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Old 10/06/09, 12:50 PM   #721
Kithus
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Vek'nilash
I tested a new build using Bensch' stat numbers and got some interesting results. The new build is:

0/19/52 Obliterate

Rotation:
PS-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC
GF-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC
PS-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC

You can simplify that to:
PS/GF-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC

I just needed three lines so the sim would know to use GF every 30 sec

No Set Bonuses

0-19-52 Rotation: PS/GF-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 7938 DPS

1-13-57 Rotation: PS-IT-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC-SS-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 7919 DPS


With 4PT9

0-19-52 Rotation: PS/GF-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 8582 DPS

1-13-57 Rotation: PS-IT-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC-SS-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 8565 DPS

With 4PT9 + 100 Armor Pen

0-19-52 Rotation: PS/GF-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 8664 DPS

1-13-57 Rotation: PS-IT-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC-SS-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 8636 DPS


As you can see the builds are close in all respects. 1-18-52 scales better with ArP. Obliterate is still better than Scourge Strike with enough ArP.

Last edited by Kithus : 10/06/09 at 12:57 PM.

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Old 10/06/09, 1:25 PM   #722
cossak
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Drenden
In regard to GoFS

Because next patch change to GoFS, i switched it for Glyph of Disease. 100%DoT up time and spamming SS. Rotation; PS-FS-SS-DC-DC-HoW-Pest-BB-SS-SS....etc dumping RP with DC when full, And hitting HoW when up and Bone Shield of course. significant dps increase too. Mostly 200 gear with 245 shoulders n a couple decent pieces, getting 3k+ in dungeons and 4k+ in raids. I know everyone has there own play style, but hope this helps at least 1 person. Have a great day, and ty for reading.

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Old 10/06/09, 3:16 PM   #723
Moohane
Glass Joe
 
Moohane's Avatar
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Thrall
Originally Posted by cossak View Post
Because next patch change to GoFS, i switched it for Glyph of Disease. 100%DoT up time and spamming SS. Rotation; PS-FS-SS-DC-DC-HoW-Pest-BB-SS-SS....etc dumping RP with DC when full, And hitting HoW when up and Bone Shield of course. significant dps increase too. Mostly 200 gear with 245 shoulders n a couple decent pieces, getting 3k+ in dungeons and 4k+ in raids. I know everyone has there own play style, but hope this helps at least 1 person. Have a great day, and ty for reading.
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess GoFS=GoIT and FS=IT?

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Old 10/06/09, 4:22 PM   #724
Sellout
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Kithus View Post
I tested a new build using Bensch' stat numbers and got some interesting results. The new build is:

0/19/52 Obliterate

Rotation:
PS-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC
GF-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC
PS-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC

You can simplify that to:
PS/GF-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC

I just needed three lines so the sim would know to use GF every 30 sec

No Set Bonuses

0-19-52 Rotation: PS/GF-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 7938 DPS

1-13-57 Rotation: PS-IT-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC-SS-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 7919 DPS


With 4PT9

0-19-52 Rotation: PS/GF-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 8582 DPS

1-13-57 Rotation: PS-IT-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC-SS-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 8565 DPS

With 4PT9 + 100 Armor Pen

0-19-52 Rotation: PS/GF-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 8664 DPS

1-13-57 Rotation: PS-IT-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC-SS-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 8636 DPS


As you can see the builds are close in all respects. 1-18-52 scales better with ArP. Obliterate is still better than Scourge Strike with enough ArP.
What did these sims look like without Ghoul Frenzy? Also can you link the 1-13-57 build.

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Old 10/06/09, 4:28 PM   #725
Necromir
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Thunderhorn
Originally Posted by Kithus View Post
I tested a new build using Bensch' stat numbers and got some interesting results. The new build is:

0/19/52 Obliterate

Rotation:
PS-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC
GF-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC
PS-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC

You can simplify that to:
PS/GF-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC

I just needed three lines so the sim would know to use GF every 30 sec

No Set Bonuses

0-19-52 Rotation: PS/GF-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 7938 DPS

1-13-57 Rotation: PS-IT-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC-SS-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 7919 DPS


With 4PT9

0-19-52 Rotation: PS/GF-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 8582 DPS

1-13-57 Rotation: PS-IT-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC-SS-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 8565 DPS

With 4PT9 + 100 Armor Pen

0-19-52 Rotation: PS/GF-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 8664 DPS

1-13-57 Rotation: PS-IT-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC-SS-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 8636 DPS


As you can see the builds are close in all respects. 1-18-52 scales better with ArP. Obliterate is still better than Scourge Strike with enough ArP.
Several questions regarding your specs and your results. The 0/19/52 spec you link has one point in KM. Why? It is pretty much useless since the only ability we use that takes advantage of it is IT. Why not pick up 1 point in subversion for 3% obliterate crit chance?

