Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 59

NeuroMedivh · 10/14/09, 4:00 PM

Nah, I understand the function. Necrosis doesn't double-dip because that would make it better than they want it. Scourge Strike is allowed to Double Dip because they want SS doing approximately that much damage, at least right now. They'll probably change it again once we figure out how to maximize it.

Does this significantly change the value of +crit for us?

pheonix1358 · 10/14/09, 5:11 PM

Topic says it all basically. With the new SS changes to 50% wpn dmg and the added shadow dmg based off wpn damage I'm guessing that every DK out there will be having to switch to 2h if they want to stay top dps. No?

The only benefit I could see staying DW would be speccing into Black Ice and hoping that 10% inc shadow damage would greatly affect our SS shadow dmg? Thoughts and comments greatly appreciated, I'd hate to spec out of DW Unholy just b/c SS is getting such a massive boost to it's overall dmg.

Mericet · 10/14/09, 6:02 PM

If the end result of these changes are that epidemic and reaping are significant DPS increases (and blizzard has explicitly stated that this is the case), then I don't see how dual-wield builds would not fall behind. Right now the two specs are about even, and this change (along with the icy touch glyph change) will improve 2h a lot more than DW. It will only get worse in t10, assuming the 2-piece set bonus makes it live, since that will once again strongly favor scourge strike heavy builds. That's not to say DW builds will completely cease be somewhat viable - none of this is a direct nerf to it - it will just run into scaling problems. How much of an impact those scaling issues will be, and when they'll really kick in, is yet to be seen.

Larisroth · 10/14/09, 6:44 PM

Yeah. I think that's a fairly safe assumption. I'm currently running a GoD build which is naturally rather SS heavy. For that, DW and 2H simulate close to each other. The increased strike damage in the 2H build offset mostly with increased auto-attack damage in the DW build. The only changes I'm likely to take for 3.3 would be to pickup reaping.

While it will obviously depend a little bit on the balance of the weapon damage coefficient to static portion, even a moderate 20% overall buff to SS is likely to be a 50 dps boost in favour of the 2H spec.

I don't think black-ice is likely to save the situation, even my DW builds already take the blood tree over the frost tree, and the portion of magic damage we're going to do is definitely going to drop.

All of the talents that will apply to the new strike can also be taken in 2H builds, and because the 2H version is going to hit harder, they will be bigger dps gains for it.

The one thing I can think of that could make a SS using DW build work would be if they added a shadow version of razor-ice.

Consider · 10/14/09, 6:45 PM

Some simple math, for the time being. Should give people a rough idea until the sim is updated or what have you.

I assume Black Ice still isn't taken because, if anything, this actually makes BI worse (as the shadow portion of the new SS won't out damage the entirety of the current SS). I also assume the shadow portion of SS is not affected by 2H specialization, as it appears as if it shouldn't be. Last, but not least, I assume the second portion shouldn't be affected by impurity in the fashion it is (reportedly) being affected by it on the PTR.

Damage the shadow portion deals relative to the physical portion:
0.75 (base) x 1.15 (Blood Presence) x 1.1 (Rage of Rivendare) x 1.05 (Desolation) x 1.02 (Bone Shield) x 1.13 (Ebon Plague) x 1.20 (Outbreak) x 1.03 (Ferocious Inspiration) = 1.41918226.

So, if the physical portion does 4000 damage (which is, approximately, what it should deal in current level gear with appropriate raid buffs, as shown by one's average PS hit. It would actually be somewhat higher, but regardless, 4000 is a nice easy number to work with), then the shadow portion will deal 4000 x 1.41918226 = 5676. That means one SS, on average, would deal about 9700 damage. And this is ignoring the second part being able to crit. And this is rounding down the damage the physical portion would probably deal.

In other words, this is an underestimation, if anything.

That's about a 2700 damage increase over the current SS. Which is almost enough (and probably will be enough after 4p t9 is nerfed/dropped, and if you actually did the 'real' math) to push Reaping over the top. Especially when you factor in 2p t10 and 4p t10, both of which are fantastic if this double dips into them.

I would put my money on 11/0/60 being the build to be.

Also, even ignoring Reaping, this easily covers the UB nerf (and then some). Our dps, even if we didn't change specs/rotations, would go up.

Edit: One question this leaves open is how the new SS is affected by SoA. Even with a 'normal' rotation of 4 SS per 20 seconds, it would still take a lot for SoA to be superior to SoV (or to the new Sigil), but if it double dipped, it could be a possibility.

