Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 75

Kalitari · 11/02/09, 1:47 AM

Lets be honest, at the moment there is not a single instance where you could regularly keep rolling fully buffed diseases for 4 minutes or more. So, outside simulationcraft, GoD is simply just not worth it.

Nekali · 11/02/09, 7:30 AM

Originally Posted by Kalitari

Lets be honest, at the moment there is not a single instance where you could regularly keep rolling fully buffed diseases for 4 minutes or more. So, outside simulationcraft, GoD is simply just not worth it.

I would rather say a statement like that has no worth outside theorycraft. I don't know the math behind the 4 minute statement, but I even if it is correct for some gearset in practice things look a bit different.

Some points:

- All the relevant buffs to attackpower (except FC) are on a 45s ICD with very high proc chances and tend to synchronise very often, even more so if the fight has "breaks": On Anub, you can easily have fully buffed diseases (at most 1 proc missing) up every time by simply not hitting the last few scarabs. So even if you get unlucky or screw up, usually at most 20-30s later, you will have another opportunity. The use of an add-on to tracks ICDs & disease AP-coefficient is highly recommended, of course. Synching up procs is great for gargoyle, too.

- Usually my diseases have have a 11-12.5k AP mod (FC, Paragon, Greatness, 2T9, Sigil and i could racechange to orc). Does the four minute number take into account such high spikes in AP?

- As soon there is more then one target these "four minutes" become 4 minutes divided by the number of targets available. Best example here is Jaraxuss: I can usually maintain one set of fully buffed diseases throughout the whole fight, spreading it to all adds. But jogmundars, faction champions, twins and anub are also examples. In AoE fights I can't imagine any of the "standard" glyphs to be better, as long there is a single long living target to maintain the diseases on.

- The material cost of a glyph is about 1-2g on my server. There is absolutely no reason to not have a stack of GoD and one of GotG glyphs and to switch them. At least in 3.3 it seems that epidemic will be taken by all unholy Dks once more, so its really just a matter of switching glyphs (which is much much cheaper then say maintaining 100% flask uptime).

- Targetswitching: Ideally you switch targets with a pestilence already if at all possible. With GoD you get a full 21s of diseases on the old target as a bonus, dealing significant "cleave" damage.

- Playstyle: overall it seems to me that while it is really easy to have worse numbers with GoD then without, the potential damage output on many fights is a lot higher, but often requires a lot of attention (off target disease tracking, use of addons, etc). I have been playing GoD on most fights the last month and it has been a lot of fun trying to optimize "what I do", also I have never been a fan of set "rotations" and GoD seems to support the "reacting to what happens" playstyle very nicely. The ability to bloodtap a pest in the last second allows for some mistakes and can actually improve DPS in some situations. I really hope in ICC will be some encounters that support this playstyle otherwise I am back to blood :p

tetracycloide · 11/02/09, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

I won't take it. There are only a few bosses where you can roll the diseases and the aoe heavier encounter are more about bursting mobs or objects down. An almost invincible pet is better.

Actually simple target switching and time off target doesn't eliminate the possibility of rolling buffed diseases by itself. The difference between rolling the diseases for 4 mins and rolling them for 1 min intervals 4 times when the breaks in DPS are long enough to reset ICDs and CDs is only 3 GCDs. The rolling mechanic is still there and there is still DPS to be gained from having proc buffed AP on every disease refresh even if the rolling has to be restarted more than once. In the end it comes down to playstyle but just based on the table you've posted I certianly wouldn't recommend replacing GoD outright.

Denrire · 11/02/09, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by Consider

AttackPower	1
Strength	3.05
Agility	1.63
CritRating	2.31
HasteRating	1.08
ArmorPenetrationRating	1.88
ExpertiseRating	2.55
BeforeMeleeHitCap<8%	3.6
SpellHitRating	1.01
WeaponDPS	6.92

I looked through the forums and didn't see a mention of revisiting the [Chaotic Skyflare Diamond] and [Relentless Earthsiege Diamond] discussion. With these new stat weights, it appears it may be worth changing to [Chaotic Skyflare Diamond] if the socket bonus will be activated only by using a blue gem, and the bonus yields 6 Strength or 8 Critical Strike Rating. Note: Tables below list Nightmare Tear twice because it provides two useful stats from one gem.

