Elitist Jerks Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything

 12/09/09, 10:48 AM #1366 bjados Glass Joe   Agostine Night Elf Death Knight   Laughing Skull EDIT: This post used to contain theorycrafting on the Deathbringer's Will uptime, weight, and ultimate value compared to other trinkets. However, due to the rapidly evolving weights, the originally calculated values no longer stand. Based on the latest EAP values, the sheer increase in ArP value pushes both Deathbringer's Will over even Heroic Death's Verdict, even if haste (a very much worthless stat now) procs. While I am adamant in my belief that DW is on a 105s CD based on numerous 3rd party trials, I am still uncertain of the proc selection, however according to a recent post (as of the time of writing this) on Wowhead, players are finding that the procs vary based on their current spec. While Unholy, the trinket is proc'ing STR/Crit/Haste and while Blood it procs STR/Crit/ArP. This information, while furthering the probability that the three proc types are hard-coded by Bliz based on your spec, is still not conclusive. In the mean-time, as of 12/10 and until more concise stat weights emerge, accept with a grain of salt that both DW are currently BiS trinkets. This also assumes that you can receive and benefit from both procs of DW and DW(H) within one ICD. Otherwise, currently, Crystal Fanged Skull(H) becomes the second BiS trinket. I will leave below an equation, rather than my math, for calculating the value of DW. It is up to you to stay up to date on stat weights and apply them. I hope this will allow people to stay more up to speed with their trinket selection. 600*(Str EAP+Crit EAP+Haste EAP)/3*(30s/105s) + 155*ArP EAP = SCORE For comparion, DV is simply: 450*Str EAP*(30s/90s) + 256*AP EAP = SCORE Last edited by bjados : 12/10/09 at 4:01 PM. Reason: Updated stat weights to reflect T10 / Additional info in proc selection revealed.
 12/09/09, 10:55 AM #1367 Viso3000 Glass Joe     Imbabunny Night Elf Death Knight   Hakkar (EU) Ok, i've tried the rotation on the main page, but i have some problem. When i must refresh disease with Pest there is always only 1 sec left on my disease, with a little lag i must restart the rotation. in a situation when you have a bad connection is better going with the old rotation with GoDD instead of GoD?? Edit: Another problem is that Pest is a spell so if you aren't spell hit capped you can miss it (for example in a raid without +3% spell hit on boss) Last edited by Viso3000 : 12/09/09 at 11:06 AM.
12/09/09, 11:03 AM   #1368
Afabar
Don Flamenco

Draenei Death Knight

Chants Eternels (EU)
 Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3 The result are strange btw, I have to take a look in the source code. FF's damage seems to be too low with the glyph. Edit: The glyph does nothing.
I just forgot to remove Glyph of Icy Touch II. You should use the "Glyph of Icy Touch" in the latest version. I will remove the useless one in the next version.

 12/09/09, 11:17 AM #1369 Talimar Von Kaiser   Talimar Undead Warlock   Kazzak (EU) I'm having issues with the "fixed" glyph of disease. I respecced unholy today from blood and went ahead to VOA. There I learned that pestilence doesn't refresh diseases on bosses. But it worked just fine on the trash mobs. Anyone else having this issue?
12/09/09, 11:23 AM   #1370
Consider
King Hippo

Draenei Death Knight

Dragonblight
GoD simply doesn't work on the VoA bosses now. It's not a GoD issue, but a VoA issue, as the glyph works just fine everywhere else. Who knows how that bug came about.

 When i must refresh disease with Pest there is always only 1 sec left on my disease, with a little lag i must restart the rotation. in a situation when you have a bad connection is better going with the old rotation with GoDD instead of GoD??
Yes.

