Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 51

Larisroth · 11/18/09, 10:51 PM

Okay I went and found a few bugs in the spreadsheet that I was using to calculate the benefits of various glyphs and the results kind of surprised me a little bit.
For these calculations I'm using base run in the sim using short fights with the unholy 2H T9 profile and GoDD, GoIT and GotG, and then theorycrafting for the GoSS and the new mechanism for GoD.

GotG remains at 155 DPS value. This value isn't affected by set bonuses other than the 2PT9 and scales better than the other glyphs with Strength, and with haste, however it is the only glyph that doesn't scale with crit rating.
GoIT has about 132 DPS value, when measured with 18 disease ticks per minute for the standard rotation. This value will scale with melee crit due to wandering plague. (But needs about 21 ticks to beat the Ghoul).
GoDD has about a 132 DPS value, however it depends on how much extra runic power we can get, that value was for 9 DCs a minute.

The value of the GoSS and GoD glyphs comes through two source, firstly there's the extra damage from the extra DoT ticks. For the GoD it's pretty simple, you get 20 ticks per minute. For the GoSS the diseases run out the instant you're going to reapply them, so I assume you reapply before the tick 50% of the time and after the other 50%.
The other benefit is that you get to replace some disease reapplications with more SSs. For this reason both these glyphs get some additional benefit from the 4T9 and 2T10 set bonuses. This means that they scale with ArPen in addition to crit and strength

Glyph	No set	4T9	2T10	4T10
GoD	148	175	210	258
GoSS	120	121	141	145

Note: I'm just considering the set bonuses rather than changing the gear around (and the base numbers were measured using 2T9). The GoD rotation has 3 attacks less per minute (about 5%) so the proc rates for all melee trinkets etc are a little bit down. This doesn't have that much effect in general. More importantly the extra attacks are blood strikes a minute so the 2T9 bonus is up quite a bit less (15% vs 21% ish). I've assigned a 50 dps penalty for the first 3 situations for this reason, and a 10 dps penalty for the 4T10 value. (The GoD also pushes the value of the GoIT up to around 150 dps).

These would suggest that running GoD, GotG and GoIT probably makes sense for the majority of single target situations, at least initially.

Of course we'd have to simulate the situation once the sim is fully setup for all the 3.3 changes.

Grigori · 11/19/09, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Darkside

The stat weighting for weapon DPS is simply 14*(percent of damage that is white), since it takes 14 AP to get the equivalent on 1 white dps.

No. You are making the false assumption that the percentage of damage that is "white" is the same as the percentage of DPS delta per AP that is "white" ("white" in the sense of being accountable to weapon DPS).

To put this in perspective, if 22% of your DPS is "white" and 20% of your DPS delta per AP is "white," then your weapon DPS stat weight is off by 10% on top of intrinsic inaccuracies of the additive stat weight method.

♦ Darkside · 11/19/09, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Grigori

No. You are making the false assumption that the percentage of damage that is "white" is the same as the percentage of DPS delta per AP that is "white" ("white" in the sense of being accountable to weapon DPS).

To put this in perspective, if 22% of your DPS is "white" and 20% of your DPS delta per AP is "white," then your weapon DPS stat weight is off by 10% on top of intrinsic inaccuracies of the additive stat weight method.

I don't get what you are saying.

Let me explain this differently: If I get 14 AP, then my white DPS will go up by one, assuming my target has no armor and no other stats are involved. Similarly, if I the DPS stat on my weapon increases by one, my white DPS will increase by 1, again assuming no armor and other stats. Therefore, we can conclude that in the case of white damage, 1 weapon DPS is the equivalent of 14 AP. In other words, if damage was purely white, the stat weighting for weapon DPS would 14. Since we know that not all of our damage is directly the result from weapon swings, we must therefore multiply this value by the percent of our damage that is directly the result of the weapons DPS rating (our white hits+necrosis etc). This will give us exactly the stat weighting for weapon DPS.

Furthermore, I don't understand what you mean by "instrinsic inaccuracies in the additive stat weight method".

Grigori · 11/19/09, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Darkside

I don't get what you are saying.