You say that 1/18/52 scales better with ArP, when in fact your DPS results show just the opposite.

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Old 10/06/09, 9:20 PM   #726
Kithus
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Vek'nilash
Originally Posted by Necromir View Post
Several questions regarding your specs and your results. The 0/19/52 spec you link has one point in KM. Why? It is pretty much useless since the only ability we use that takes advantage of it is IT. Why not pick up 1 point in subversion for 3% obliterate crit chance?

You say that 1/18/52 scales better with ArP, when in fact your DPS results show just the opposite.

I originally started with that 1 point in subversion. Then I moved it to KM just ot see and it sims as a substantial 40+ DPS increase. You're welcome to sim it the other way. I meant 0/19/52 scales better with AP, it was originally 1/18/52 until I thought to move that point out of subversion into KM. I just missed that one when I editted.

I tried this spec without ghoul frenzy it's an aweful DPS loss to lose frenzy.

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Old 10/06/09, 11:02 PM   #727
Grigori
Piston Honda
 
Grigori's Avatar
 
Human Paladin
 
Medivh
Originally Posted by Consider View Post
Doing an epidemic rotation (but still no reaping - this doesn't make reaping any better).
Not just not better, the new GoIT makes Reaping much worse. Currently, the primary DPS benefit of Reaping comes from the extra cast time it gives, which loses most of its value without the additional RP from GoIT.

Originally Posted by zagor View Post
That means we get a free gcd every 20sec, that's apotential DC through Revitalize or AMS. And that free gcd is not there when not using DnD.

Thinking about it, there's one "true" free gcd (because of DnD using one gcd and SS+BB use two gcds), and one "almost filled" gcd (if 40RP is used in first part, there's 75RP in second part - so only a bit away from DC through outside sources).
I have been running numbers for the "AE Mastery" 15-sec rotation 18/0/53 DW build I described briefly in my last post using the new 3.3 GoIT and the numbers look almost too good (or, in technical Blizzard terms, "feel lame"). For AE the advantages are obvious. You use more AE abilities; you are almost always near a Blood/Death rune to PE when adds spawn; you refresh Bone Shield without spending your BT.

Its AE rotation is also its single-target rotation and its single-target rotation can actually surpass conventional Unholy builds depending on a number of parameters (how long it gets to proc-roll, etc.), but there can be some add aggro issues with early tagging as mentioned in my last post. If you want to run this on live, you will want to change the glyph selection, of course.

15-sec rotation:

Initializing: BS>PS>IT>PE>DS>dc>DD
Repeating: BS>BB>BB>dc>PE>DS(>dc)>DD>dc

You can use Ghoul Frenzy every other rotation with a Death rune when not AEing, and Bone Shield every four rotations, also with a Death rune.

Edit: It is better to use the additional RP off the initializing sequence where the RP dump is in the repeating sequence (i.e., the (>dc)).

Last edited by Grigori : 10/07/09 at 12:33 PM. Reason: Better representation on initializing sequence

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Old 10/06/09, 11:09 PM   #728
Niightblade
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Frostmourne
Originally Posted by Bloody_sorcerer View Post
That's because rawr is displaying average stats, so things like Fallen Crusader and trinket procs are already taken into account. If the ability to export character stats from rawr to something the simulator can use (much like rawr.enhancement and the enhsim) is something people would like, I can look into incorporating it.
Yes please. Even just to be able to export gear-only stats would be helpful.

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Old 10/07/09, 12:46 AM   #729
Tima
Glass Joe
 
Tima's Avatar
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Silvermoon
Originally Posted by Kithus View Post
I originally started with that 1 point in subversion. Then I moved it to KM just ot see and it sims as a substantial 40+ DPS increase. You're welcome to sim it the other way. I meant 0/19/52 scales better with AP, it was originally 1/18/52 until I thought to move that point out of subversion into KM. I just missed that one when I editted.

