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Old 09/09/09, 7:48 PM   #121
Consider
King Hippo
 
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Draenei Death Knight
 
Dragonblight
Upcoming Changes section added to the OP. Very preliminary, but should suffice until actual numbers are calculated.

Technically, the glyph of SS change makes your rotation 60 seconds, not 30, due to death runes and horn cooldown. It's really just best to do as you've always done and think of it not as a rotation but as a priority system (diseases -> rp dump if capped -> FU strike -> blood runes to death runes -> rp dump if not capped -> horn).

Assuming the glyph follows the mechanics of the moonkin and warlock equivalents, it should just add a flat 3 seconds to the disease duration, meaning that yes, they won't be on the same timer (since they will have different timers remaining when that 3 seconds is added). It also means that, yes, no disease clipping. It's a very nice buff, and very well thought out.

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Old 09/09/09, 9:07 PM   #122
Mild Confusion
Piston Honda
 
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Worgen Death Knight
 
Medivh
Here is to hoping that the extra 9 seconds applies to Ebon as well. Blizz has done stranger things in the past.

With this change, we gain 3 talents from annihilation but must now spend 4 for outbreak and scourge strike. This means dropping 1 from either desolation or necrosis. So how valuable is a 30 second rotation vs a 21 rotation, but adding those 2 extra points to max out both desolation and necrosis as a 3rd option?

So with a 30 second rotation (assuming ebon works right) we gain 1 SS and 1 GCD every 60 seconds.

So does IT + PS + maxed necrosis and desolation greater or lesser than 1 SS. Also, what is the chance of raid dps lost if ebon falls off with 30 second diseases?

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Old 09/09/09, 9:11 PM   #123
Consider
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Draenei Death Knight
 
Dragonblight
If the glyph doesn't extend EP, than it becomes worthless. Regardless of the potential raid dps loss, it's a personal dps loss due to the CF portion of the debuff. If EP really is unaffected, then a lot of assumptions change, and not for the better. I can't imagine an oversight of that nature - at least not one which makes it off the PTR - but we'll see, I suppose.

I'm not sure how maxed necrosis/desolation play any role on Glyph of SS. Unless I am missing something stupidly obvious, there's no connection. Otherwise, 1 SS > 1 PS and 1 IT, especially with the new Subversion.

Edit: Oh, oh. I see what you're saying. That's a poor comparison though. Even without the Glyph of SS change, the new Subversion + the new Dirge + Glyph of UB = SS wins out regardless (probably, anyways - that's what needs to be determined exactly), so you can't just say "GoSS is only a dps increase if it's better than 1 talent point + 1 SS - 1 PS - 1 IT". That's not the central point. It's "Is 3/10/58 better than 3/13/55 when you account for the new Subversion + the new Dirge + either Glyph of Unholy Blight or Glyph of Scourge Strike".

The extra talent point issue isn't Glyph related, and the new Glyph is not the turning point in the Ob vs SS matter.

Last edited by Consider : 09/09/09 at 9:33 PM.

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Old 09/09/09, 9:26 PM   #124
Mild Confusion
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Medivh
Indirect connection. I'm talking about 3/10/50 maxed epidemic vs 3/10/58 maxed necrosis and desolation.

In the maxed epidemic spec, we get 30 second diseases that gain us 1 SS every 60 seconds, but we lose 1 talent point in either necrosis or desolation.

In the maxed necrosis and desolation build, we lose that extra SS every 60 seconds and have 24 second diseases.

So is 1 SS more dps than IT, PS, and 2 talent points.

SS will hit harder and crit more as well as free up 1 GCD every 60 seconds which can be used for a DC, especially on a fight with much use of AMS.

Edit: Not talking about oblit, I know the dirge and subversion changes will kill that.

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Old 09/09/09, 9:45 PM   #125
Consider
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Dragonblight
I misunderstood, I see. My apologies.

So if I am understanding correctly this time, you're essentially trying to see if using GoSS in place of Epidemic and following your regular rotation is a dps boost over taking Epidemic and GoSS?

If so, I'm thinking the former is superior. It comes down to 2 talent points or the difference between 1 GCD every 30 seconds and 1 SS/20 seconds minus 1 PS + 1 IT/20 seconds.

I completely missed that possibility when reading the glyph change. Interesting. And then you also have to compare 2 talent points or the difference between 1 GCD every 30 seconds and 1 SS/20 seconds minus 1 PS + 1 IT/20 seconds or Glyph of Unholy Blight. Time for some math.

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Old 09/09/09, 9:46 PM   #126
dr_AllCOM3
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Orc Death Knight
 
Blutkessel (EU)
The new SS glyph doesn't work at all on the PTR.

Bone Shield's 1min cooldown should be nice with a BT macro.

I could modify the sim for 3.2.2, the new SS glyph screams for a sim .

Edit:
No Dirge on OB is a 250dps loss.
The SS glyph is worth 250dps, compared to no glyph.
Overall you do slightly less dps than now. OB isn't better anymore and the old 12-0-59 is king again.

Last edited by dr_AllCOM3 : 09/09/09 at 10:46 PM.


