There is no typo in the ArP/Expertise stat weights. ArP does scale that well - just as well as it did previously. Expertise simply goes up in value as the new SS goes up in value.
I'm still not having Reaping showing as a dps loss in current gear - yours Griefknight, mine (which is almost identical to yours), a generic 258 set, anything. And it stands to reason that it's no dps gain: the quick math a few posts back about Reaping's value was pretty realistic. SS is hitting for an average of almost exactly 10k at this gear level. IT + PS is hitting for almost exactly 7.5k at this gear level, which is 42 (~0.47%) dps a talent point. BA and DC are both still superior, by a not so negligible gap.
If you can post (or PM me, all the same) some side by side sims of the two spec, I can probably figure out what's up, but as it is, I still remain unconvinced as whatever I do, I simply can't replicate such results - nor can others I know and trust. Most importantly, though, just doesn't hold up to logic.
Anyways, in another area, yes, GoSS + No Epidemic + Morbidity is certainly possible. If you check the armory, that's actually what Potlol is running. The difference between that and GoDD + Morbidity is 5% DC damage, 3 extra seconds on your diseases on your primary target (RoR, if nothing else), and 6 extra seconds on your diseases on additional targets verse 10 second less cooldown on DnD. I just don't consider the latter near as valuable for a spec which is intended for primarily single target. On what fight are you going to use DnD that often without actually swapping to an AoE spec (assuming you aren't using a generalized spec to begin with)? Even on a fight like HM Anub, I don't get the chance to use DnD more than once per add wave, which would actually render Morbidity all but useless.
On a lot of single target fights, you're still going to be Pesting, and Epidemic helps there. On a lot of single target fights, you'll occasional DnD, sure, but not more than every 30 seconds.
Such is my take on it, anyways, but different playstyles will vary.
Edit: To be clear on DC and additional RP, you do want to use it. Yes, of course, obviously. You simply don't want to use it past the inherent empty GCDs of the rotation (which is plenty). For RP to start getting wasted as such you would need to be receiving an additional 300+ RP per minute from AMS/Revitalize/Etc, which is quite unlikely. It's really nothing to worry about.
This is probably a pretty dumb question, and I may just be doing something wrong however, here goes.
You list the stat orders of t8/9 as Hit > Strength > Crit Rating > ArP >= Expertise > Haste > Agility and then t10 as Hit > Strength > ArP > Expertise > Crit > Haste > Agility. Now, later on you have the list of when you should go with orange ( usually STR/Crit ) gems. Since Crit seems to plummet quite a bit once you drop 4t9 wouldn't that list change quite a bit once you go from t9 gear into t10 gear? Or am I just missing something?
All melee hits can proc the Bryntroll's proc (BCB is a melee hit). It is affected by normal spell debuffs (Ebon Plague and 3% crit/hit), not spell damage, and cannot crit. It is also affected by all % damage increases, like Blood Presence, Ret Aura, Bone Shield, etc.
An additional note on Bryntroll, since it's bound to be asked a few times: The proc rate on the drain life effect is very high, something like 9-10 ppm counting procs from specials. I'm not working off a huge sample size but I have it as 3.3% of my DPS on Anub-25H and close to 5% on fights with less AoE.
I assume the high proc rate is intended, as the weapon has to make up for losing 0.2 swing speed compared to Cryptmaker (in addition to the item budget spent on the proc instead of stats). Obviously that's pure speculation though.
E: Minor correction, thought I had a purely single-target parse with Drain Life > 5%. Turns out I don't, and that was just an estimate based on parses with it doing 4.5%-ish where I also had a bunch of AoE damage. Anyway, proc is still good and probably about 5% DPS on a Patchwerk fight.
Perhaps it is just me but I am using a spec with 3/3 reaping, 3/3 Morbitity, 4/5 Dark Conviction and my DPS on target dummies is 100 dps higher. Today, I went and tried both specs in OP as well as 12/0/59 and the old 17/0/54 and for me 16/0/55 is doing better. I did not run parses, just used recount and checked everything after each test. I did each fight for the same length, over the corse of 2 gargoyle summons with my pet assisting and that was my results. Each spec I would cast sequence the rotation so all I had to do was spam one button so I wouldn't fat finger anything or loose any time on a keypress.
