Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 55

Bensch78 · 10/09/09, 9:23 AM

Originally Posted by Drexxi80

I did a few sims, too. The only reason, why no-Reaping in 3.3 does more dmg ist 2PCT9. by a very small margin. If you get 2PCT10 reaping will be a must have again.

And we don´t really know the new fix dmg number added to the 50% weapon dmg. Looking at the Functions Afabar showed he does not even take any fix number. (Looking at the Second Line of his function for SS)

Adding a number there will boost the dmg of SS again. You will for sure take reaping again in 3.3.

diospadre · 10/09/09, 10:09 AM

Here's hoping those numbers don't hold up, it was very nice having a number of stats that scaled well.

Fugazor · 10/09/09, 10:47 AM

It is a big question now how will shadow part of damage implemented. Will it be "out" as one strike or two strikes? If it will go out in two strikes will shadow part get all damage talents again?

2h spec, Black Ice, Outbreak, Desolation, Blood Presence, EP and RoR (assuming 30% mitigation):

Case 1: Two strikes, all talents:
x = 50% * 0.7 * 1.04 * 1.2 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1
y = x * 0.75 * 1.04 * 1.2 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.13 * 1.1
PTR SS = x + y = 147.68%

Case 2: Two strikes, no Outbreak, no 2h spec on shadow part:
x = 50% * 0.7 * 1.04 * 1.2 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1
y = x * 0.75 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.13 * 1.1
PTR SS = x + y = 129.86%

Case 3: Two strikes, no Outbreak, no 2h spec, no Black Ice on shadow part:
x = 50% * 0.7 * 1.04 * 1.2 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1
y = x * 0.75 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.13
PTR SS = x + y = 123.33%

Case 3 makes most sense to me, that means shadow portion won't get affected by 2h spec and Outbreak and we won't take Black Ice and go 12-17 points into Blood instead. So following...

PTR SS weapon damage = (50% * 0.7 * 1.04 * 1.2 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1) + ((50% * 0.7 * 1.04 * 1.2 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1) * 0.75 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.13) = 123.33%
PTR SS fixed damage = (317.5 * 0.7 * 1.04 * 1.2 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1) + ((317.5 * 0.7 * 1.04 * 1.2 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1) * 0.75 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.13) = 783.13
PTR SS = 123.33% + 783.13

BI Live SS weapon damage = 40% * 1.3 * 1.04 * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.13 * 1.1 = 107.14%
BI Live SS fixed damage = 317.5 * 1.3 * 1.04 * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.13 * 1.1 = 850.46
BI Live SS = 107.14% + 850.46

Live SS weapon damage = 40% * 1.3 * 1.04 * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.13 = 97.4%
Live SS fixed damage = 317.5 * 1.3 * 1.04 * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.13 = 773.14
Live SS = 97.4% + 773.14 (no Black Ice)

Live OB weapon damage = 80% * 0.7 * 1.375 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.2 = 122.73%
Live OB fixed damage = 467.2 * 0.7 * 1.375 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.2 = 716.75
Live OB = 122.73% + 716.75 (glyphed, no 2h spec)

Live BS weapon damage = 40% * 0.7 * 1.375 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.04 = 53.18%
Live BS fixed damage = 305.6 * 0.7 * 1.37500 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.04 = 406.32
Live BS = 53.18% + 487.58
Two BS = 106.36% + 812.64

TLDR:
PTR SS = 123.33% + 783.13 (12+/00/54)
BI Live SS = 107.14% + 850.46 (07/10/54)
Live SS = 97.4% + 773.14 (12+/00/54+)
Live OB = 122.73% + 716.75 (glyphed, 00/10+/54+)
Two BS = 106.36% + 812.64 (12+/00/54)

Reaping may be useful again after all, especially seeing 2xT10 bonus that bumps SS another 10% up to (probably) 135.66% + 861.45 (in comparison OB goes to 135% + 788.42).

EDIT: PvP bonus! BP, Black Ice, no 2h spec.

