouldn't be able to, but still, it gives me peace of mind. And, if I was wrong for whatever reason, it would save me the trouble of all the editting of the OP I would otherwise have to do.

Edit: I had someone whisper me asking about Black Ice and whether a Frost subspec is worth it in 3.3. It's not (for 2handers). Still a dps loss.

On another note, remembering some earlier numbers, I figured I would try a 1/2 Epidemic build/priority rotation, throwing that extra point back into DC, and see how it did. ~50 dps improvement. There are some raid implications of EP not being up 100% of the time, however, so I'm not entirely sure it's worth it, but still. Something to note.

Edit2: Actually, scratch that, 2/2 Epidemic is still superior. You have to set it to a rotation (PS - IT - SS - BS - BS - DCx2 - SS - SS - BS - BS - DCx2) instead of a priority to see the gain though. The problem with the priority as 2/2 epidemic is that it won't clip diseases, even if they're about to drop in a millisecond, and the next runes up are blood. It causes Epidemic to underperform, specifically 2/2.

Also, once you do thise, 2/2 Epidemic gains an additional ~60 dps (on top of the previous gains) over the current spec/builds/etc.

Last edited by Consider : 10/05/09 at 3:01 AM.

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