Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 63

Devloc · 10/17/09, 3:12 PM

Above answered better, I think.

Convulsion · 10/17/09, 3:58 PM

With the upcoming nerf to the tier 9 4-piece, and in all likelyhood still using it until we have 3 pieces of tier 10, should we really still be considering using the icy touch glyph? Icy touch generally hits harder then plague strike, but it seems to me with the chance of criting only on blood plague that the PS glyph would be a better option.

Devloc · 10/17/09, 4:16 PM

Or perhaps even Glyph of Blood Strike?

Amroo · 10/17/09, 5:28 PM

Originally Posted by Convulsion

With the upcoming nerf to the tier 9 4-piece, and in all likelyhood still using it until we have 3 pieces of tier 10, should we really still be considering using the icy touch glyph? Icy touch generally hits harder then plague strike, but it seems to me with the chance of criting only on blood plague that the PS glyph would be a better option.

You are aware of the fact that GoPS buffs Plague Strike by 20% and not Blood Plague? Even without disease critting, FF does much more damage than PS, even on a single target fight.

Kaejin · 10/17/09, 7:59 PM

Originally Posted by Amroo

stuff about how many mobs it takes for FF to overtake DnD

Another thing to take into account is that DnD likely won't be used every 15 seconds on the mark. As You get closer to FF's full duration of 21 seconds without using DnD again, the two get closer and closer. I was doing a lot of bad napkin math last night and figured that, using 7000 AP (because that seemed like a reasonable place to be when raid-buffed), with 15 seconds of DPS (using DnD right after it's off CD), DnD is better by around 30% before the AoE cap kicks in. At 18 seconds, FF gains another tic and the two become rather close. At 21 seconds, FF overtook DnD in damage.

With the current Unholy AoE rotation, you're much more likely to use DnD somewhere between 18 and 21 seconds after it was last cast. Now, obviously the current rotation will change in 3.3, but I'm using it for an example on why this could be important. If we use 2/2 Epidemic in 3.3, which seems likely, DnD's 15s cooldown will end up clashing with the 21 second duration of diseases and probably won't end up being used every 15 seconds.

Regardless, you'd still want to use both of them for AoE fights.

Azuma · 10/17/09, 9:20 PM

Another point to bring up is that with bone shield moving to a 5 minute duration again, does this leave room for ghoul frenzy to be used every so often with blood tap? or is blood strike still a better option?

Veritas17 · 10/17/09, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by Amroo

So, in this case GoIT would overtake GoD&D at 13 mobs.

Also, if you consider that there are pretty much no "pure AoE" fights, GoIT vs. GoDnD is pretty much a no-brainer. Right now, Anub'arak hard is probably as AoE as it gets and in exclusively all top-parses on WMO FF damage overtakes DnD damage (if you add half of the WP damage to FF damage). And those are probably all cases where DnD was glyphed.

In my case for our hardmode Anub'arak kill my dnd damage was FAR above my BP and FF damage by a large margin and I was right up under the unholy dk's for the fight (I was playing as frost dw for the kill). I'll have to post a parse but when I was playing as unholy dw I would constantly be at the top or near the top and my dnd damage still was #1 while the diseases were #2 and 3 respectively.

I wasn't thinking about the frost fever ticks being increased too for whatever reason so I hadn't accounted for that when I posted my reply so pardon that; what you said makes sense.

Nessana · 10/18/09, 2:06 AM

Hello

I have a question about the Rota
it is said here in the thread that 2 Bloodstrikes > Scoruge Strike

But with my DK 1 Scourge Strike is greater than 2 Blood strikes.
and if you think about the 9% crit.....

Maybe its because of my cap gear with my dk?
I wear just low epic.

Sharkweek · 10/18/09, 2:11 AM

With scourge strike looking better, is there a chance that a build with reaping, and possibly even 2/2 epidemic + glyph of scourge strike to get more SS vs IT and PS, will be coming back or is the IT+PS combo still better than an individual SS? I'm guessing that having reaping to sub in a SS for two blood strikes wouldn't give you 100% uptime on desolation, which is probably a bad thing, but how about longer diseases for more scourge strikes?

On a side note, I'm really getting annoyed with unholy being revamped with every major content patch so far, but I guess that's the downside of a brand new class.

Consider · 10/18/09, 2:16 AM

Opportunity cost is what it comes down to. What it always comes down to.