Has anyone else done any live testing with the spec's to see if the newest specs in the OP?
I am also curious as to how much a change in dps there would be by using Morbidity instead of Necrosis. I started doing some testing on this but wasn't able to finish because a group moved in on my dummy and dropped it to 1 hp. Now I'm going to bed, hoping to pick up where I left off in the morning. I'd assume as you get more and more ArP and higher DPS weapons Necrosis would start to pull away by a decent margin.
I am also curious as to how much a change in dps there would be by using Morbidity instead of Necrosis. I started doing some testing on this but wasn't able to finish because a group moved in on my dummy and dropped it to 1 hp. Now I'm going to bed, hoping to pick up where I left off in the morning. I'd assume as you get more and more ArP and higher DPS weapons Necrosis would start to pull away by a decent margin.
Not doing any heavy number crunching, but based on my number's on Saurfang from ICC 10 man, which is largely a no movement tank and spank with some occasional aoe off the beasts, given the encounter I don't believe I made too many errors off my rotation, which is identical to the one posted on the first page, though in a different order for no reason in particular. World of logs put me down for doing 77002 damage, while my death coils put me at a total of 180041 damage, which were 4.6% and 10.6% of my damage respectively. Just applying them to my numbers for yesterday, I would've goten 30800 off necrosis, for a gain of 15% to my death coil damage which would've been for about 27006, a difference of 3794 or 0.22% of my damage.
Even counting on the fact that I probably am not taking all factors that would effect those numbers into account, the amount is so small it's fairly neglible. I'm running 469 ARP and using non-heroic reckoning, which a fairly low weapon damage in comparison to a lot of other stuff out even before 3.3, obviously that number would scale higher with gear improvements
Given what I saw with the numbers, I'd probably spec into morbidity just because any situation where a shorter D&D CD would significantly improve my DPS, versus single-target where it's only slightly higher, I'd probably want to spec into Morbidity. I would have anyway, but I don't like the taste of respec'ing again after the many times I already have since 3.3 hit.
Hi Consider, in your OP, you said that it is worth replacing tier 9 with tier 10. However your APEs for 4xT9 and 2xT10 seem to suggest otherwise:
4T9 457.38
2T10 234.43
Should we not be holding off on tier 10 till we can get 4-piece T10, based on your APEs?
(Not the OP but...)
It would be safe to assume you would then have 2 piece of both t9 and t10, leaving only a gap of 76 ape on paper.
Then also taking into consideration your SS hitting harder with the two set and extra per rotation with reaping, plus the difference in stats (if it is 10.25 or 10.5) I think it would still be a safe upgrade.
Personally I will wait until I get a two set of (10.25 to replace 9.25) before equipping them so I don't lose the 4 piece, but that's just me.
There is no typo in the ArP/Expertise stat weights. ArP does scale that well - just as well as it did previously. Expertise simply goes up in value as the new SS goes up in value.
I don't remember exactly pre-nerf values listed here of those stats but I am almost sure they were lower. Which leads me to question how those get even higher while they should go down after SS nerf.
Now about 4xT9 vs 2xT10 I really do not think that swapping 2x ilvl245 T9 to 2x ilvl251 T10 will make difference. It may be very well dps loss on any fight with aoe going on. 2x ilvl264 is probably worth it but then it will be hard to get until hard modes get open.
To get 4x ilvl251 T10 you need min. 310 badges, ouch
Going for 2x ilvl251 T10 makes sense only when it will free up some hit/exp so you can fill those with better items and overall got upgrade. If it doesn't then it is only sidegrade on single target and dps loss on aoe. 4xT10, even ilvl251, is top priority but will take a while - if I am not mistaken we should have enough badges for 4xT10 around time when last wing of ICC is opened.
I would like to question the first post on "10 second rotations being the thing of the past" With the buff to scourge strike from 3.2 to 3.3, and the nerf afterwards, I was wondering if the 3.2 17/0/54 spec with 2 points into morbidity instead of epidemic be a better option than the 17/0/54 spec currently shown on the front of the thread?