I tried this spec without ghoul frenzy it's an aweful DPS loss to lose frenzy.
I'd like a mathematical reason why this would be. It makes no sense to me - as Necromir stated, 1 point in Subversion should easily out-dps 1 point in KM, considering that the only ability we have affected by KM is IT, and I can't see a chance at an IT crit increasing DPS by 40. Similarly, I don't see how GF would be such a huge DPS increase, since it's never been a DPS increase before, there's nothing in the spec that should make it sim higher, and there's nothing I've noticed in the patch notes that would explain it.

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Old 10/07/09, 5:51 AM   #730
Bensch78
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Zirkel des Cenarius (EU)
Oblit again?

I don´t buy that. And to prove this, i did the sims on my own again.

OLD IT-Glyph + 4PCT9 + 150ms:

Spec: 0-19-52 with Epidemic - Rotation: PS/GF-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 8494 DPS

Spec: 1-18-52 with Epidemic - Rotation: PS/GF-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 8476 DPS

Spec: 3-13-55 w/o Epidemic - Rotation: PS-IT-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 8468 DPS

Spec: 1-13-57 with Epidemic - Rotation: PS-IT-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC-SS-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 8436 DPS

Spec: 0-13-58 with Epidemic and GF - Rotation: PS/GF-IT-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 8498 DPS


NEW IT-Glyph + 4PCT9 + 150ms:

Spec: 0-19-52 with Epidemic - Rotation: PS/GF-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 8533 DPS

Spec: 1-18-52 with Epidemic - Rotation: PS/GF-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 8510 DPS

Spec: 3-13-55 w/o Epidemic - Rotation: PS-IT-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 8498 DPS

Spec: 1-13-57 with Epidemic - Rotation: PS-IT-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC-SS-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 8551 DPS

Spec: 0-13-58 with Epidemic and GF - Rotation: PS/GF-IT-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC - Latency:150ms - BoneShieldinsteadBS - 8531 DPS


Conclusions:

- 1 point in KM is more dmg than one point in Subversion for Oblit-Specs.
- Oblit does LESS dmg. (SS-Average ~ 5k -> Oblit-Average ~ 4k). You spare some points in Unholy, that would boost PS und SS, get 3% crit and 1 point in KM instead of Subversion, which is enough to close the gap.
- GF could be used in an SS-Rotation with epidemic, too. Actually GF is the reason, why that Oblit-Spec did more dmg than SS-Spec, because you have one sparepoint. GF is the only way to get some dmg out of this point.

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Old 10/07/09, 7:32 AM   #731
Rhuenin
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Kael'thas
Any DK Engineers out there? I'm already sold on the utility and cool factor of Engineering, but had some questions about the pve dps aspect. What experiences have you had with Hyperspeed Accelerators? Who well do they stack with Gargolye? Thanks.

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Old 10/07/09, 9:19 AM   #732
Ryûuk
Glass Joe
 
Ryûuk
Human Death Knight
 
Frostmourne
@Bensch78

Care to post these specs? I'd like to sim them for myself to see what I get.

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Old 10/07/09, 9:20 AM   #733
Kithus
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Vek'nilash
Originally Posted by Tima View Post
I'd like a mathematical reason why this would be. It makes no sense to me - as Necromir stated, 1 point in Subversion should easily out-dps 1 point in KM, considering that the only ability we have affected by KM is IT, and I can't see a chance at an IT crit increasing DPS by 40. Similarly, I don't see how GF would be such a huge DPS increase, since it's never been a DPS increase before, there's nothing in the spec that should make it sim higher, and there's nothing I've noticed in the patch notes that would explain it.
KM is a PPM affect and makes for a guarenteed IT crit on a semi regular interval. It isn't an increased chance, its a set number of crits. That said here is a sampling from the sim combat log of IT crits:

IT crit for 4314
IT crit for 5430
IT crit for 5188

OB crit for 5845

PS crit for 2871

BS crit for 3120


As you can see IT crits are substantial damage.