60% mitigation (plate + shield)
- 3 diseases up
Live: 103.02% + 817.75
PTR: 67.76% + 430.29
OB: 70.13% + 409.57
- no diseases
Live: 79.25% + 629.04
PTR: 31.88% + 202.42
OB: 51% + 297.87

50% mitigation (plate, mail + shield)
- 3 diseases up
Live: 103.02% + 817.75
PTR: 84.7% + 537.87
OB: 87.66% + 511.96
- no diseases
Live: 79.25% + 629.04
PTR: 39.85% + 253.03
OB: 63.76% + 372.34

40% mitigation (mail)
- 3 diseases up
Live: 103.02% + 817.75
PTR: 101.64% + 645.44
OB: 105.2% + 614.35
- no diseases
Live: 79.25% + 629.04
PTR: 47.82% + 303.64
OB: 76.51% + 446.8

30% mitigation (leather)
- 3 diseases up
Live: 103.02% + 817.75
PTR: 118.58% + 753.01
OB: 122.73% + 716.75
- no diseases
Live: 79.25% + 629.04
PTR: 55.79% + 354.24
OB: 89.26% + 521.27

Nerf on anything above leather. If your diseases are dispelled SS becomes junk. Worst of all OB outperforms new SS on every type of armor with diseases and obliterates

new SS on targets without diseases.

Sulika · 10/09/09, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Bensch78

The shadowpart will be 25% times the number of diseases times the actual physical dmg before mitigation times multipliers, that only apply to magical dmg. (only EP and BI)

Looking like this:

Shadow SS Component = Physical SS Component x 0.25 x 3 x 1.13 (EP) x 1.1 (BI)

I just think it will be that easy.

If you get a hit for 1000 physical, the shadow component will be 847.5 (with EP only) or 932.25 (with BI)

If you get a crit for 2000 physical dmg, the shadow component will be 1695 (with EP only) or 1864.5 (with BI)

Couldn't they achieve much the same just by making Scourge Strike modified by armor but with an inherent 50% armor penetration (or whatever the correct number would be).

Something like:

Scourge Strike: An attack which does 80% weapon damage plus 12.5% for each of your diseases on the target. Scourge Strike ignores 50% of the targets armor.

The numbers are wrong but it would read much cleaner and achieves pretty much the same end result. Instead of having two parts, one which ignores all armor and one which ignores none just make one part that ignores 50% of armor and be done with it.

Bensch78 · 10/09/09, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Sulika

Couldn't they achieve much the same just by making Scourge Strike modified by armor but with an inherent 50% armor penetration (or whatever the correct number would be).

Something like:

Scourge Strike: An attack which does 80% weapon damage plus 12.5% for each of your diseases on the target. Scourge Strike ignores 50% of the targets armor.

The numbers are wrong but it would read much cleaner and achieves pretty much the same end result. Instead of having two parts, one which ignores all armor and one which ignores none just make one part that ignores 50% of armor and be done with it.

Then it could not be a shadow attack. It would just be a physical attack, bypassing halve of the dmg reduction through armor. (not half of the armor). But Blizzard wants to have some part of it as shadow dmg.

Foxx2405 · 10/09/09, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Fugazor

It is a big question now how will shadow part of damage implemented. Will it be "out" as one strike or two strikes? If it will go out in two strikes will shadow part get all damage talents again?

2h spec, Black Ice, Outbreak, Desolation, Blood Presence, EP and RoR (assuming 30% mitigation):

Case 1: Two strikes, all talents:
x = 50% * 0.7 * 1.04 * 1.2 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1
y = x * 0.75 * 1.04 * 1.2 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.13 * 1.1
PTR SS = x + y = 147.68%

Case 2: Two strikes, no Outbreak, no 2h spec on shadow part:
x = 50% * 0.7 * 1.04 * 1.2 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1
y = x * 0.75 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.13 * 1.1
PTR SS = x + y = 129.86%

Case 3: Two strikes, no Outbreak, no 2h spec, no Black Ice on shadow part:
x = 50% * 0.7 * 1.04 * 1.2 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1
y = x * 0.75 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.13
PTR SS = x + y = 123.33%

<SNIP>

Unless I"m misinterpreting you're having it double dip on bonuses.
That would be super awesome, but unrealistic. We know how blizzard feels about double dipping (like necrosis did).

(I say this because you have all multipliers affect X and then have them all affected again on y

My guess is that it is case 4:
x = 50%
y = x * 0.75 * 1.13
PTR SS = (x * 0.7 + y) * 1.04 * 1.2 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1

The most logical solution for this is that:
Blood Plague / Bone Shield / Blood Presence / Outbreak / Rage of Rivendare all apply to BOTH components of the strike
Ebon Plaguebringer and Black Ice should only affect the shadow part (as do all other spell debuff/buffs)
Armor Reduction should only affect the physical part.