Gem	Stat	EP
[Chaotic Skyflare Diamond]	21 Crit	48.51
[Nightmare Tear]	10 Agil	16.3
[Nightmare Tear]	10 Str	30.5
[Sovereign Dreadstone]	10 Str	30.5
Total	n/a	125.81

Gem	Stat	EP
[Relentless Earthsiege Diamond]	21 Agil	34.23
[Nightmare Tear]	10 Agil	16.3
[Nightmare Tear]	10 Str	30.5
[Bold Cardinal Ruby]	20 Str	61
Total	n/a	142.03

Without socket bonuses, the Relentless is clearly superior by a difference of 16.22 EP. I am going to assume that you are already using a Nightmare Tear to activate a 6 STR socket bonus, such as in [Koltira's Battleplate of Triumph]. However, if you have another item that provides a similarly strong socket bonus, such as [Dual-blade Butcher] the use of [Sovereign Dreadstone] in the blue socket will socket bonus of 6 Strength will provide 18.3 EP, covering the 16.22 EP difference in the gems. If we get a helm with a blue socket to provide 8 strength, this should grow even more. Please excuse me if my arithmetic is off or if this has already been covered.

[edit: grammar]

Thefirstdk · 11/02/09, 4:00 PM

I have a question and I am sorry if it has been answered and I didn't see it. Would I be correct in assuming that the stat weights for the upcoming changes on the front page are based off of having 4P T9? If so, is it based on the current version of T9 or 3.3 version.

My last question is will the stat weights essentially return to what they were before 3.2.2 When you go to 2P T10 in regards to crit?

Daerlan · 11/02/09, 7:12 PM

Originally Posted by tetracycloide

Actually simple target switching and time off target doesn't eliminate the possibility of rolling buffed diseases by itself. The difference between rolling the diseases for 4 mins and rolling them for 1 min intervals 4 times when the breaks in DPS are long enough to reset ICDs and CDs is only 3 GCDs. The rolling mechanic is still there and there is still DPS to be gained from having proc buffed AP on every disease refresh even if the rolling has to be restarted more than once. In the end it comes down to playstyle but just based on the table you've posted I certianly wouldn't recommend replacing GoD outright.

The problem is when diseases drop at all, GoD loses some of its opportunity cost value. Even if you refresh diseases with a full set of procs each and every time (seems highly unlikely), you're still dropping DPS from the "optimal" GoD scenario.

Assuming the sims are accurate, even in the optimal scenario for GoD it takes >6 minutes for GoD to pull ahead of GotG. Each time you let them drop, even if you're getting an increase in DPS from rolling diseases, that target fight length where GoD outperforms GotG in a single target fight is just going to get bigger and bigger.

I doubt the intention of posting that table was to imply GoD provides no DPS increase. Rather, it's to motivate the concept that the optimal scenario for GoD (as presented in sim results) is unlikely. Treat the GoD numbers as an upper bound, and the actual value as something somewhat lower.

From that perspective, GotG would seem to pull ahead in a strict sense, even when you don't consider the human-factor of actually refreshing diseases under a second remaining in duration consistently.

@Devloc:

He asked about playing in Blood Presence! Alas, just reading the thread would solve his problems.

Devloc · 11/02/09, 7:26 PM

delete.

Kalitari · 11/03/09, 3:03 AM

@Nekali

I was referring to the situation where you pick a single set of Glyphs for instance run and go with that from first boss to last one. I think there is no question about Glyphs of Disease, Death and Decay, and Icy Touch becoming the obvious choices for AoE heavy fights. However, do you really need them more to handle the AoE fights than you need the Glyphs of Ghoul, Dark Death, and Icy Touch for single target fights?

I'd say there is very few fights where the success hinges on extended use of wide AoE so going with maximum single-target damage and trusting Unholys already extremely good AoE-ability without the optimized AoE-Glyphs is probably the most efficient way to go.

If, you are prepared to switch to optimal Glyphs for every fight... Well, then the whole conversation about which Glyph set is best for single-target or AoE-dps becomes meaningless and you should start listing the best Glyph sets boss-by-boss instead.

EDIT: Totally forgot that you don't need Lexicon of Power to change Glyphs anymore. Edited the text appropriately.

insane_machine · 11/03/09, 4:51 AM

There's nothing complicated about carrying a stack of each glyph with you in your bags along with the relevant consumables and switch before bosses on the spot. I don't see the need to visit a capital city for that.

Padraig · 11/03/09, 8:05 AM

Originally Posted by Denrire

I looked through the forums and didn't see a mention of revisiting the [Chaotic Skyflare Diamond] and [Relentless Earthsiege Diamond] discussion. With these new stat weights, it appears it may be worth changing to [Chaotic Skyflare Diamond] if the socket bonus will be activated only by using a blue gem, and the bonus yields 6 Strength or 8 Critical Strike Rating. Note: Tables below list Nightmare Tear twice because it provides two useful stats from one gem.