Let me explain this differently: If I get 14 AP, then my white DPS will go up by one, assuming my target has no armor and no other stats are involved. Similarly, if I the DPS stat on my weapon increases by one, my white DPS will increase by 1, again assuming no armor and other stats. Therefore, we can conclude that in the case of white damage, 1 weapon DPS is the equivalent of 14 AP. In other words, if damage was purely white, the stat weighting for weapon DPS would 14. Since we know that not all of our damage is directly the result from weapon swings, we must therefore multiply this value by the percent of our damage that is directly the result of the weapons DPS rating (our white hits+necrosis etc). This will give us exactly the stat weighting for weapon DPS.

Furthermore, I don't understand what you mean by "instrinsic inaccuracies in the additive stat weight method".

Let's demonstrate the concept with a simplified 2-component system:

Auto: 1 DPS per weapon DPS + 1 DPS per 14 AP
Disease: 1 DPS per 7 AP

At 200 weapon DPS and 2800 AP:

Your DPS is 800 (400 from auto and 400 from disease).

50% DPS from auto
50% DPS from disease

Your DPS delta per AP is 3/14 (+1/14 DPS from auto and +1/7 DPS from disease).

~33.33% from auto
~66.67% from disease

To figure out the weapon DPS stat weight from the AP stat weight, you need to use the percentage of DPS delta per AP that is "white" (3/14 * 14 * 1/3 = 1), not the percentage of DPS that is "white" (3/14 * 14 * 1/2 = 1.5).

- - -

For your second question, I was referring to inaccuracies which arise from using an additive stat weight method on stats which are not strictly additive.

Starfox · 11/19/09, 1:23 PM

Originally Posted by Consider

Ebon Plague (/EM/CoE), Blood Presence, Bone Shield, Desolation, Two-Handed Weapon Spec, Ferocious Inspiration (/Paladin Equiv) all are double dipped, and thus affect the secondary effect.

0.75 x 1.13 x 1.15 x 1.02 x 1.05 x 1.04 x 1.03 = 1.118 modifier (relative to the damage of the physical strike).

After some testing on the PTR:
5% Desolation, 15% Blood Presence, 2% Bone Shield and 10% Black Ice are addtivie, just like balance druids where some damage modifiers are additive, no clue why.
So it is 0.25*3 * 1.13 * (1 +.15 +.05 +.02 ) * 1.04 = 1.0753 (1.1634 with black ice)
The weird thing is that Rage of Rivendare does not affect the shadowdamage :/

Nyth_ · 11/19/09, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by Starfox

After some testing on the PTR:
5% Desolation, 15% Blood Presence, 2% Bone Shield and 10% Black Ice are addtivie, just like balance druids where some damage modifiers are additive, no clue why.
So it is 0.25*3 * 1.13 * (1 +.15 +.05 +.02 ) * 1.04 = 1.0753 (1.1634 with black ice)
The weird thing is that Rage of Rivendare does not affect the shadowdamage :/

That seems quite odd, because it never worked that way as far as I know. It has always been multiplicative, also on previous PTR builds with scourge strike.

In previous occasions where coefficient calculation didn't add up, it usually turned out to either be the overlooking of a variable (like outbreak).

Larisroth · 11/19/09, 7:11 PM

As Grigori points out it's pretty obvious that you can't just do a straight conversion of weapon DPS to AP because there are attacks that don't use the weapon DPS in any form. However this is true of pretty much all stats. Strength is the only stat that actually applies to all our attacks (pets, diseases, spells, strikes), but even it doesn't apply to them all equally.

The use of AP as the baseline for relative stat values is actually an arbitrary choice, in some way DPS would make more sense. When you run EP values in the simulator it's actually using DPS deltas to estimate partial derivatives of DPS with respect to the various other stats. It does this by adding a fixed value of a stat to a given gear baseline and then rerunning the simulator. The value for AP is then used for determining the other values.

There are several important things to remember.

Firstly no stat is measured in a vacuum, the baseline is important. There are no attacks where the contribution of an individual stat can be directly inferred from a damage breakdown. If you understand the complete mechanics you might be able to look at a detailed enough log and calculate the contribution, but that is pretty impractical.

Secondly stats have varying sensitivity and influence on the event sequence. Things like AP, Weapon DPS, Strength ArPen, just change how much various attacks hit for, and so it is reasonably easy to estimate their value using the sim, and their weight will be consistent from run to run. Other stats like hit, haste and weapon speed however can greatly effect the sequence of events which can make it rather hard to estimate their value.

