Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 86

Alatyr · 11/30/09, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by Eighte

Is the rotation on the first page still the rotation to use for Unholy DK's currently, both single target & aoe?

Yes. The Unholy post is one of the most meticulously maintained posts on EJ, so the front page info is current.

Knaledge · 12/01/09, 11:32 AM

Thanks for updating the thread with the AoE rotation

I use the following -
1) IT, PS, PEST, DC <<gets diseases rolling>>
2) SS, SS, BS, SS, DC
3) SS, BS, PEST, SS, DC

I spam 2 & 3 in succession though I wonder, when using the AoE rotation you list in the post, I tend to have to wait approx 3-7 seconds between Scourge Strikes toward the end.

Is that intentional?

Consider · 12/01/09, 12:18 PM

You don't have DnD listed, which is obviously an error, so it's hard to see exactly where you went wrong.

But, no, there shouldn't be any waiting between the abilities I listed (aside from any empty GCDs at the end of the segment). The runes all line up perfectly, and after you do the initial rune rotation, the second and third are perfectly repeatable infinitely (aside from the number of Death Coils, which will vary - just dump as many as you can at the end of each segment. Always free GCDs when AoEing, so it's not something one has to actively manage and give any thought to).

Initial:

IT – PS – Pestilence – DnD – DC – HoW

SS – BS – BB – SS – DC – DC

SS – Pestilence – DnD – DC – HoW

First rotation you use a F rune, then U, B, FUB together.
Second, FU, B, FU, B.
Third, FU, B, FUB.
Repeat ad infinitum.

You're using the runes in the same order time and time again. Due to the grace period of runes and the fact that that your last three runes are being used together in the initial rotation, they're going to come back up together each time (meaning there is no GCD between the second Pestilence and DnD, although on paper it might seem so due to the previous rune segment).

Knaledge · 12/01/09, 12:24 PM

To be fair, I have been using cast sequence macros to adjust to Death Knight as a class. I played a rogue since launch, raided heavily, and while DKs are not a foreign concept in terms of "energy management"/tick management (runes/RP dumps, I suppose in this case) - I still have needed to use macros to get the hang of things.

Thankfully, since I have been using them since I could spend points on talents, I have adjusted enough where I am editing my sequences and even foregoing them altogether lately..

I think my error was in using the Single Target rotation and trying to get in DnD/BB. I'll have a look again tonight at the dummies but know this - I swear there were several times I would be waiting 2-3seconds (sometimes 7) when I could hit the Blood Strike/Scourge Strike flip flop toward the end of the rotation.

But then - again, I think I was using Single Target rotation and trying to add in DnD, BB, etc. - I had to use Blood Tap to get myself rolling again to mitigate the wait period.

Tianshaan · 12/01/09, 1:52 PM

Originally Posted by Consider

Initial:

IT – PS – Pestilence – DnD – DC – HoW

SS – BS – BB – SS – DC – DC

SS – Pestilence – DnD – DC – HoW

First rotation you use a F rune, then U, B, FUB together.
Second, FU, B, FU, B.
Third, FU, B, FUB.
Repeat ad infinitum.

Consider, the second rotation's runes in the table are different than where you describe it. (FU>B>B>FU in the table, whereas the description says FU>B>FU>B).

I am sure that this does not affect rune readiness, in that using either method works from a GCD pov...but I wanted to know if there was something that favors one over the other just in case.

Nyth_ · 12/01/09, 5:43 PM

Originally Posted by Tianshaan

Consider, the second rotation's runes in the table are different than where you describe it. (FU>B>B>FU in the table, whereas the description says FU>B>FU>B).

I am sure that this does not affect rune readiness, in that using either method works from a GCD pov...but I wanted to know if there was something that favors one over the other just in case.

In this case it doesn't matter what you use first.

Personally, I always prefer to keep runes together. So FU / FU / BB or FU / BB / FU
It's a habit from the old unholy days where you'd use the death runes. And if you didn't keep stuff together, you'd mess up sooner or later.

It doesn't matter a whole lot these days, but it's a personal rune management rule that never failed on me so far.

For that same reason I never open a fight with: PS>IT>BS>SS>BS
That just goes against my nature of keeping runes grouped, and in the next patch with deathrunes back that causes issues. So I usually just do: PS>IT>BS>BS>SS.
I used to do PS>IT>SS>BS>BS, sometimes but found that was not so smart. Not really because scourge strike will lack desolation on the initial rotation (Because that's not even noticable on dps meters at the end), but more because it makes swapping to the given AoE rotation harder.

