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12/10/09, 12:19 PM
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#1426
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Death Knight
Arygos
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Originally Posted by level12wizard
The problem with using
PS – IT – SS – BS – Pest – BT/PS
as an opener is that using Blood Tap and Plague Strike ruins the Death Runes you got from Blood Strike and Pestilence. You'd be left with a rune set of BDFUFU, ruining a potential Scourge Strike.
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The blood tap buff should remain up and keep that rune as a death rune, so you should still be able to SS.
Haven't tested in game though, and I have seen blood tap behave oddly before, so can't confirm for sure.
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12/10/09, 12:36 PM
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#1427
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Piston Honda
Orc Death Knight
Tichondrius
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While it probably did work with the original incarnation of Blood Tap in 3.0, it does not work with the current Blood Tap mechanics. I have tested it in game several times to be sure.
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12/10/09, 12:38 PM
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#1428
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Glass Joe
Gnome Death Knight
Bonechewer
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Originally Posted by Consider
264/277 (ICC) mix, w/ T10 Bonuses:
| AttackPower | 1 | | Strength | 2.94 | | Agility | 2.13 | | CritRating | 2.88 | | HasteRating | 1.25 | | ArmorPenetrationRating | 3.01 | | ExpertiseRating | 4.21 | | BeforeMeleeHitCap<8% | 6.62 | | SpellHitRating | -2.85 | | WeaponDPS | 8.18 | | WeaponSpeed | 441.56 |
(Not sure what spell hit is doing, but everything else is logical enough)
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Considering that ARP scales with the more you have. Is there any way to factor that in to EP values seeing as it surely not a constant. For someone who has lower ARP within their gear, the EP values would assumably be lower. Likewise someone who is able to pick up gear that incurs more ARP the value would seemingly increase. Not sure how this could be factored and a constant value still seems like only way to deal with it.
I was just curious if the EP value of 3.01 is considering 100% ARP or considering a starting value of 0%.
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12/10/09, 12:47 PM
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#1429
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King Hippo
Draenei Death Knight
Dragonblight
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It's not just ArP which ArP scales with. It's also weapon dps and strength/AP. Although a chart which shows ArP being worth X at Y value of ArP, Z value of weapon dps, and Q value of strength/AP would be amazing, it would also be amazingly difficult and time intensive to generate, if possible to do at all.
I do recognize the issue, but it's not one with an easy solution, unfortunately. It's not one with a moderately difficult solution, for that matter. The best I could do for the time being is have the stat weights by tier, but the main problems lies in the fact that ArP's growth spurt occurs almost completely in ICC. I'm not really sure what I can do about it. If anyone has a potential fix, I would love to hear it. Most frustrating ><.
The ilvl 264/277 stat weights were generated using an ilvl 264/277 set - which means it had about 800 ArP. I forget off the top of my head what percent that is, but neither 0% or 100%.
Edit: Also, on a completely different note, after some playing with numbers and such, I think the sim got the spell hit values right, it simply made them negative instead of positive.
Edit 2: To the below, since I'm about to run out the door and don't have time for a full post: 277 weapon (325 dps), ~2600 str, ~800 ArP, ~1250 CritR. Hit/Exp caps (alliance). Next to no haste. T10 bonuses. So on. I can post the specifics when I get back, although that should give a rough picture. The ilvl 245/258 set was simply 3.3 BiS from TotC - ~2200 str, ~350 ArP, 285 dps weapon, and such.
Last edited by Consider : 12/10/09 at 1:00 PM.
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12/10/09, 12:52 PM
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#1430
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Glass Joe
Human Death Knight
Arygos
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Consider, if you could, please list the ~arpen, or even all the major stats, on the sets for each stat weight distributions you listed?
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12/10/09, 1:00 PM
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#1431
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Von Kaiser
Draenei Death Knight
Icecrown
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Originally Posted by arnham
The blood tap buff should remain up and keep that rune as a death rune, so you should still be able to SS.
Haven't tested in game though, and I have seen blood tap behave oddly before, so can't confirm for sure.
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Agreed, the rotation I listed above doesn't work. That's my fault, I made a mistake on BT mechanics, and I've edited my previous posts to avoid confusion.
This may just need to be a hit that GoD builds take on Blood Plague. The way SS scales, the extra SS you get out of GoD has to out-weigh the small DPS loss from lowered BP damage (and keep in mind that my 65 DPS figure is with 4pT9). However, it does mean that we should open with Plague Strike instead of Icy Touch, even if starting at range.
Of course, all this is meaningless if you can get another DK to put Blood Plague up before you do.
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12/10/09, 1:09 PM
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#1432
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Protector
Ashstrike
Human Paladin
No WoW Account
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Originally Posted by Consider
I do recognize the issue, but it's not one with an easy solution, unfortunately. It's not one with a moderately difficult solution, for that matter. The best I could do for the time being is have the stat weights by tier, but the main problems lies in the fact that ArP's growth spurt occurs almost completely in ICC. I'm not really sure what I can do about it. If anyone has a potential fix, I would love to hear it. Most frustrating ><.