Dumb question: is it better to respect rotation and re-apply diseases when they have 3-4 seconds left or to prioritize in order to let them fall off before re-appliying them?
Dumb question: is it better to respect rotation and re-apply diseases when they have 3-4 seconds left or to prioritize in order to let them fall off before re-appliying them?
Ideally you want to reapply your diseases before they fall off, or you will lose ebon plaguebringer and Rage of Rivendare modifiers.
For that reason builds with 1/2 epidemic are not really an option. If you use your runes as they come available and prioritize them over RP dumps, you should be able to easily make that with 2/2 epidemic and a 20 second rotation.
Another option is of course Glyph of Scourge Strike instead of GoDD and drop 2 points out of Epidemic, basically you lose a glyph slot but gain 2 talent points and your diseases last 24 seconds instead of 21.
If you put those 2 points in morbidity, effectively you sacrifice 5% death coil damage for 3 second longer diseases.
If that means the difference for you between easily refreshing diseases and having them fall of before reapplying that seems worth it. Refreshing diseases without RoR and Ebon Plaguebringer up means you lose 20% damage on them. (Or at least on Blood Plague)
Perhaps it is just me but I am using a spec with 3/3 reaping, 3/3 Morbitity, 4/5 Dark Conviction and my DPS on target dummies is 100 dps higher. Today, I went and tried both specs in OP as well as 12/0/59 and the old 17/0/54 and for me 16/0/55 is doing better. I did not run parses, just used recount and checked everything after each test. I did each fight for the same length, over the corse of 2 gargoyle summons with my pet assisting and that was my results. Each spec I would cast sequence the rotation so all I had to do was spam one button so I wouldn't fat finger anything or loose any time on a keypress.
Has anyone else done any live testing with the spec's to see if the newest specs in the OP?
1) Dummies (as has been said countless times before) are useless for testing.
2) Recount isn't working properly yet as far as I've seen. I didn't check last night, but there wasn't an update the day before. Use a sim for testing specs and gearsets. They're far more likely to be up to date on the new numbers right now.
Yes, the 4pc T9 bonus is better than 2pc T10 bonus but the stats you gain by going from T9 to T10 make T10 2pc better. You should be upgrading to 2pc T10 as soon as you can.
I do understand that the increased stats would cover the loss in APE from losing the 4-piece bonus of T9. But it probably wouldn't be a priority upgrade to be grabbed as soon as possible. The APE value difference between 4xT9 and 2xT10 is (457-234) = 223, which offsets a chunk of the stats you gain. So if there are better upgrades available I would take them instead.
Say I were to replace a level 245 belt with a level 264 one, I would similarly gain 19 i-levels worth of stats, without losing out in terms of the bonuses, just to quote an example.
Dark Death is the lowest dps increase of the three glyphs listed in the OP. In addition, for people that wanted to min/max their trash pack AoE could also drop GoDD for glyph of Death and Decay.
Otherwise, you can use your secondary spec for that instead or accept lower trash dps.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
New BiS lists added, thanks in large part to Bjados.
And, speaking of, yes, the enchants in the BiS list do match those in the Enchanting section. Remember, glove/boot enchants will vary depending on whether or not your hit capped (and such is stated in the Enchanting section). Otherwise, everything is identical.
Morbidity is not stronger than Necrosis on a single target. Run any sim at any gear level as any spec, and you'll see 4% auto-attack > 5% death coil. Look at any raid parse (such as ones posted on this very page), and you'll see the same.
Please cut it out with the dummy testing. It means nothing, and just clutters up the thread with things blatantly untrue and discussion which will leads nowhere. If you do a dummy testing and have a "feeling" it might actually mean something, then go run some sims or parse some raids, and then post about it. Until then... just, no.
@Fugazor: Were those stat weights calculated simply by changing the set bonus, or actually changing the underlying gear used?
I ran the numbers from my recent WoL report with Bryntroll and the proc is worth ~390 dps on single target in an unholy build, if that helps you with the BiS lists. According to the sim, in current T9 gear, that put Bryntroll 200 dps above heroic Dual-Blade Butcher.