So I'd advise to keep blood runes grouped, no need to complicate things once death runes come into play again.

---

On a different notion. Is anyone getting a "second gearset" ready for patch 3.3.

I've been comparing some items with pawn, and there are some interesting trade-offs that might be worth it.

For example switching from T9 chest + Ascension legs to Titanium Razorplate chest and T9 legs. Swapping Haste for Armor penetration. I'm just not 100% sure if the profit is worth the effort in this case.

Crewell · 12/01/09, 6:09 PM

Originally Posted by Consider

First rotation you use a F rune, then U, B, FUB together.
Second, FU, B, FU, B.
Third, FU, B, FUB.
Repeat ad infinitum.

I think you have a small error here. If you go from your third rotation to your first to repeat the cycle, you will have Death and Decay still on cooldown when the FUB become available. I think you can move the DnD in the third rotation up to the front and make it work though. Unfortunately I can't check right now as I'm at work.

Also is it safe to assume you are basing this rotation on having Glyph of Disease per the suggestion in the OP? If you stay with a standard glyph setup for single target (Ghoul, Icy Touch, Dark Death) you could cycle your first and second rotations and leave out the third. I say this as there are a few of us that don't use two DPS specs because we may need a tank off spec.

Consider · 12/01/09, 6:44 PM

@ Crewell: You only do the first rotation once (remember, you're using GoD for this. Without GoD, yes, things change, but without GoD you are optimizing your dps), then you rotate between the second and third. You do not go from the third to the first.

Thus, no error.

Originally Posted by Tianshaan

Consider, the second rotation's runes in the table are different than where you describe it. (FU>B>B>FU in the table, whereas the description says FU>B>FU>B).

I am sure that this does not affect rune readiness, in that using either method works from a GCD pov...but I wanted to know if there was something that favors one over the other just in case.

Oh, yes, yes. It doesn't change anything (and, technically, you could just swap that BB and the SS - it wouldn't affect anything dps wise anyways, and would make the runes come up as I describe), but a mistake nonetheless.

ReynorSOE · 12/03/09, 1:30 PM

Maybe I'm missing something, but...

For the AoE rotation the 3rd rotation is identical to the initial rotation except that the IT & PS are being replaced with a SS. Ok, so you have to glyph GoD in order to roll the diseases. Right?

Would it not make more sense to remove the 3rd rotation all together and rotate the initial and 2nd rotation, and then replace the GoD with Dark Death?

I mean, the way it's laid out now there is less than a second margin of error in the rotation before the diseases fall off. Doing it the way I've outlined alleviates that concern altogether.

But more importantly, I find it hard to understand how one extra SS per full rotation is better than an IT, a PS, AND +15% damage on ~3 death coils per rotation.

Any thoughts?

Nyth_ · 12/03/09, 4:20 PM

Originally Posted by ReynorSOE

Maybe I'm missing something, but...

For the AoE rotation the 3rd rotation is identical to the initial rotation except that the IT & PS are being replaced with a SS. Ok, so you have to glyph GoD in order to roll the diseases. Right?

Would it not make more sense to remove the 3rd rotation all together and rotate the initial and 2nd rotation, and then replace the GoD with Dark Death?

I mean, the way it's laid out now there is less than a second margin of error in the rotation before the diseases fall off. Doing it the way I've outlined alleviates that concern altogether.

But more importantly, I find it hard to understand how one extra SS per full rotation is better than an IT, a PS, AND +15% damage on ~3 death coils per rotation.

Any thoughts?

Well in Live a good reason to use GoD is to roll diseases with high AP behind them. However in 3.3 that won't matter anymore.
In 3.3 however, scourge strike will be significant stronger than PS+IT.

The +15% damage on deathcoil in an AoE situation is marginal dps as well.

ReynorSOE · 12/03/09, 4:35 PM

Originally Posted by Nyth_

Well in Live a good reason to use GoD is to roll diseases with high AP behind them. However in 3.3 that won't matter anymore.
In 3.3 however, scourge strike will be significant stronger than PS+IT.

The +15% damage on deathcoil in an AoE situation is marginal dps as well.

I understand that SS will be significantly stronger, but with diseases reapplying based on your current ap will scourge strike be enough dps over an IT, PS, and 15% increase damage on ~3 death coils per rotation to warrant relying on HoD to refresh diseases?