The simplest way to explain this way of calculating the strike is with a diamond shape:

 
    A
   / \
  B   C
   \ /
    D

Where A is the actual strike. Which is 50% of your weapon damage + AP/14*3.3

After A it gets split up into 2 parts, both use A as a base to calculate the strike in 2 segments

B is the physical part, here the strike damage gets reduced by armor, and all physical only modifiers are applied (I don't think this is anything other than armor reduction)

C is the shadow damage part, here the strike damage gets all the spell modifiers, like partial resists, ebon plaguebringer, black ice.

After B and C they come together again, to apply the global modifiers

D is the global modifier part, here everything that affects scourge strike as a whole is applied.
Critical hits (that way the whole strike crits and not half of it), Bone Shield, Blood Plague, Rage of Rivendare, Outbreak, 2H spec.

All of the modifiers mentioned at D should affect scourge strike as a whole and not just 1 component of it.

This, although a somewhat complex setup at first sight, would be the best balanced and best to control and balance setup.
If something is too strong they can tweak the numbers at B and C without having them affect eachother.

Again this can't be confirmed until the PTR works, but this agrees with both the wording in the patchnotes and ghostcrawlers comments.

I'm also pretty convinced that the shadow component will still be seen as a melee attack. One that dips into the spell talents, but still takes crit ratings etc from melee. (just like the old scourge strike).

slant · 10/09/09, 2:08 PM

Clarification from the blizzard forums. The shadow damage portion is indeed calculated based upon armor-mitigated physical damage done and can independently crit. This will likely have other implications when attacking targets with damage shields, which largely impacts PvP.

The Shadow damage will be less if the physical part strikes for less. We took that into consideration when coming up with the numbers. On the other hand, the Shadow damage will strike for more if you have all of the talents that prop up Shadow damage, and that part can crit separately.

From many reports it appears that the Scourge Strike on the PTR isn't working correctly, so most of what we are getting back right now are theorycrafted numbers, and some of those are wildly off. Let's get the ability working correctly and then the community can have another go at it. We're totally open to shifting some more damage from Shadow to physical. We're not open to titanic Scourge strike crits again, given that Unholy DKs already do so much damage from diseases and magic.

The goal is for it to beat out two Blood Strikes or Obliterate.

Jesabelle · 10/09/09, 2:18 PM

Ugh, they need to get a new PTR patch so we can do some real testing. Here's the latest info from GC:

The Shadow damage will be less if the physical part strikes for less. We took that into consideration when coming up with the numbers. On the other hand, the Shadow damage will strike for more if you have all of the talents that prop up Shadow damage, and that part can crit separately.

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - New Scourge Strike

He goes on to say more (including the goal is to make it so it's better than obliterate and 2 blood strikes), but the guessing game is getting kinda crazy here.

Kithus · 10/09/09, 3:51 PM

Note I do not know the bonus damage of the new Scourge Strike. I'm using the old bonus damage until I can find out.

The Shadow damage will be less if the physical part strikes for less.

So the whole damage of the strike before talents is:

(50% + 317.5) * (1 + .75D) * 1/M

Where D is the number of diseases on the target and M is the damage mitigation from armor.

On the other hand, the Shadow damage will strike for more if you have all of the talents that prop up Shadow damage

With talents (Outbreak, Ebon Plague, Black Ice) and assuming 3 diseases up:

(50% + 317.5) * 1.2 =

60% + 381 Physical

(60% + 381) * 1.13 * 1.1 * .75 =

55.9% + 355.2 Shadow

115.9% + 702.7 Total before armor mitigation

and that part can crit separately

This is where things get interesting. Since we know the shadow damage is based on the physical damage that seems to suggest that the physical hit can crit, thus increasing the shadow damage that can also crit:

(60% + 381) * 2 =
120% + 762 Physical Crit

(120% + 762) * 1.13 * 1.1 * .75 * 2=

224% + 1420.7 Shadow Crit (after physical crit)

344% + 2182.7 Total Double Crit

If this is the case then crit is going to become a more valueable unholy stat. It also seems to meet the stated design goal:

The goal is for it to beat out two Blood Strikes or Obliterate

Though it doesn't seem to jive with this one:

We're not open to titanic Scourge strike crits again

Elemak · 10/09/09, 4:25 PM

They've said that they don't want the "titanic Scourge Strike crits", but they still want Scourge Strike to be more worthwhile than two blood strikes or an obliterate.
It seems like the most obvious way to accomplish this would be to have Scourge Strike do more damage, but not all at once; have it do physical damage roughly equivalent to that of Obliterate then apply Unholy Blight just like Death Coil.