Perhaps, most importantly, the quality of the output EP values depend greatly on how good a simulator it is. Does it have the mechanics right? Is the situation its modeling reasonable?

ETA: FWIW, I hacked the simulator source to use the new GoD mechanics, and it confimed my estimate of the values of the different glyphs I mentioned in my last post were in the right ballpark.

Starfox · 11/20/09, 4:36 AM

Originally Posted by Nyth_

That seems quite odd, because it never worked that way as far as I know. It has always been multiplicative, also on previous PTR builds with scourge strike.

In previous occasions where coefficient calculation didn't add up, it usually turned out to either be the overlooking of a variable (like outbreak).

Yea I know, everybody just assumes multipilcativity with damage modifiers, but nobody ever goes on and tries it.
I did the same for balance druid when, you would be supprised how much '+x% damage' talents are actually additive

PTR Testing:
-Black Ice
-Desolation
-Outbreak
-Bone shield
This is just to show that RoR is not affecting the shadow damage

UP, 1h, FF+EP
09:50:33> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Physical. (540 Overkill)
09:50:33> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Shadow. (304 Overkill)
541 * 2*.25 *1.13 = 305.665

UP, 1h, BP+EP
09:55:27> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Physical. (530 Overkill)
09:55:27> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Shadow. (299 Overkill)
531 * 2*.25 *1.13 = 300.0

UP, 1h, FF+BP+EP
09:51:17> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Physical. (1285 Overkill) *
09:51:17> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Shadow. (1089 Overkill)
1286 * 3*.25 *1.13 = 1089.9

BP, 1h, FF+EP
09:52:58> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Physical. (620 Overkill)
09:52:59> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Shadow. (402 Overkill)
621 * 2*.25 *1.13*1.15 = 403.49

BP, 1h, BP+EP
09:53:47> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Physical. (636 Overkill)
09:53:48> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Shadow. (413 Overkill)
637 * 2*.25 *1.13*1.15 = 413.9

BP, 1h, FF+BP+EP
10:01:29> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Physical. (1482 Overkill) *
10:01:29> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Shadow. (1445 Overkill)
1483 * 3*.25 *1.13*1.15 = 1445.37

-Black Ice
-Bone shield
+Desolation
-Outbreak

This is to show that Desolation is additive with Blood Presence

UP, 1h, FF+BP+EP, Desolation
10:07:11> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Physical. (1334 Overkill) *
10:07:12> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Shadow. (1187 Overkill)
1335 * 3*.25  *1.13 *1.05 = 1187.98

BP, 1h, FF+BP+EP, Desolation
10:08:57> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Physical. (668 Overkill)
10:08:57> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Shadow. (679 Overkill)
667 * 3*.25  *1.13 *1.05 * 1.15 = 682.58
667 * 3*.25  *1.13 *1.20        = 678.34

-Black Ice
+Bone shield
-Desolation
-Outbreak

This is to show that Bone Shield is additive with Blood Presence

UP, 1h, FF+BP+EP, Bone shield
10:16:40> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Physical. (590 Overkill)
10:16:40> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Shadow. (510 Overkill)
591 * 3*.25  *1.13 *1.02 = 510.89

BP, 1h, FF+BP+EP, Bone shield
10:14:41> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Physical. (667 Overkill)
10:14:42> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Shadow. (662 Overkill)
668 * 3*.25  *1.13 *1.02 * 1.15 = 662.07
668 * 3*.25  *1.13 *1.17        = 664.37
To close really.

BP, 2h, FF+BP+EP, Bone shield
10:20:23> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Physical. (2550 Overkill) *
10:20:23> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Shadow. (2629 Overkill)
2551 * 3*.25 * 1.13 * 1.04 * 1.02 * 1.15 = 2637.4
2551 * 3*.25 * 1.13 * 1.04 * 1.17        = 2630.7

-Black Ice
+Bone shield
+Desolation
-Outbreak

This is to show that Desolation, Bone Shield and Blood Presence are additive

BP, 2h, FF+BP+EP, Bone shield, Desolation
10:23:08> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Physical. (1139 Overkill)
10:23:08> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Shadow. (1225 Overkill)
1140 * 3*.25 * 1.13 * 1.04 * 1.02 * 1.05 * 1.15 = 1237.557
1140 * 3*.25 * 1.13 * 1.04 * 1.22               = 1225.85

