[top]Generalized Rotation

Crewell · 12/08/09, 6:02 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

Did you use the new IT glyph?

I've also noticed the GoD behaviour today while building a 3.3 set.
Using the given 3.3 spec with the new IT glyph or GoD, the items I wear right now and set bonuses switched to T10:
IT: 10126 dps
GoD: 10339 dps

60s fights:
IT: 11938 dps
GoD: 11896 dps

Better weapon and some more Str:
IT: 11039 dps
GoD: 11273 dps

Let's say the glyphs are equal. The better aoe glyph will win. I'm not exactly sure about it, since both provide aoe benefits. Some quick and dirty sim tests result in GoD being much better than the IT glyph.

With these numbers was it against a single target tank and spank type simulation? I ask because a lot of the ICC bosses have fights with multiple target switching and running around. Those type of fights always seem to favor a different glyph from Disease (GoIT for Unholy and GoDD for Blood).

Consider · 12/08/09, 6:35 PM

Editted the OP with GoD being one of the default single target glyphs. I hadn't tested it recently, but the above posts are all quite correct. Which is superior in AoE doesn't really matter as both are going to be superior to anything but GoDnD in such a scenario.

Dropping GoDD, however, seems to be a better option from my testing. The difference between dropping it in GoIT is all but negligible, but GoIT gains in value with additional targets (even if the fight isn't an AoE one, strictly speaking).

It's something I'll continue to do the numbers on, but I'm pretty sure it's correct. I apologize for forgetting it initially - didn't look too much into it after the GoD change and the sim not initially working with the new one correctly.

Of the fights I've experienced on the PTR (all the US ones available), there isn't a one where GoD would be suboptimal. Yes, some fights have you constantly switching targets... but you would be constantly Pest'ing anyways.

The thing one has to remember is that the new SS scales very well - probably too well. Due to how it double dips with so many modifiers and with crit, it will go from being a quarter of our overall dps at initial gearing levels to over a third as ICC progresses. This is part of the reason why ArP will gain such value - more than you would expect - and part of the reason why GoD is so valuable even without rolling.

It does mean I'll have to do a new round of EP values and such (which I was going to do anyways as discussed on the other page), but whatever. Crit rating, ArP, and weapon dps will all go up some in value. Haste will go down some. That's about it. Hit > Str > Crit > Exp > ArP > Agi > Haste, still, and as gear progresses Hit > Str > ArP > Crit > Exp > Agi > Haste. Doesn't change the order of stats, and thus really anything gearing wise.

dr_AllCOM3 · 12/08/09, 6:49 PM

I like the GoDD, because in many boss encounters I nuke stuff while running. Also my quick sim testing show the GoDD to be better at single and aoe damage.

The result are strange btw, I have to take a look in the source code. FF's damage seems to be too low with the glyph.
Edit: The glyph does nothing.

Sythral · 12/08/09, 6:49 PM

Originally Posted by Consider

Editted the OP with GoD being one of the default single target glyphs. I hadn't tested it recently, but the above posts are all quite correct. Which is superior in AoE doesn't really matter as both are going to be superior to anything but GoDnD in such a scenario.

With that being said, I believe you have a typo in the new single target rotation. The bolded BS cannot be done since you will be using a BR for Pest

Originally Posted by Consider

[top]Generalized Rotation

[top]Single Target

Initial:

IT – PS – BS – BS – SS– DC – HoW

SS – DC – SS – SS – DC – (DC)

SS – Pest – BS – BS – SS – DC – HoW

Larisroth · 12/08/09, 6:53 PM

The GoD behaviour in the sim is still broken. Although I believe it won't try to optimize diseases anymore. This can be to the detriment of the GoD builds in a lot of cases. It is particularly apparent if you compare builds by running sims with an intial startup sequence and then run a rotation. Using that option I think leads to more stable comparisons at least in good gear. While a priority might resemble what you end up doing in practice, it can end up using death runes in bad ways.

I've fixed that bug, and one to do with the startup sequence not working correctly in a local copy of the sim, but sadly it's on my home computer and we've just moved house and they screwed up our internet, however it should be back later on tonight.

GoD can be okay for target switching if you can manage to use it to spread the diseases to the new target, which works quite well in boss + spawn fights.

Very short target switching fights are going to be a problem for unholy specs no matter what glyphs we have, because it does take quite a bit of time for our damage to ramp up to maximum.

All four single target glyphs are pretty close in dps value in current gear. GoD is actually the strongest, but requires a new rigid rotation to use to the best advantage, and can't always be used. It will also scale best with the new set bonuses and crit and ArPen heavy gear (none of the others get any advantage from more ArPen). GoDD is quite hard to get a good gauge on, because it depends on how much supplementary RP you get coming in, it also doesn't really gain much for multi-target situations. GoIT is good in a multiple target fight. GotG is good in fights where your ghoul can continue to attack, or in fights with quick spawns, but doesn't scale with crit.

Consider · 12/08/09, 6:59 PM

Such errors in the sim I'm aware of Doc. I used manual math and such to reach the conclusion to my satisfaction. Its a bother, but has its place!

That typo is not there. You must be seeing things.

At any rate, yes, all four of them are very close. GoD scales the best. GoD and GoIT gain in value for multiple targets. GoDD loses value on multiple targets (less RP produced), although gains on AMS friendly fights. GotG is constant between single target and AoE. Even if one assumes that all four are equal in single target value (which they aren't: GoD > GotG > GoIT = GoDD, from my findings, but I could be wrong, and it is minor differences), then GoD, GotG, and GoIT become the natural choices. In my opinion, anyways.

dr_AllCOM3 · 12/08/09, 7:15 PM

I've fixed the IT glyph. On a single target they are very equal, but the IT glyph is better at aoe damage. Your opinion is right, the IT glyph is better than GoDD.