 12/09/09, 11:45 AM #1371 Leaflock Don Flamenco     Hewn Orc Death Knight   Blackhand One other point to consider when comparing GoD with GoDD is that the GoDD rotation doesn't require 2/2 Epidemic-- in fact, as I quickly discovered back on the PTR, the second point is wasted since the final tick is clipped. 2/2 is necessary for the GoD rotation, but you get the same number of disease ticks per 20-second rotation since you have to refresh before it falls off-- the total disease damage remains the same. So, with GoD you need 2/2 Epidemic to sustain it and can only afford 2/3 Morbidity, but with GoDD you can use 1/2 Epidemic and 3/3 Morbidity. The damage difference in DC between the two glyphs/specs is then slightly higher. I did napkin math on a WoL parse from last night (Deathbringer Saurfang, I stayed on the boss the majority of the time) and roughly calculated that the potential gain from having used GoD rotation/spec there (~75 dps) was outweighed by the potential damage loss to DC (~170 dps), at least for a single target situation. While this is only napkin math from one parse based on average damage of the appropriate abilities, I think taking the correct spec into account in the comparison will find GoDD and GoD closer than is being estimated by some.
 12/09/09, 12:03 PM #1372 Consider King Hippo     Consider Draenei Death Knight   Dragonblight The total disease damage does not remain the same, as BP is then being applied without RoR. As well, if you are the sole provider of EP in your raid, the damage from that dropping is much too high to even attempt to calculate. On Saurfang you would want to use GoD whether or not you would normally, so that's a poor fight to try and make your argument! That said, GoD gives more than a 75 dps gain - far more. My Saurfang from last night, in which I didn't even use GoD optimally or perform well in general. With an average SS of 12125, an average BS of 3715, an average PS of 3796, and an average IT of 2144 equates to a 2470/20 = 123 dps gain from GoD right there. Factor in the increased disease damage that it provides, and it goes much higher - GoD increases one's average disease damage by about 10%, usually. By contrast, if I had used GoDD + a point of Necrosis (better than Morbidity) I would have gained 2.2% dps, or 210 dps... at the cost of however much disease damage I gained from GoD as well as the cost of my BP never benefitting from RoR. Even being generous in the disease damage numbers, napkin math would support GoD, not GoDD. Besides, one of the strengths of GoD is how well it scales (since it's scaling is heavily tied in with that of SS). GoDD simply doesn't scale near as well, especially since DC becomes a smaller portion of our DPS as we progress through ICC (while SS becomes larger).
12/09/09, 12:33 PM   #1373
Vectivus
foreign contaminant

Tauren Death Knight

Mal'Ganis
Has anyone done the math on whether or not putting the points that are currently in Dirge into something else (Necrosis, perhaps?) would be a net gain? My quick napkin math shows that it takes 8 full rotations to gain 5 additional Death Coils, and I can't help but wonder if - during that ~160s - the additional auto-attack damage wouldn't outweigh it (especially now that we're dropping GoDD).

 Originally Posted by Theras Frankly I don't know how you non-Nordic people can breed in good conscience.

 12/09/09, 12:44 PM #1374 Consider King Hippo     Consider Draenei Death Knight   Dragonblight I've tested it before in the sim and such, and it doesn't work out, even without GoDD and only 2/3 Morbidity. Short version: Using my previously linked parse (simply because I'm too lazy to drudge up another one), my average DC was 5818 (+ UB = 6400). Dirge gives 2.5 RP per SS per 20 seconds per talent point, or a total of 12.5 RP (31.25% of a DC) per 20 seconds. That's 6400 x .3125 = 2000 damage per 20 seconds, or 100 DPS per talent point. That's more than Necrosis (which typically gives about ~.7% more dps per point on a single target, which is obviously less).
12/09/09, 1:12 PM   #1375
Alatyr
Von Kaiser

Draenei Death Knight

Icecrown
Glyph of Disease currently does not refresh diseases with the benefit from Rage of Rivendare. To gain the benefit from RoR, diseases must be applied manually while Blood Plague is on the target. Once diseases are applied with the benefit from RoR, they can be rolled with GoD and still retain the benefit.

Another note of interest, if your diseases on your primary target have the benefit of RoR and are passed to secondary targets via Pestilence, the diseases on the secondary targets do not retain the benefit of RoR. If diseases are still active on the secondary targets and are passed again using Pestilence, they will gain the benefit of RoR.