+Black Ice
-Bone shield
-Desolation
-Outbreak

This is to show that Black Ice and Blood Presence are additive

BP, 2h, FF+BP+EP
10:26:06> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Physical. (2708 Overkill) *
10:26:06> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Shadow. (2984 Overkill)
2709 * 3*.25 * 1.13 * 1.04 * 1.10 * 1.15 = 3020.46
2709 * 3*.25 * 1.13 * 1.04 * 1.25        = 2984.64

+Black Ice
+Bone shield
+Desolation
-Outbreak

This is to show that Black Ice, Desolation, Bone Shield and Blood Presence are additive

BP, 2h, FF+BP+EP, Bone shield, Desolation
10:27:55> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Physical. (2697 Overkill) *
10:27:55> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Shadow. (3138 Overkill)
2698 * 3*.25 * 1.13 * 1.04 * 1.02 * 1.05 * 1.10 * 1.15 = 3221.77
1140 * 3*.25 * 1.13 * 1.04 * 1.32                      = 3138.98

+Black Ice
-Bone shield
-Desolation
+Outbreak

Outbreak has no effect on the shadow damage

BP, 2h, FF+BP+EP
10:30:13> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Physical. (2946 Overkill) *
10:30:13> [Your] Scourge Strike hit [Ebon Knight's Training Dummy] 1 Shadow. (3246 Overkill)
2947* 3*.25 * 1.13 * 1.04 * 1.25 = 3246.86

Mortak · 11/20/09, 9:16 AM

Well its pretty obvious that RoR doesnt affect the shadowportion.
It says your spells and abilities, and the shadowdmg isnt either its a procc procced by the ability Scourge Strike, not an ability itself.

Gumibear · 11/20/09, 9:40 AM

It's not pretty obvious since Rage of Rivendare in the past has affected procs like [Bandit's Insignia].

Good information proving what is and isn't working with Scourge Strike.

• frmorrison · 11/20/09, 9:49 AM

Because of how SS is coded (it does the physical damage and based on if it hits and how much it hits for, it does a shadow damage proc), it seems RoR and Outbreak do not consider the shadow proc an ability.

That may be intended since from the logs given that SS is doing fine with RoR/Outbreak only working on physical damage.

Antiock · 11/20/09, 11:06 PM

This might be a dumb question, and I'm sorry if it's been discussed already and I missed it, but:

Has anyone tested the [Sigil of Awareness] with the new Scourge Strike? I'd be curious to know if it did any abusable double-dipping on the damage bonus.

• frmorrison · 11/21/09, 9:18 AM

Even if SoA was double dipping, it wouldn't be better than the 245 one for PvE. It could be good in PvP though.

Lujaar · 11/22/09, 1:19 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Because of how SS is coded (it does the physical damage and based on if it hits and how much it hits for, it does a shadow damage proc), it seems RoR and Outbreak do not consider the shadow proc an ability.

To clarify, do you mean that the shadow portion is calculated as if the physical portion didn't benefit from RoR/Outbreak, or just that the shadow portion doesn't double-dip?

Starfox · 11/22/09, 3:10 PM

Originally Posted by Lujaar

To clarify, do you mean that the shadow portion is calculated as if the physical portion didn't benefit from RoR/Outbreak, or just that the shadow portion doesn't double-dip?

Did you read my post just a few above?
I did some SS spaming on PTR to get exactly what affects the shadow damage (implementation in SimulationCraft), please just don't ignore it and ask just below it exactly what I posted.

Consider · 11/24/09, 10:47 AM

Experimenting with a new format for the front page utilizing the in-post linking and auto-generated content table one can do. Although it will take some tweaking to get the most of it, I think it has potential. Not sure if I like it or not. Looking for feedback to see if it's better or if people prefer the old style of headings/content table. If some people could drop me a PM (no need to clutter the thread) with their thoughts, it would be most appreciated.

Anyways, I can confirm those certain modifiers being additive in SS. It wasn't like that in previous PTR builds and it doesn't make any sense, but testing does show it to be true.

SoA does not appear to be double dipped.