No I have to look into the GoD priority issue Larisroth mentioned.

Neddie · 12/08/09, 7:27 PM

Originally Posted by Consider

That typo is not there. You must be seeing things.

I'll have to second the typo theory:

Initial: IT – PS – BS – BS – SS– DC – HoW

SS – DC – SS – SS – DC – (DC)

SS – Pest – BS – BS – SS – DC – HoW

BBFFUU -> IT -> BBF_UU
BBF_UU -> PS -> BBF_U_
BBF_U_ -> BS -> B_F_U_
B_F_U_ -> BS -> __F_U_
__F_U_ -> SS -> ______
______ -> DC -> ___F__
___F__ -> HoW -> ___F_U

___F_U -> SS -> ______
______ -> DC -> _D____
wait
DD____ -> SS -> __F_U_
__F_U_ -> SS -> ______
______ -> DC -> ___F_U
___F_U -> SS -> BB____
BB____ -> Pest -> B_____
B_____ -> BS -> ______

Here, you call for another BS but your previous Pest and BS used up your two blood runes, and since this is an unholy build your death runes are converted blood runes.

I think the rotation has to be (assuming the Glyph of Diseases):

Initial: IT – PS – BS – BS – SS– DC – HoW

SS – DC – SS – SS – DC – (DC)

SS – Pest – BS – SS – DC – HoW

Moohane · 12/08/09, 7:35 PM

I just tested the GoD rotation on a target dummy, and my blood runes were not up in time to do a pestilence when they should be for this rotation. (90ms 56fps)

Consider · 12/08/09, 7:50 PM

You would be right, Moohane. Not sure how I missed that. Regardless, it's simply enough to fix - Blood Tap.

After the two strings of the rotation Blood Tap + Pestilence, then continue. It will change when one of your SSs occur, but it won't have any affect on your dps. Trying to decide on how best to phrase/show this in the OP.

There's probably a really obvious way it's supposed to be done which I'm somehow missing, but whatever.

Edit: Guildie caught my error.

Initial:

IT – PS – BS – Pest – SS– DC – HoW

SS – DC – SS – SS – DC – (DC)

SS – BS – Pest – SS – DC – HoW

Is how it should be done. Yes, you lose an additional BS initially, but that's the same as having to use Blood Tap, except with this you aren't tied to Blood Tap's cooldown - not to mention it looks much cleaner on paper, and leaves BT open for other uses that first minute of a fight.

Larisroth · 12/08/09, 8:40 PM

DOC:
IIRC the GoD issue was that it reset the AP but didn't actually recalculate the damage, or the crit chance etc. I modified it to save when the nextTick was and then reapply the debuff before fixing up the next tick.

The other bug is a bit messier, if you use a ability in your startup sequence that doesn't use a GCD, then it'll also try an action from your rotation or priority. This can screw up using ERW in the startup sequence. I fixed it by always just doing one action from the startup/rotation/priority but that whole main loop is a bit ugly.

I also think the EP values are calculated wrongly, and that it should use the gears hit and expertise and only change them if they're the stats under consideration. It would require calculated extra base values for those passes, but given that the expertise / hit rating weightings are largely useless (I pretty much run spell hit and expertise capped) I think it's probably better to get more accurate values for the other stats instead.

I think IT - PS - SS - BS - Pest is probably a marginally better startup sequence as it means there's more chance of procs being up for your initial disease reapplication, although it might make sense to use ERW as part of the opener to align all your rune cooldowns.

How best to use blood tap is an interesting discussion, because the need to have your blood runes refresh as close as possible together, and the tight 1 second leeway you have on your pestilence. I can see after a couple of minutes of using blood tap to get extra strikes in you might have a problem.

Of course with the GoD change it's not the end of the world if your diseases drop off. Looking at my numbers with 4 piece T10 and ArPen gearr, you can probably screw up every minute and it'll still come out as the best glyph.

Taldanis · 12/08/09, 8:53 PM

So, I've been trying out this rotation on a target dummy for the past hour or so. My conclusion is that it is barely workable. With my admittedly bad connection I mess up something at least every 2 minutes or so. It also seems like any fight with any movement that takes one out of melee range of the boss will result in diseases falling off and the net gain from GoD being negated. My question is: What is the dps difference between the GoD rotation and the rotation using GoDD that was on the OP last week? Is it so minor that the advantages in fights where there is movement or the general ease of the rotation more than makes up for the loss in theoretical dps?

Alatyr · 12/08/09, 8:56 PM

I'm in a raid right now and unable to test, but does a GoD refresh apply the bonus from Rage of Rivendare to the diseases? My initial testing says yes, but I'm testing in a live environment, so there are some variables I can't control.

Spekt0r · 12/08/09, 10:10 PM

I'm having real trouble getting my head around the 2 points spent in Morbidity over 2 points in Necrosis in the latest incarnation of the spec. In any given encounter I would melee twice as much as I would Death Coil, leaving me only seeing 8% Necrosis as producing more damage than 10% to Death Coil. Is the damage difference being outweighed in value by the decrease in cooldown to DnD or am I flat out wrong in their being any increase in damage when using Necrosis?

Consider · 12/08/09, 10:24 PM

The decrease in cooldown to DnD is very, very large. It's a must for any fight where you use it, and easily outweighs the fact that, yes, 8% auto-attack damage is superior to 10% death coil damage.

I suppose you could have a single target spec without it and an AoE spec with it.