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Old 09/09/09, 10:07 PM   #127
Mild Confusion
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Medivh
I didn't consider a 3rd option with epidemic and UB glyph.

I know UB depends person to person, but from my most recent parse (a couple weeks old cause of a broken hand), my overall UB dps was 2.1%. 40% of that would add about .84%. This is with a 3/15/55 spec.

Might not be the strongest option. Guess we'll see

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Old 09/09/09, 10:08 PM   #128
Lucyford
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Crushridge
Originally Posted by Consider View Post
I misunderstood, I see. My apologies.

So if I am understanding correctly this time, you're essentially trying to see if using GoSS in place of Epidemic and following your regular rotation is a dps boost over taking Epidemic and GoSS?

If so, I'm thinking the former is superior. It comes down to 2 talent points or the difference between 1 GCD every 30 seconds and 1 SS/20 seconds minus 1 PS + 1 IT/20 seconds.

I completely missed that possibility when reading the glyph change. Interesting. And then you also have to compare 2 talent points or the difference between 1 GCD every 30 seconds and 1 SS/20 seconds minus 1 PS + 1 IT/20 seconds or Glyph of Unholy Blight. Time for some math.

It seems upon first consideration that not taking epidemic in favor of maxing necrosis (~.7% per talent) and desolation (~1% per point) would probably be an increase over 1 scourge strike per 30 seconds, but it needs to be compared against at least two alternatives that I can think of.

1) glyph of SS and epidemic, with 4/5 necrosis and 4/5 desolation -30s rotation
2) glyph of UB and epidemic, 4/5 and 4/5 -20s

At this point in time I can't run any numbers on that, and they would be fruitless since it would be only for my gear, but Consider, when you're crunching numbers, a look at both of those would be in order.

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Old 09/09/09, 10:10 PM   #129
Consider
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Dragonblight
2 points in Necrosis/Desolation >= GoUD > 1 point in Necrosis/Desolation. Using the current sim, it's easy enough to see that much, so there is that.

It's more between the other two options then.

Edit: Also, to the above, Desolation is more like ~0.85% dps a point (it only affects your damage, remember, not that of you and your ghoul/garg/army).

Last edited by Consider : 09/09/09 at 10:36 PM.

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Old 09/09/09, 10:46 PM   #130
NeuroMedivh
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Greymane
Glyph of SS doesn't work at all on the PTR, gotta wait till next build before testing it out apparently.

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Old 09/09/09, 11:13 PM   #131
slant
Don Flamenco
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Drenden
Also, the sigil of virulence proc buff has been changed to "Unholy Force" and the T9 2P bonus to "Unholy Might", so we don't have three identically named "Unholy Strength" procs to watch now.

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Old 09/09/09, 11:37 PM   #132
Lucyford
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Crushridge
Originally Posted by slant View Post
Also, the sigil of virulence proc buff has been changed to "Unholy Force" and the T9 2P bonus to "Unholy Might", so we don't have three identically named "Unholy Strength" procs to watch now.
This is amazing, and solves my problem from earlier. Nice catch!

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Old 09/10/09, 1:16 AM   #133
Yaly
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Wrathbringer (EU)
I know it doesn´t fit good to the topic.

What is about 2/17/54?

dr_AllCOM3 I don´t think 12/0/59 will outbeat the 3/10/58 (bladet armor does not scale good enough)

I personally think one SS is more DPS then Necrosis or Desolation maxed out even if you crit quite often with white Hits (SS is top of the DPS list, then White Dmg, then DC then everything else. I still hope someone does the math, cause it´s long time ago i´ve tested this with totaly different gear and sigil)

Last edited by Yaly : 09/10/09 at 2:02 AM.

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Old 09/10/09, 1:47 AM   #134
Consider
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Dragonblight
I guess my estimates on the numbers were a bit conservative and on the low side, but I was at least right in the fact that the loss to Ob would be near equal to the gain to SS. Yay for napkin math.

Are you sure 12/0/59 is superior, however? Based on the past, I find that hard to believe - 0/10/61 was always accepted as ultimately scaling better (Black Ice + 3 extra points in Necrosis or whatever > Bladed Armor + 2H spec), and that was back in Ulduar. Factoring in TotC, you would think the gap would only have widened. None of the changes should have really shifted this - Subversion becomes mandatory, yes, but is that really enough to offset the scaling?

Curious if you ran both specs and, if so, what the difference was. Also curious if it's possible to get a hold of a PTR version of the sim myself/ourself to play with.

Anyways, updated the OP to reflect the possibility of an epidemic-less build. I also added in 12/0/59. I didn't entertain the idea of an epidemic-less 12/0/59 since the main gain of no epidemic is the two extra talent points - in 12/0/59, you already have Necrosis and Desolation maxed out, and IUP/GF are still not strict dps increases.

Last edited by Consider : 09/10/09 at 2:12 AM.

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Old 09/10/09, 2:07 AM   #135
Yaly
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Wrathbringer (EU)
Black Ice scales the SS too, but i don´t want to tatally doubt it, there are many gear changes like weapon DPS.

Last edited by Yaly : 09/10/09 at 2:21 AM.

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