Devloc · 10/14/09, 9:04 PM

Originally Posted by Consider

Edit: One question this leaves open is how the new SS is affected by SoA. Even with a 'normal' rotation of 4 SS per 20 seconds, it would still take a lot for SoA to be superior to SoV (or to the new Sigil), but if it double dipped, it could be a possibility.

It could be that is only affects the Shadow portion, and that was difficult for me to decipher due to the wide range of damage it delievers, but from some fooling around on the PTR it appeared to me that the sigil is currently broken and does nothing. Wouldn't surprise me, given the change to the skill.

• frmorrison · 10/14/09, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by Larisroth

The one thing I can think of that could make a SS using DW build work would be if they added a shadow version of razor-ice.

Don't hold your breath. Blizzard only likes having one DW tree.

qae · 10/15/09, 1:23 AM

Only the physical damage can be reduced. The Shadow damage can only be buffed, since it is essentially already reduced by the physical mitigation, resilience or other defensive effects.

This was quoted from a blue post. However I saw on the screenshots Puppi posted yesterday that the shadow part do get partial resists on the "Boss" target dummy.
I believe it could be a non-issue in PvE. After all, spell dmg is mitigated for everyone on bosses, and the current / live version of SS is no exception.

I'm not sure if anyone on Ptr already got to test it in PvPsituations, but I would like to know if the shadow part get mitigated by magic resistance / -spell dmg talents. I'm afraid it will but the blue poster I quoted above kind of confused me a little.

Jackinthegreen · 10/15/09, 3:58 AM

Originally Posted by Consider

I would put my money on 11/0/60 being the build to be, although 0/10/61 is a possibility.

How would we put 61 points into Unholy? The base would be 0/0/60, and that leaves only a few talents open.. Of those only Corpse Explosion and Imp Unholy would have a DPS gain... As good as the extra movement is, wouldn't Subversion perhaps be better? If the shadow part of SS can crit separately, couldn't a case be made for Sub instead of IUP?

For the heck of it, I did some crunching on Black Ice From your calculations it would go up to 1.5611 times the physical portion, or in the example 6244 for a total of 10244 or so. This looks to come out to a 4% or so increase to SS alone.

One last question we might need to confirm is whether SS could potentially double dip from the crit bonus from Vicious Strikes in a future build. Although unlikely, it might come out to be that given the shadow part should crit by itself, it may also get another bonus should it and the physical strike crit. If that's the case then 3/8/60 could have some strong results.

Prejac · 10/15/09, 4:43 AM

Originally Posted by Jackinthegreen

How would we put 61 points into Unholy? The base would be 0/0/60

I believe the 61 points would include Ghoul Frenzy.

Jackinthegreen · 10/15/09, 4:56 AM

Originally Posted by Prejac

I believe the 61 points would include Ghoul Frenzy.

GF would be a loss (or at the very least would screw up a rotation) for us as it would prevent the use of a third SS, which by the looks of it is what we will be shooting for since it will do more damage than PS+IT and hopefully 2x BS as well. This would put it along the line with Frost's typical rotation of

IT-PS-BS-(FU)-BS-Dump
(FU)-(FU)-(FU)-Dump

Where (FU) is the spec's main Frost/Unholy rune combo. The reason for a BS before the first SS is to proc Desolation.

Bensch78 · 10/15/09, 5:03 AM

Originally Posted by Consider

Some simple math, for the time being. Should give people a rough idea until the sim is updated or what have you.

I assume Black Ice still isn't taken because, if anything, this actually makes BI worse (as the shadow portion of the new SS won't out damage the entirety of the current SS). I also assume the shadow portion of SS is not affected by 2H specialization, as it appears as if it shouldn't be. Last, but not least, I assume the second portion shouldn't be affected by impurity in the fashion it is (reportedly) being affected by it on the PTR.

Damage the shadow portion deals relative to the physical portion:
0.75 (base) x 1.15 (Blood Presence) x 1.1 (Rage of Rivendare) x 1.05 (Desolation) x 1.02 (Bone Shield) x 1.13 (Ebon Plague) x 1.20 (Outbreak) x 1.03 (Ferocious Inspiration) = 1.41918226.

So, if the physical portion does 4000 damage (which is, approximately, what it should deal in current level gear with appropriate raid buffs, as shown by one's average PS hit. It would actually be somewhat higher, but regardless, 4000 is a nice easy number to work with), then the shadow portion will deal 4000 x 1.41918226 = 5676. That means one SS, on average, would deal about 9700 damage. And this is ignoring the second part being able to crit. And this is rounding down the damage the physical portion would probably deal.

In other words, this is an underestimation, if anything.