Small typos: Death's Choice (Heroic) is listed in the non-heroic loot list, and right above the first stat weights table it says 259 instead of 258.
Yeah, I have a feeling Bryntroll is BiS. It would help if the sim gave a DPS per AP number, so the loss of stats (crit/arp/etc) could more easily be compared to the gain of the proc. Such a number would be useful for a variety of other reasons and tests, and would actually allow one to compare stat weights and scaling cross specs (something you certainly can't do now). Something I've been desirous of for some time.
As to Death's Choice, that was a difficult call. I would think that given ICC gear, even the most mediocre of players would be able to go back and complete Twin Valks hard, as it isn't a difficult encounter, and as better gear will eliminate the only challenges in it (downing shields in time and not dying). Insanity loot wasn't counted, for that matter.
At any rate, the normal version would be BiS regardless. I suppose I'll change it.
Typos fixed.
Has anyone else noticed Bone Shield charges being consumed by AoEs, such as Algalon stars collapsing?
Has anyone else noticed Bone Shield charges being consumed by AoEs, such as Algalon stars collapsing?
Yes. I was noticing that today in the Random Heroic. I wasnt sure if that was new or pertinent information to be posted though. But yes. I have noticed that.
I will also be posting some parses hopefully from the Bryntoll next week. A fellow dk in the guild was able to get one in an alt run and will be rolling with it next week so perhaps those will help for analysis. The proc rate does seem to add roughly 5-8% overall damage from what Ive noticed though which, as mentioned, Im sure makes up for the speed. I imagine that for single target fights, which a lot of ICC seems like, this is definitely BIS, but for fights which have more AOE, I would guess that it would be 2nd BIS. Odd to think there may possibly be two BIS weapons but Im sure the different would be fairly low in terms of overall DPS.
i have been doing chain heroics and ive noticed that my charges have been getting eatting by aoe, like flamestrike and other no direction damage, i have been to uld this week yet. But if my guild does go back to Algalon monday ill pay close attention to it
Running the simulator, I find that using this build provides more dps than the build listed on the front page, replacing GoDD with GoD, and Epidemic with 2/3 Morbidity.
The rotation would be:
Intro: PS-IT-SS-BS-PS-DC
Then use: SS-SS-BS-PS-DC-(DC)
Obviously very simple and easy, however using my own gear and the 2h ToC Unholy set, it shows higher dps than the front page build.
17/0/54 Epidemic/No GoD:
Ability
Total
%
Landed
Hit%
Crit%
Miss%
Average
MainHand
608000579
19.4
135353
66.2
33.8
0
4492
Ghoul
383742904
12.2
333600
86.9
13.1
0
1150.3
DeathCoil
302563878
9.6
54457
65.2
34.8
0
5556
ScourgeStrikeMagical
236337682
7.5
51070
100
0
0
4627.7
BloodPlague
235377514
7.5
107966
66
34
0
2180.1
ScourgeStrike
233645031
7.4
51070
51.2
48.8
0
4575
BloodStrike
227739258
7.3
63545
57.2
42.8
0
3583.9
FrostFever
211968907
6.8
108109
100
0
0
1960.7
Gargoyle
166332888
5.3
33877
86.9
13.1
0
4909.9
WanderingPlague
150457507
4.8
72540
100
0
0
2074.1
Necrosis
121603015
3.9
135353
100
0
0
898.4
BloodCakedBlade
99387426
3.2
40615
100
0
0
2447.1
PlagueStrike
74296826
2.4
18315
60.3
39.7
0
4056.6
IcyTouch
58425225
1.9
18822
65.1
34.9
0
3104.1
UnholyBlight
30254280
1
54457
100
0
0
555.6
Horn
0
0
969
100
0
0
0
BoneShield
0
0
1186
100
0
0
0
BloodTap
0
0
1084
100
0
0
0
DPS 8723