Gem	Stat	EP
[Chaotic Skyflare Diamond]	21 Crit	48.51
[Nightmare Tear]	10 Agil	16.3
[Nightmare Tear]	10 Str	30.5
[Sovereign Dreadstone]	10 Str	30.5
Total	n/a	125.81

Gem	Stat	EP
[Relentless Earthsiege Diamond]	21 Agil	34.23
[Nightmare Tear]	10 Agil	16.3
[Nightmare Tear]	10 Str	30.5
[Bold Cardinal Ruby]	20 Str	61
Total	n/a	142.03

Without socket bonuses, the Relentless is clearly superior by a difference of 16.22 EP. I am going to assume that you are already using a Nightmare Tear to activate a 6 STR socket bonus, such as in [Koltira's Battleplate of Triumph]. However, if you have another item that provides a similarly strong socket bonus, such as [Dual-blade Butcher] the use of [Sovereign Dreadstone] in the blue socket will socket bonus of 6 Strength will provide 18.3 EP, covering the 16.22 EP difference in the gems. If we get a helm with a blue socket to provide 8 strength, this should grow even more. Please excuse me if my arithmetic is off or if this has already been covered.

[edit: grammar]

Hi all,

Sounds interesting, but I think you can only put 1 nightmare tear in your set.

Cheers

Pad

Necromir · 11/03/09, 8:25 AM

Originally Posted by Padraig

Hi all,

Sounds interesting, but I think you can only put 1 nightmare tear in your set.

Cheers

Pad

Correct about 1 nightmare tear. What he is showing is the value you gain since the nightmare tear gives you +10 str AND +10 agi. He just shows it on two lines.

Nekali · 11/03/09, 9:52 AM

Originally Posted by Kalitari

If, you are prepared to switch to optimal Glyphs for every fight... Well, then the whole conversation about which Glyph set is best for single-target or AoE-dps becomes meaningless and you should start listing the best Glyph sets boss-by-boss instead.

That really was my one point. You suggested GoD has no place outside theorycraft. A situation where you pick a single set of glyphs for the whole instance should either be farm or otherwise academic, ie, has no real relevance to progress raiding. As I already pointed out glyph swapping is much cheaper then the usual standard consumables and provides far bigger advantages. Large parts of the raiding community probably haven't realized that yet, but since the benefit/ cost (time+cash) ratio is so high it will eventually sink in.

My other points sum up to the unproven statement, that I believe, that there are actually a lot more fights that benefit from GoD more then GotG even if not "AE-type", as the usual Patchwerk-Type fight is the theorycraft one. Even on "not-AE" type fights GoD provides a (apparently) negligible loss of single target DPS and provides significant coincidential AE-damage. There are only two types of fights where GotG would be consistently better:
-> lots of shortlived or Adds, and no longlived ones. Those fights should probably be played with GoDnD, though.
-> Patchwerk-Type fight lasting less then 4-6 minutes. Pretty much academic and still GoD is a negligible DPS loss. If there is any chance of the ghoul dying or despawning due to fight mechanics (hello YS), the tables are turned instantly.

Concerning the statement that success often doesn't depend on AE, I am sympathetic. I hate those mages LB'ing my precious Emalon Adds. I hate all casters AEing my precious Onyxia Whelps instead of dealing single target damage to Onyxia. But more DPS to meaningful targets at _no cost_ is almost always better. I guess you could probably do Anub with ~15 Warriors and UH Dks sacrificing very little single target DPS (i.e. no DnD) and burn Anub down at least twice as fast as with a standard raid setup, killing all the adds with Diseases&Cleave damage. Just because there are not 15 Dks in the raid that contribution doesn't become meaningless. As an added benefit you provide the CoE debuff to everything in your range to whomever it may concern. Of course there is also the matter of Epeen, even if some of my damage might not be as meaningful as that of the hunters&mages I am competing with :>

irongnome · 11/03/09, 1:20 PM

I was reading section VI | Specs: Cookie Cutter builds as of 3.2.2

According to the DW thread a blood presence 15/0/55+1 spec will surpass a 3/13/55 in all current situations once 4pcT9 is attained. If at least not replacing it in the OP a note ought to be made to bring this change to light.

Unless of course if the DW thread is incorrect although a few minutes playing with the simulator seems to back up the 15/0/55+1 spec with over a full percentage point lead.

stormspirit · 11/03/09, 6:09 PM

Long time reader. Just a quick question has anyone checked the status of DW unholy on the PTR?
It would appear that the general feeling is that for optimal dps characters currently DW will have to switch back to 2H.
Has anyone actually tested this? If so can I get an idea of numbers and where DW and 2H Unholy will stand in relation to one another?

Melchior · 11/03/09, 7:10 PM

Originally Posted by stormspirit

Long time reader. Just a quick question has anyone checked the status of DW unholy on the PTR?
It would appear that the general feeling is that for optimal dps characters currently DW will have to switch back to 2H.
Has anyone actually tested this? If so can I get an idea of numbers and where DW and 2H Unholy will stand in relation to one another?

I think it's pretty certain that between the large increase in Scourge Strike contribution and lowered DC contribution (through IT glyph and UB changes) that pretty much all variants of DW UH are being put to rest.