That's about a 2700 damage increase over the current SS. Which is almost enough (and probably will be enough after 4p t9 is nerfed/dropped, and if you actually did the 'real' math) to push Reaping over the top. Especially when you factor in 2p t10 and 4p t10, both of which are fantastic if this double dips into them.

I would put my money on 11/0/60 being the build to be, although 0/10/61 is a possibility.

Also, even ignoring Reaping, this easily covers the UB nerf (and then some). Our dps, even if we didn't change specs/rotations, would go up.

Edit: One question this leaves open is how the new SS is affected by SoA. Even with a 'normal' rotation of 4 SS per 20 seconds, it would still take a lot for SoA to be superior to SoV (or to the new Sigil), but if it double dipped, it could be a possibility.

I think you are calculating to much in our favour, Consider.

As GC mentioned in this post the shadow part will just be raised by all things, that buff Shadow-Dmg.

So i think you have to take out Outbreak and Rage of Rivendare.

4000 Physical will be (4000x0.75x1.15x1.05x1.02x1.13x1.03) = 4300

Looking at Puupi´s Numbers: Screenshots

He did a 4400 physical crit and (4133 + 406) = 4539 shadow damage.

4400 Physical (crit) will be 4730 Shadow Damage, but he misses Ferocious Inspiration, so it will be 4730 / 1.03 = 4592 shadow damage.

There is only a little difference in the numbers. ( Actually 53 Damage) But this differnce could result from the partial resist.

But looking at his Screenshot, there is another Scourge-Strike listed:

And now look at this numbers:

4356 Physical (crit)

he did 4547 shadow damage

my calcs would result in (4356x0.75x1.15x1.05x1.02x1.13) = 4546,89 Damage

He did 4547 shadow damage and i would calculate 4546,89.

NeuroMedivh · 10/15/09, 5:28 AM

In that screenshot, we also have the following:

4372 Physical Hit (crit)

6346 Shadow hit (crit) (404 resisted)

If we take Bensch's numbers above (0.75x1.15x1.05x1.02x1.13) we get 1.0438

If Multiply 4372x1.0438x2(crit) we get 9127 and change, which is far higher than actual results.

But if you take our 1.0438 Shadow Multiplier, and simply ADD a 50% crit bonus to it, we get:

4372x1.5438 = 6749.5957955, rounded up to 6750. Which is exactly what the crit was, when you add in the resist.

Needs more testing than simply one hit, but my current hypothesis is that the crit on the shadow is simply a straight +50% of whatever the physical was, without any other bonuses (which is doubly wrong, as it should be 100%, and it should be affected by talents).

Jonneh · 10/15/09, 6:02 AM

After hitting the boss dummy a little, I still can't come close to guessing which talents etc affect the new SS.

Using this ptr spec: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...LjXV,FQp,10571

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Hope these numbers can help someone elses theory crafting. At the very least it re-confirms the 150% crit and spell crit bugs, which probably mean we should all wait until the next build to put too much effort into analysing whats going on

NeuroMedivh · 10/15/09, 7:08 AM

Here is a set of data from the PTR, using the premade DK in a standard 14/0/57 build (no reaping). I made very sure that Bone Shield, Desolation, and all three diseases were up every time I hit SS. I've broken the table into four parts: Non-shadow crits with no resists, Non-shadow crits with partial resists, Shadow crits with no resists, and Shadow Crits with partial resists. For the non-crits, I added in the expected 1.0438 result (rounded off).

SS Physical	SS Shadow	x1.0438
3882	4052	4052
1399	1460	1460
1615	1686	1686
3798	3965	3964
1507	1573	1573
3521	3675	3675
1587	1657	1657
1556	1625	1625

SS Physical	SS Shadow (resist)	x1.0438
1495	1404 (138)	1560
1417	1331 (131)	1479
1455	1215 (269)	1519
3507	3294 (324)	3661
1479	1235 (273)	1544
3962	3722 (366)	4136
3807	3179 (703)	3974
3470	3260 (321)	3622
3851	3618 (356)	4020
3372	3168 (311)	3520

SS Physical	SS Shadow Crit
3693	5956
1756	2832
1436	2316
3927	6333
3437	5543
1672	2697

SS Physical	SS Shadow Crit (resist)
3785	4883 (699)
3372	3168 (311)

From these results, I conclude that the 1.0438 multiplier is spot on as long as there's no partial resist, but whenever there is a resist, something gets lost. I'll play with the math more and see what I can figure out.

Edit: From what I can gather, on Shadow crits we're gaining x1.5 for the crit (which should be x2.3) and x1.03 from somewhere. I can't think of what would give us a 3% bonus, unless it's Impurity.