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ArP is not a linearly scaling stat, but due to AoE being everywhere (seems worth using on Sarfang even with the 70% damage nerf) you would never want to gem it. However, you do want to pick it up naturally with gear, so just listing that caveat should satisfy that issue.
Regarding ArP, 1 ArPen Rating ~= .07% Armor Reduced, so that is 57% armor ignoring (1401 is the hard cap).
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12/10/09, 1:59 PM
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#1433
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Death Knight
Spinebreaker (EU)
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Ok, with the last revision of stat weights and gems. It seems with Trial of the Crusader and Ice Crown Citadel gear we will use alot of 10 str + 10 crit in yellow sockets.. am I wrong? Forgive my English please.
edit: corrected the gem its crit not stamina..sorry,
Last edited by Obeidat : 12/10/09 at 2:13 PM.
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12/10/09, 2:09 PM
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#1434
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
Kroot
Orc Death Knight
No WoW Account
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Originally Posted by Obeidat
Ok, with the last revision of stat weights and gems. It seems with Trial of the Crusader and Ice Crown Citadel gear we will use alot of 10 str + 10 stamina in yellow sockets.. am I wrong? Forgive my English please.
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I have no idea where you're getting the idea that you should be using +stam gems, the stat weights clearly indicate that you should be gemming str and crit.
Last edited by Darkside : 12/10/09 at 2:16 PM.
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Originally Posted by Silmeria
See this is how engineers argue! Why the fuck we gotta have 17 page threads on how much Diablo 3 sucks I blame liberal arts majors
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12/10/09, 2:12 PM
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#1435
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Death Knight
Earthen Ring
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Forgive me if this has been answered elsewhere, but my searching around didn't yield a definite answer:
Before 3.3 there was a section in the OP about when it's viable to switch from Unholy Presence to Blood Presence (something like +300 haste), but I notice it's gone now. So does that mean that the optimal rotation assumes we are going to always DPS in Blood Presence regardless of our haste rating?
I've been experimenting with running in both presences and in some cases (trash) it almost feels like UP > BP?
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12/10/09, 2:13 PM
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#1436
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
Kroot
Orc Death Knight
No WoW Account
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Originally Posted by Jirow
Forgive me if this has been answered elsewhere, but my searching around didn't yield a definite answer:
Before 3.3 there was a section in the OP about when it's viable to switch from Unholy Presence to Blood Presence (something like +300 haste), but I notice it's gone now. So does that mean that the optimal rotation assumes we are going to always DPS in Blood Presence regardless of our haste rating?
I've been experimenting with running in both presences and in some cases (trash) it almost feels like UP > BP?
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You should never be in UP as an Unholy DK because:
1) Your AoE isn't affected at all by UP.
2) SS double dips the BP bonus.
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Originally Posted by Silmeria
See this is how engineers argue! Why the fuck we gotta have 17 page threads on how much Diablo 3 sucks I blame liberal arts majors
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12/10/09, 2:15 PM
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#1437
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Death Knight
Spinebreaker (EU)
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Originally Posted by Darkside
I have no idea where your getting the idea that you should be using +stam gems, the stat weights clearly indicate that you should be gemming str and crit.
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Yes, sorry corrected my post. As I understood in all gear (ToC and ICC) that have red and yellow socket with bonus socket higher than the mentioned number we will gem for 10 str+10crit.
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12/10/09, 2:51 PM
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#1438
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Death Knight
Dethecus
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Forgive me if this has already been answered, but I am considering how to gear myself and I am trying to take your "set bonuses" information from the first post and apply it to my build.
These are the average weights of the set bonuses for Unholy DKs. As you can see, T10 is absolutely incredible for Unholy (and Blood/Frost, for that matter), and the sooner you can attain it, the better. Both bonuses are very strong, and worth successors to the ridiculousness of 3.2.2 4P T9.
Set Bonus
Weight
2T7 329.23
4T7 355.38
2T8 89.23
4T8 663.08
2T9 86.15
4T9 495.38
2T10 507.69
4T10 470.77
Statement 1:
I do not have enough dkp to get the trophies, so I am stuck gearing towards the 232 tier 9 set. I have enough triumph badges to get the set though.
I am bewildered at how much of a dps increase from 2t9 to 4t9 is.
#1 question - Did you already remove the crit chance to Icy Touch from your calculations (if you have, a small note in the main thread might help?)
#2 question - Does that mean I should replace my 245 Legplates of Ascension and my 245 Frostforged Helm with the other two 232 pieces in order to get that 400+ dps increase? (We can assume I am hit capped) I was doing calculations on comparing these 245 pieces to the 232 pieces and the dps loss in stats does not add up to over 400... so you are saying it would be a dps increase to go for the four piece bonus..... right?