Overflowd · 11/24/09, 5:42 PM

Has anyone tested the DW specs in 3.3 on the ptr? I've done some testing, and it seems like it doesn't keep up in single target dps, and aoe situations is just a little lower. Top crits for SS in 2h spec break 14k and SS in 2h break 9k.

RetributionV2 · 11/24/09, 7:42 PM

Just needing a little clarification on the information in the first post. I'm not sure if the edit isn't complete yet or this is just an error.

The most optimal spec will become 17/0/54. Taking 1-2 points out of Bladed Armor and putting them into Necrosis is a slight (literally 4-8) dps gain, but when you consider Bladed Armor easily pulls ahead on any fight with multiple targets, most would consider it the obvious choice. Still, Necrosis isn't necessarily wrong if you are trying to eke out each and every drop of single target dps you can.

In this spec, points are put into Reaping. The build has changed a lot since I last looked at it. However....

Why is Reaping no longer considered mandatory or, at the least, optional?
Reaping is a raw dps loss. No question. Epidemic at least has some upside in terms of AoE - Reaping is nothing but bad. Two Blood Strikes outdamage a single Scourge Strike at most gear levels, thus you lose dps speccing into Reaping as opposed to just not spending three talent points. That's the dictionary definition of a wasted talent.
Even at gear levels where Scourge Strike will still out damage Blood Strike, you still gain more dps by spending those three points in Bladed Armor and/or Dark Conviction.

I've been taking the build from before apart and putting it back together again, just to see how it ticks, y'know?
I come back to take one more look at it out of game and find that it has changed and there are points in Reaping, which has been stated as a raw dps loss.

• frmorrison · 11/24/09, 7:49 PM

It is a little confusing because this thread is basically the 3.3 Unholy thread, however the first sentence does say "will become" but it doesn't say 3.3 there.

For 3.2 do not get reaping or epidemic since that is for 3.3 when SS changes. The proper 3.2 build is in the middle of the post, 16/0/55.

Consider · 11/24/09, 7:53 PM

Those two statements are from two totally separate sections of the OP, one labeled for 3.3.0 and one labeled for 3.2.2. Reaping will be worth it because of the massive (50%+) buff to Scourge Strike. Until that time, however, it's not. I'm not sure how much clear I could make it.

There is no error... except, possibly, in your ability to read section headings!

As to Unholy DW builds, yes, comparatively speaking, they will be substantially (5-10% behind) the 2H counterpart in 3.3. This isn't because DW is getting nerfed - it's getting slightly buffed, actually - but because the magnitude of its buff is much, much less than that which 2H is receiving. It's simply a matter of relativity.

Edit:

It is a little confusing because this thread is basically the 3.3 Unholy thread, however the first sentence does say "will become" but it doesn't say 3.3 there.

But, it does. It's in the "Upcoming Changes" section. It's under the "3.3 Spec" subheading. Not sure how much clearly I could differentiate it, although if it's honestly confusing/misleading, any ideas are more than welcome.

Knaledge · 11/30/09, 5:55 PM

Any chance the rotation for AoE could be updated to reflect your thoughts for 3.3? I've been sticking with the 3.2.x AoE rotation (one very close to what you list here under 3.2.2 AoE rotation).

It seems you indicated the rotation for single target under 3.3 and did not also include AoE rotation - so I am thinking either that means nothing has changed/will change, or it was not included either accidentally or for some other reason.

n_tassitano · 11/30/09, 6:36 PM

Is there a point in UH spec when you reach a certain AP and it benefits you more to equip arm pen gems instead of strength for a superior overall dps?

Diablerotz · 11/30/09, 7:07 PM

I think not, because diseases dont scale with ArP, neither Gargoyle... maybe stays equals at single target fights. Sorry but i have no numbers, only feelings.

Diseases dont scale with ArP.
Fallen Crusader dont scale with ArP.
Talents that increase our STR dont scale with ArP.

I was playing warrior, warrior damage is completely physical and yet gemming ArP only bring slight buff after a lot of ArP from gear.

Clandestine · 11/30/09, 9:15 PM

Originally Posted by n_tassitano

Is there a point in UH spec when you reach a certain AP and it benefits you more to equip arm pen gems instead of strength for a superior overall dps?

No, strength is always the best DPS stat after you're melee hit capped.

Eighte · 11/30/09, 9:33 PM

Is the rotation on the first page still the rotation to use for Unholy DK's currently, both single target & aoe?