I want to apologize. In looking back over my spec I'd left points in Outbreak during some initial testing that should not be there. My newest tests concur with Bensch that 0/19/52 w/ 4PT9 and the new IT Glyph is 8533 DPS

That said I'm not sure what Bensch is using for his stat numbers and the gear set on the first page is for two handed unholy, so I built a gear set for DW Unholy:

Slot Alliance Horde
Helm [Frostforged Helm] [Frostforged Helm]
Amulet [The Executioner's Malice] [The Executioner's Vice]
Pauldrons [Thassarian's Shoulderplates of Triumph] [Koltira's Shoulderplates of Triumph]
Cloak Varian's Furor Garrosh's Rage
Breastplate [Thassarian's Battleplate of Triumph] [Koltira's Battleplate of Triumph]
Bracers [Boneshatter Armplates] [Boneshatter Vambraces]
Gloves [Thassarian's Gauntlets of Triumph] [Koltira's Gauntlets of Triumph]
Belt [Bloodbath Belt] [Bloodbath Girdle]
Legplates [Thassarian's Legplates of Triumph] [Koltira's Legplates of Triumph]
Boots [Greaves of the 7th Legion] [Greaves of the Saronite Citadel]
Ring [Band of the Violent Temperment] [Band of the Violent Temperment]
Ring [Carnivorous Band] [Carnivorous Band]
Trinket [Death's Verdict] [Death's Choice]
Trinket [Death's Verdict] [Death's Choice]
Mainhand [Remorseless] [Cudgel of the Damned]
Offhand [Lionhead Slasher] [Blood Fury]


Total Stats
<Strength>1765
<Agility>134
<AttackPower>704
<HitRating>324
<CritRating>792
<HasteRating>221
<ArmorPenetrationRating>255
<ExpertiseRating>185

Mainhand weapon: 216.5 DPS, 2.6 Speed
Offhand Weapon: 216.7 DPS, 1.5 Speed


Then I re-ran my sims with realistic stats:

FC/FC 150ms

0-19-52
Rotation: PS/GF-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC
Sigil: Virulence
Runes: FC/FC
Boneshield Instead of BS
Latency: 150ms
DPS 7614


1-13-57
Rotation: PS-IT-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC-SS-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC
Sigil: Virulence
Runes: FC/FC
Boneshield Instead of BS
Latency: 150ms
DPS 7639

FC/RI 150ms
0-19-52
Rotation: PS/GF-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC
Sigil: Virulence
Runes: FC/RI
Boneshield Instead of BS
Latency: 150ms
DPS 7622

FC/RI 100ms
1-13-57
Rotation: PS-IT-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC-SS-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC
Sigil: Virulence
Runes: FC/RI
Boneshield Instead of BS
Latency: 150ms
DPS 7645

0-19-52
Rotation: PS/GF-IT-OB-BS-BB-DC-DC
Sigil: Virulence
Runes: FC/RI
Boneshield Instead of BS
Latency: 100ms
DPS 7695


1-13-57
Rotation: PS-IT-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC-SS-SS-BS-BB-DC-DC
Sigil: Virulence
Runes: FC/RI
Boneshield Instead of BS
Latency: 100ms
DPS 7688


Conclusions:
-Razorice offhand is simming higher than FC for both specs, most likely due to the scaling with the new glyph of IT
-0/19/52 is more affected by latency due to the extra GCD used for GF/IT where 1/13/57 uses a single SS
-The specs are very similar, Ghoul Frenzy being the major style difference. Neither clearly stands out.

EDIT: New version of the sim is out. 0/19/52 with FC/RI at 150 ms now sims at 7704 and 1/13/57 is up to 7691. There is a just an ~3% difference in the critical strike rate shown for blood plague and frost fever as well as a slightly higher rate of wandering plague. It seems the sim is considering 4PT9 and Wandering plague melee special abilities for purposes of annihilation, though I'm not sure if it should be.

Last edited by Kithus : 10/07/09 at 2:52 PM.

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Old 10/07/09, 6:11 PM   #734
blitzseed
Von Kaiser
 
blitzseed's Avatar
 
Human Death Knight
 
Anvilmar
new PTR 3.3.0 update

# Scourge Strike: Redesigned. The base ability now deals 50% weapon damage plus an additional amount as physical damage. However, for each disease the death knight has on the target, the target will take additional shadow damage equal to 25% of the physical damage done.
# Unholy Blight: This talent now deals only 10% of Death Coil damage as a damage-over-time effect on the target.
#Death Knight Tier-9 4-Piece Bonus: This set bonus no longer grants Frost Fever a chance to be a critical strike. It still grants that possibility to Blood Plague.

-http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=20126978820&pageNo=1#1

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Old 10/07/09, 6:32 PM   #735
Jesabelle
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Hellscream
Deleted, previous poster beat me

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