@ Nessana | 1 SS may outdamage 2 BS at certain gear levels... but that's not all there is to it. At absolutely no gear level does the gap become large enough in SS's favor to make Reaping worth it. Not currently, at any rate. Remember, Reaping isn't free. It costs three talent points, which is no small amount. Thus you have to weigh how much dps you gain from trading 2 BS for 1 SS every 20 seconds with the loss of three talent points.

Reaping will never win.

@ Asuma | Even if one GF produces more damage than BS (which it does), and you could devote 4 out of ever 5 Blood Taps to it, it still wouldn't be worth taking - for a similar reason as to why Reaping isn't taken now, even with 1 SS outdamaging 2 BS at many gear levels. It's not simply "Does 1 GF produce more damage than 1 BS every minute?". It's "Does 1 GF produce more damage than 1 BS and an extra talent point in Dark Conviction/Bladed Armor/Necrosis/Whatever?". And the answer to that is most certainly no.

The math is something like this: Your ghoul's autoattack does about 900 dps (somewhat lower, more likely, but regardless, overestimating in GF's favor). Thus GF gives 225 dps for 30 seconds, or a total of 6750 damage. BS does about 3300 (somewhat more, but this just gives GF the benefit of the doubt, once again). That's a gap of 3450 damage. You would be making this trade off four times every five minutes, for a total gain of (3450 x 4)/(60 x 5) = 46 dps. One point in any of the aforementioned talents is going to give you more than that, easily.

@Sharkweek | Short of the SS change getting completely reverted, Epidemic will definitely be taken in 3.3.0. Even if the SS change were to be reverted, it would probably still be taken with t10 2p/GoIT nerf, for that matter. GoSS, on the other hand, will not be worth it. It will be better than it is, yes, but it won't be better than alternative glyphs. GoSS pretty much gives you 1 SS in place of 1 PS + 1 IT per minute, which although a gain, isn't a large enough gain to top GoDD (or GotG, whichever one you would sacrifice).

Reaping is still too close to call, and will depend on the exact specifics of SS. It will be very close one way or the other, and with there still being some questions about the new SS, it's hard/impossible to say. You'll have 100% (or near enough to not matter) uptime on Desolation with or without it, for that matter.

Sharkweek · 10/18/09, 2:16 AM

Originally Posted by Nessana

Hello

I have a question about the Rota
it is said here in the thread that 2 Bloodstrikes > Scoruge Strike

But with my DK 1 Scourge Strike is greater than 2 Blood strikes.
and if you think about the 9% crit.....

Maybe its because of my cap gear with my dk?
I wear just low epic.

I think the idea here is that you have 5/5 desolation for a 5% damage boost for 20 seconds every time you use blood strike, so it's not the strike itself so much as keeping desolation up to buff everything, and if you take global cooldowns and human error into account you won't keep desolation up 100% of the time if you're using SS every other blood rune cooldown, so you lose more from not having desolation up than you gain from SS damage > BS damage, plus the talent points are spent elsewhere.

NeuroMedivh · 10/18/09, 2:22 AM

Originally Posted by Nessana

Hello

I have a question about the Rota
it is said here in the thread that 2 Bloodstrikes > Scoruge Strike

But with my DK 1 Scourge Strike is greater than 2 Blood strikes.
and if you think about the 9% crit.....

Maybe its because of my cap gear with my dk?
I wear just low epic.

The question is whether 1 Scourge Strike is > 2 Bloodstrikes + all the extra dmg that those three talent points would generate on other abilities. The answer, in 3.2 at least, is no. By putting those three points into some combination of Bladed Armor/Dark Conviction, you gain more dmg than you would from doing an extra SS instead of 2xBS.

Zinfadel · 10/18/09, 5:04 PM

I would think that the new Sigil might put reaping over enough to take it. What about dropping epidemic for reaping, and then go w/ GoSS? I know it's all just speculation atm. I'm guessing for glyphs, Dark Death and Ghoul are still a must. It seems like Glyph of IT, Disease, and SS would be the best for that 3rd glyph, also considering the nerf to Unholy Blight.

• frmorrison · 10/18/09, 6:41 PM

Originally Posted by Zinfadel

I would think that the new Sigil might put reaping over enough to take it. What about dropping epidemic for reaping, and then go w/ GoSS?

Assuming the PTR went Live, you would keep the 245 sigil and ignore the new one. Reaping is too expensive for what it gives.

Mild Confusion · 10/18/09, 7:13 PM

One of the reasons GoSS isn't considered good is that it only counts for the target you are hitting, it doesn't refresh diseases on aoe. So depending on how much aoe is in Icecrown will determine the value of aoe. But even then, you are just trading 1 SS for a PS + IT every 60 seconds.