Foxx2405 · 10/09/09, 4:51 PM

I'm pretty certain they will be putting restrictions on the shadow part.

Double dipping from buffs and double dipping from crits is something blizzard is strongly against. With good reason as it totally tosses balance off.

I mean an attack that hits for 4k but crits for 12k is not something they are very fond off.

My guess is that shadow only gets the added benefit of EPB and Black Ice.
And that the crits on the shadow part are somehow based on the non-crit damage of the physical part.

It would be cool if it did double dip crit though, it would give SS some spunk.

Also you're off on a few things;
1. "(50% + 317.5) * (1 + .75D) * 1/M" ; i assume you mean .25D instead.
2. Scourge Strike crits for 230%, not 200%.

Including black ice depends as well, pvp specs have it. But PvE specs (2H) don't. Dual Wield most likely won't be as viable with us depending more on strike damage again.

Chardys · 10/09/09, 5:19 PM

Putting together everything we've heard Bliz say, this is my interpretation of how the new SS will work:

1. Calculate base physical portion from weapon damage + flat amount, mitigated by armor, multiplied by any talents that affect "all damage" or "Scourge Strike damage."
2. Base shadow portion = (25% * # of diseases * base physical portion)
3. Non-crit physical portion = base physical portion, modified by any effects (talents or debuffs on target) that affect only physical damage
4. Non-crit shadow portion = base shadow portion, modified by any effects (talents or debuffs on target) that affect only magical/shadow damage
5. Determine whether physical portion crits, based on SS crit chance and any effects modifying physical crit chance. If so, multiply by 230% for crit damage.
6. Determine whether shadow portion crits, based on SS crit chance and any effects modifying magical/shadow crit chance. If so, multiply by 230% for crit damage.
7. Apply both sources of damage to the enemy.

Now, nothing says I'm correct here. This is just my best guess as to how Bliz intends it to work, as it avoids any double-dipping and matches the rest of what they've said. Whether I've interpreted it correctly or it's even programmed correctly, we'll have to wait and see.

qae · 10/09/09, 10:44 PM

The Shadow damage will be less if the physical part strikes for less.

If this is true then it seems to me that the whole strike is mitgated by armor.. and the Shadow part is indeed mostly a flavor thing.

In fact.. there is NO unmitigated part of it.. the shadow part just happen to be mitigated by armor (from the physical part) and by magic resistance.

But again.. We will have to wait until we have a working version to test.

ShinKosh · 10/10/09, 7:26 AM

My concern right now is how they seem to be balancing Scourge Strike for a raid environment, assuming the target has only 30% physical damage reduction.

In a PvP setting, when some players have around 50%-60% physical damage reduction due to armour this new Scrounge Strike is looking pretty weak. You then stack that on top of having to defeat their resilience twice for this mythical double crit (even if it doesn’t stack, x2 on the physical so x4 on the shadow) to let the new Scourge Strike hit for a full effect, you then have to weigh up how much armour pen you need to make the 50% strike effective, then look at spell pen to make the shadow strike effective.

For a raid setting sure, looks nice. For a PvP setting I'm sceptical. This idea that the flavour part of the strike is based on the mitigated damage of the physical part for a spec that has never looked into any sort of armour penetration seems a little out of it.

Foxx2405 · 10/10/09, 8:28 AM

Yea this setup seems quite weak to be honest (I think the parallel setup me and Bensch talked about is better).

Someone already calculated that this Scourge Strike is going to be extremely dodgy in a PvP environment, something like:

Physical / Shadow
Hit / Hit = worse than hit in 3.2.2
Hit / Crit = equal to a hit in 3.2.2
Crit / Hit = better than a hit, worse than a crit
Crit / Crit = equal to a crit in 3.2.2

I really can't see any way they can have this double dip on crit. It would create an extremely random attack that either under performs enormously, or does insane damage if the dice rolls right.
That sounds to me like a fun ability (like the old shaman 2H windfury), but at the same time it sounds impossible to balance.

So keeping that in mind, it seems very unlikely that the shadow portion of the damage can double dip crit.
If you assume that it can not double dip crit though, you get a pretty weak attack.