Total Damage 3140.13m in 100h
Threat Per Second 3965
Generated in 52s
Template: Unholy 17-00-54
Priority: Unholy
Presence: Blood
Sigil: Virulence
RuneEnchant: FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation: True
No Epidemic/GoD
Ability
Total
%
Landed
Hit%
Crit%
Miss%
Average
MainHand
606428999
19.2
135353
66.2
33.8
0
4480.4
Ghoul
382008163
12.1
333600
87
13
0
1145.1
ScourgeStrikeMagical
332673614
10.5
71999
100
0
0
4620.5
ScourgeStrike
328807086
10.4
71999
51.1
48.9
0
4566.8
DeathCoil
293303389
9.3
54987
65.2
34.8
0
5334
BloodPlague
268050684
8.5
119999
66
34
0
2233.8
FrostFever
236478937
7.5
119999
100
0
0
1970.7
WanderingPlague
170378872
5.4
80981
100
0
0
2103.9
Gargoyle
167664506
5.3
34392
86.9
13.1
0
4875.1
BloodStrike
125467356
4
34801
57.1
42.9
0
3605.3
Necrosis
121288352
3.8
135353
100
0
0
896.1
BloodCakedBlade
100958797
3.2
40615
100
0
0
2485.8
UnholyBlight
29331420
0.9
54987
100
0
0
533.4
PlagueStrike
4811
0
1
0
100
0
4811
IcyTouch
3697
0
1
0
100
0
3697
Pestilence
0
0
36000
100
0
0
0
BoneShield
0
0
1199
100
0
0
0
BloodTap
0
0
1199
100
0
0
0
DPS 8786
Total Damage 3162.85m in 100h
Threat Per Second 3847
Generated in 62s
Template: Unholy 14-0-54 GoD
Rotation: unholy
Presence: Blood
Sigil: Virulence
RuneEnchant: FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation: True
That's using the simulator's 2h ToC Unholy. In my gear (which isn't that great), it's about an 83dps increase, although I'm not sure if it still wins in ICC and T10 gear. If someone else wants to run the sim and see if they get similar results that would be great.
Has anyone else noticed Bone Shield charges being consumed by AoEs, such as Algalon stars collapsing?
Bryntroll is BiS for Ret (who gets slightly more procs), so it would make sense for it to be BiS for Unholy (this ignores Shadowmourne).
Bone Shield does seem to be consumed by being hit with AoE.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
As was discussed in the past (admittedly a while in the past), you can't use a priority system when looking at the value of Epidemic due to the simulator sneaking in that last SS at time where it shouldn't, then having to BS and such for a couple seconds without diseases.
When I went to replicate your results, I received the following, which is pretty much the same and would confirm what you said:
Ability
Total
%
Landed
Hit%
Crit%
Miss%
Average
MainHand
608205722
19.3
135353
66.2
33.8
0
4493.5
Ghoul
383995779
12.2
333600
86.9
13.1
0
1151.1
DeathCoil
308834086
9.8
55696
65.2
34.8
0
5545
ScourgeStrikeMagical
241210494
7.7
52083
100
0
0
4631.3
ScourgeStrike
238454162
7.6
52083
51.2
48.8
0
4578.3
BloodStrike
234836805
7.5
65777
57
43
0
3570.2
BloodPlague
230254991
7.3
107239
66.1
33.9
0
2147.1
FrostFever
209560644
6.7
107059
100
0
0
1957.4
Gargoyle
164389914
5.2
33601
86.9
13.1
0
4892.4
WanderingPlague
146744825
4.7
71477
100
0
0
2053
Necrosis
121644024
3.9
135353
100
0
0
898.7
BloodCakedBlade
98655787
3.1
40615
100
0
0
2429
PlagueStrike
69920831
2.2
17486
60.3
39.7
0
3998.7
IcyTouch
57699210
1.8
18663
65.1
34.9
0
3091.6
UnholyBlight
30881357
1
55696
100
0
0
554.5
Horn
0
0
2979
100
0
0
0
BoneShield
0
0
1188
100
0
0
0
BloodTap
0
0
1112
100
0
0
0
DPS 8737
Total Damage 3145.29m in 100h
Threat Per Second 3969
Generated in 39s
Template: NoMorbiii
Priority: Unholy
Presence: Blood
Sigil: Virulence
RuneEnchant: FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation: True
However, when I use the proper priority, I receive the following, which proves the build in the OP's superiority:
12/11/09, 11:03 PM