#3 question - Is that tier 9 bonus based on the 232 gear, the 245 gear, or the 258 gear?
For what it's worth here is my armory currently today:
The World of Warcraft Armory
Thanks for your time and help on this.
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12/10/09, 3:36 PM
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#1439
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Knaledge
(A) Initial: IT – PS – Pestilence – DnD – DC – HoW
(B) SS – BS – BB – SS – DC – DC
(C) SS – Pestilence – DnD – DC – HoW
So following up on our posts from before - there still is a delay (I have to wait for CD) in the above rotation and it really puts a damper on the DPS. I am pinpointing it now. Let me look...
(snippped for brevity)
I'll post more or answer any questions for sure. I am just trying to adopt the most efficient DPS rotation for my spec and figure you might be able to spot some holes.
On a side note - Pestilence always gets cut SO close in the current rotation. It WILL fall off in the current rotation if you make any mistake or delay (literally).
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There should be a free GCD immediately after HoW and no other major gaps. Remember that the interface has never been good at displaying rune ability cooldowns (so don't wait for the interface) and that you are mixing melee GCDs with spell GCDs. Those two factors together can make it seem like there are significant gaps, but there is no design flaw in that rotation that unnecessarily increases its length.
Originally Posted by Nyth_
About the glyph of Disease clipping. I've always noticed a strange occurrence.
In theory you only have 1 second left to refresh diseases with GoD, because diseases last 21 seconds, and a rotation takes 20 seconds.
When I use glyph of diseases however I often notice that I have more than 1 second remaining on diseases when I use pestilence (usually about 2). I don't use GoD that often, so it might just be an odd occurrence. But I noticed that last week when I was tanking ToC (Didn't change my glyphs and normally I have a pvp spec as 2nd spec, which includes GoD).
Maybe it's the rune cushioning acting weird, although that shouldn't keep happening.
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That is supposed to happen in theory. Remember that GoD resets the number of ticks on the disease to its maximum without altering the timing of the disease ticks, so when a glyphed Pestilence refreshes a disease, the disease's "duration" is "reset" to between just over 21 sec and just below 24 sec (assuming 2/2 Epidemic). Since diseases are on 3-sec cycles and the rotation is on a 20-sec cycle, your Pestilence refresh time fluctuates on a 60-sec cycle. The two diseases are on separate cycles, so in practice you are usually on the short end of the refresh leeway for at least one disease on any given Pestilence refresh. Of course, there are a number of ways to manipulate the tick timing further (for example, tabbing to a secondary target and infect your primary target with Pestilenced ticks; all of these things also have consequences on WP, of course).
Originally Posted by Larisroth
Okay using my spreadsheet for comparing glyphs and talents and assuming you PS before IT, then only one point in epidemic is about a 60 dps loss from no RoR on BP, but with 4T9 it's about an 80 dps loss, and that's assuming you don't make any specials in the 2 seconds before your PS.
The extra point in morbidity is worth about 50 dps at 9 DCs per minute. (ignoring the DnD boost).
Finally for reference a point in necrosis is worth about 70 dps (in the ToC unholy gear set).
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Where does your spreadsheet put the last point in Morbidity for AE purposes?
Some pages back somebody concluded that the last point in Morbidity was pointless for AE purposes based on Kahorie's sim putting 20-sec AE rotations slightly ahead of 15-sec AE rotations. My own calculations has always put 15-sec AE rotations substantially ahead of 20-sec AE rotations. I didn't get a chance to look into the discrepancy until recently when I was doing rotation tests on DnD/2pT10-based Frost and Unholy tanking specs I was experimenting with for 3.3.
Realistically, the average rotation length for 3/3 Morbidity DnD rotations is around 15.25 sec, targetting click and all. However, Kahorie's sim rates 3/3 Morbidity DnD rotations at ~16.75+ sec. This is not like the 3.2 Reaping issue where the sim is a couple hundred miliseconds off and you eventually graduate to Reapingless anyway when you get near BiS haste. Kahorie's sim is 15 to 17.5+ hundred miliseconds off here. To make it worse, the increased rotation length also happens to turn very favorable disease refreshes for the 3/3 Morbidity DnD rotations into unfavorable ones.
It's hard to justify dropping a point in Morbidity When you weigh the substantial sustained AE DPS loss against the wee single-target DPS gain.
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12/10/09, 3:50 PM
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#1440
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Consider
Edit: Also, on a completely different note, after some playing with numbers and such, I think the sim got the spell hit values right, it simply made them negative instead of positive.
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If this true, then spell hit is valued higher strength in the ToGC 258 gear set, which would mean I would need to regem everything!
Also, it would render 10str/10crit gems inferior to 10str/10hit gems even after the hit cap for all but the best gear set.
I hope this possible inaccuracy can be resolved, as it would change things for me considerably.
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