I guess what I am getting at is it worth the risk to drop diseases for an insignificant dps increase? Or would it be significant? I guess that's what I'm asking.

I ran 5 minute drills using both rotations on the 3 lvl 80 dummies in Ebon Hold (I know, I know, unreliable) and the results were virtually identical.

I guess I'd be concerned about being in a situation in a boss fight where I'd have to run or reposition for a couple of seconds and now my rotation would be screwed because my diseases dropped off. If every boss was Patchwerk then great, otherwise...

I dunno. Just thinking out loud...

I'm comparing some numbers and will post the results when I have it figured out.

ReynorSOE · 12/03/09, 5:33 PM

Ok here are some numbers based on a drill I just ran using rotations 1 & 2 with GoD replaced with glyph of dark death. It was about a 4 minute drill on 3 lvl 80 dummies in Ebon Hold. (I know dummies aren't reliable, but it will give an idea of the numbers we're dealing with. Since removing GoD doesn't effect the damage output of SS this should be accurate enough.

Scourge Strike
Crit 53.6% averaging 6,499 damage per hit
Hit 46.4% averaging 2,123 damage per hit

Death Coil
Hit 60.0% averaging 3,030 damage per hit
Crit 40.0% averaging 6,186 damage per hit

Icy Touch
Hit 85.7% averaging 1,419 damage per hit
Crit 14.3% averaging 3,162 damage per hit

Plague Strike
Hit 85.7% averaging 1,796 damage per hit
Crit 14.3% averaging 4,514 damage per hit

Anyone know how to average the hit/crit of each attack and find out which comes out on top after a full rotation? ie. is 1 Scourge Strike > 1 Icy Touch, 1 Plague Strike, and 15% of ~3 Death Coils.

Consider · 12/03/09, 7:01 PM

Not to be rude, but you admit dummies aren't reliable and indicative of anything, yet you still toss numbers from them which prove nothing?

Besides, even were dummies useful for this sort of testing, 4 minute duration is way too small to eliminate RNG and other such factors.

Originally Posted by Nyth_

Well in Live a good reason to use GoD is to roll diseases with high AP behind them. However in 3.3 that won't matter anymore.
In 3.3 however, scourge strike will be significant stronger than PS+IT.

This is exactly right, and really should have ended the discussion. 3.2.2 GoD wins in AoE because of disease rolling and 3.3.0 GoD wins in AoE because of the SS buff.

You appear to be vastly underestimating the SS buff. 1 Scourge Strike will be greater than 1 Icy Touch, 1 Plague Strike, and 15% of ~3 Death Coils.

Think of it this way: As it stands now, 1 SS is about equal to 1 IT and 1 PS. Scourge Strike is getting buffed by approximately 60%. 60% of a current SS is easily superior to 45% of a current DC.

It will be a simple decision, so long as you are already using Pestilence anyways.

Raptør · 12/03/09, 7:06 PM

Originally Posted by Consider

Not to be rude, but you admit dummies aren't reliable and indicative of anything, yet you still toss numbers from them which prove nothing?

Besides, even were dummies useful for this sort of testing, 4 minute duration is way too small to eliminate RNG and other such factors.

This is quite true, but just to show you the math on your small amount of data (That really doesn't matter, raid buff/debuffs and the like)

Originally Posted by ReynorSOE

Anyone know how to average the hit/crit of each attack and find out which comes out on top after a full rotation? ie. is 1 Scourge Strike > 1 Icy Touch, 1 Plague Strike, and 15% of ~3 Death Coils.

3483.464 + 985.072 = 4468.536

((1818+2474.4).15)3) + (1233.223+452.166) + (1539.172+645.502) = 5801.643

Using your data 1IT 1PS and 15% of 3 death coils > Scourge strike

Consider · 12/03/09, 7:10 PM

Yes, currently 1 Icy Touch, 1 Plague Strike, and 15% of ~3 Death Coils > 1 Scourge Strike. But currently you also have additional disease damage to factor in. That really shows nothing, even if it had been in an actual raid setting.

Edit: Don't want to bother with another post, but I didn't realize it was done on the PTR. Which then introduces the problem of your SS numbers being incorrect. Were they taken off recount, or any such thing? Then you need to double the average value due to how such mods handle the two different parts of the new SS. If they were taken off a WoL parse, or what have you, then you should have two different numbers.

Either which way, even more flawed!