This leads us back into unfortunate contortions for maximizing disease damage. Perhaps this would be a good alternative method for opening?

 Initial: PS – IT – SS – BS – Pest – BT/PS
 SS – SS – SS SS – BS – Pest – SS

Note that opening with Plague Strike would be required in this sequence so that Frost Fever would gain the benefit from RoR.

EDIT: This rotation is untenable, I made a mistake on Blood Tap mechanics.

Last edited by Alatyr : 12/10/09 at 12:55 PM.

 12/09/09, 1:13 PM #1376 Tscullor Glass Joe   Keimonu Night Elf Death Knight   Eonar (EU) Sorry if this is repetition, but I'm currently having two issues with the 3.3 rotation. Firstly, am I correct in thinking that diseases no longer "roll", as it were, so I don't have to worry about my AP when initially applying diseases? Secondly, I'm having trouble with the GoD rotation, as whenever I go to Pestilence, my diseases always have <1 second left on their duration, meaning that any variation (Movement, CCs, etc) in a fight mean that my diseases drop off. Is this an issue, DPS-wise, or do I just go back to the initial rotation and start again? Is using Glyph of Scourge Strike totally out of the question to allow for more lenient pests? Last edited by Tscullor : 12/09/09 at 1:35 PM.
 12/09/09, 1:23 PM #1377 Demøsthenes Banned   Malfuryus Draenei Shaman   Deathwing In regards to Glyphs, for the new 3.3 changes on the dummy before changing Glyph of Dark Death out for Glyph of Disease, I was holding higher sustained dps as opposed to the 300 dps lost I noticed when I switched to the recommended Glyph of Disease. I would allow disease to completely tick off and then immeadiatly re apply them. I am wondering if I am perhaps clipping my dots? With DK diseases and mods up is there anything I should be looking for? I have read on the frost forums that Re applying disease should be done at around 2 sec remaining, but with lag and everything is this a good idea, would re appling them at perhaps say a 7 be more beneficial if you are expierincing some lag? So the question boils down to when is best dps gain to re apply diseases using the pestilence glyph?
 12/09/09, 1:33 PM #1378 jc8587 Glass Joe   Deathrebz Human Death Knight   Altar of Storms First I would like to thank Consider for this great thread. Second I would like to discuss the attack rotations and my experiences with them. Using Considers recommended 17/0/54 build, and staying in BP, I have set each attack rotation "stage" in seperate castsequence macros. I will hit the frist macro 7 times, the second 6 (assuming there is enough RP for DC), and the third 6. If I "spam" these macros to ensure the fastest timing possible I still get to Pestilence with <1 second to spare on Frost Fever. While sparring on a dummy, pestilence is easily met in time to recast FF, but while in a raid, pvp, ect... it seems difficult to pop Pestilence within the short amount of time needed. Is there any way to rearrange the second stage to include pestilence near the end of the rotation, or to place it sooner in the third attack stage? Theoretically I'd like to leave a buffer time to ensure maximum dps from Frost Fever, as we are using Glyph of IT.
12/09/09, 1:45 PM   #1379
Vectivus
foreign contaminant

Tauren Death Knight

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by jc8587 Is there any way to rearrange the second stage to include pestilence near the end of the rotation, or to place it sooner in the third attack stage? Theoretically I'd like to leave a buffer time to ensure maximum dps from Frost Fever, as we are using Glyph of IT.
You can't use Pestilence any earlier in the rotation, as the last runes to get used in the 3x SS part of the rotation will be the Death (Blood) runes. They won't be up any sooner than that.

 Originally Posted by Theras Frankly I don't know how you non-Nordic people can breed in good conscience.

12/09/09, 1:58 PM   #1380
jc8587
Glass Joe

Human Death Knight

Altar of Storms
 Originally Posted by Vectivus You can't use Pestilence any earlier in the rotation, as the last runes to get used in the 3x SS part of the rotation will be the Death (Blood) runes. They won't be up any sooner than that.
I see.

Is it worth deleting a SS in order to ensure Frost Fever? It is my understanding that SS is now this builds most prominent DPS adder?

 Elitist Jerks Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything