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12/10/09, 4:10 PM
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#1441
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Piston Honda
Goblin Death Knight
Korgath
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Spell hit is valued highly because of GoD. Missing the pestilence means your diseases will drop before you can attempt a second pestilence.
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12/10/09, 4:29 PM
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#1442
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Glass Joe
Human Death Knight
Drak'Tharon
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Originally Posted by Sashiel
If this true, then spell hit is valued higher strength in the ToGC 258 gear set, which would mean I would need to regem everything!
Also, it would render 10str/10crit gems inferior to 10str/10hit gems even after the hit cap for all but the best gear set.
I hope this possible inaccuracy can be resolved, as it would change things for me considerably.
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Maybe I missed something, it sounds like you are saying to gem past the spell hit cap. If that is not the case, you might wanna reword what you are asking. If not, could you explain how going over the spell hit cap is important? Last time I checked, if you are spell hit capped, your spells will not miss. Period.
e: Clarity
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12/10/09, 5:04 PM
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#1443
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foreign contaminant
Tauren Death Knight
Mal'Ganis
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Originally Posted by Therosian
Maybe I missed something, it sounds like you are saying to gem past the spell hit cap. If that is not the case, you might wanna reword what you are asking. If not, could you explain how going over the spell hit cap is important? Last time I checked, if you are spell hit capped, your spells will not miss. Period.
e: Clarity
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He's probably referring to the melee hit cap, not the spell hit cap. In general, we don't (and haven't) referred to the spell hit cap as just the hit cap, since it hasn't truthfully affected us in a meaningful way previously.
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Originally Posted by Theras
Frankly I don't know how you non-Nordic people can breed in good conscience.
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12/10/09, 5:13 PM
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#1444
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Glass Joe
Human Death Knight
Shattered Hand
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I have a several questions regarding rotations and gcds. Obviously 3.2 made unholy fairly simple to play. Prior to that the only version of unholy I played was the multiple dw it spam builds (32/39 20/51). So the rotation was always up as in there was rarely any waiting for runes. With the current setup I seem to have some time at various parts where I"m basically just waiting for runes to come up, I'm wondering if this is a normal occurrence for this build or if I'm doing something incorrectly. On that subject. I have around 100ms typically during raids. It's literally impossible for me to do the rotation in the OP as my disease fall off. The other issue is, I saw the post a few pages back that switched the pest from the 2nd half of the rotate from bs-> pest to pest-> bs. This works although still leaves me very little time to refresh, so if a mob moves for more than 1 second I'm basically screwed and have to start all over. I'm just concerned that I'm missing something that I shouldn't be.
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12/10/09, 5:19 PM
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#1445
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Glass Joe
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Is it wise to use Glyph of the Goul, Glyph of Death & Decay and Glyph of Disease for a more versatile build?
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12/10/09, 5:19 PM
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#1446
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Piston Honda
Troll Hunter
Moonglade (EU)
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Originally Posted by Therosian
Maybe I missed something, it sounds like you are saying to gem past the spell hit cap. If that is not the case, you might wanna reword what you are asking. If not, could you explain how going over the spell hit cap is important? Last time I checked, if you are spell hit capped, your spells will not miss. Period.
e: Clarity
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He obviously meant melee hit cap. Could he be more clear? Perhaps. But people on this forum are also assumed to draw some logical conclusions
Originally Posted by Grigori
That is supposed to happen in theory. Remember that GoD resets the number of ticks on the disease to its maximum without altering the timing of the disease ticks, so when a glyphed Pestilence refreshes a disease, the disease's "duration" is "reset" to between just over 21 sec and just below 24 sec (assuming 2/2 Epidemic). Since diseases are on 3-sec cycles and the rotation is on a 20-sec cycle, your Pestilence refresh time fluctuates on a 60-sec cycle. The two diseases are on separate cycles, so in practice you are usually on the short end of the refresh leeway for at least one disease on any given Pestilence refresh. Of course, there are a number of ways to manipulate the tick timing further (for example, tabbing to a secondary target and infect your primary target with Pestilenced ticks; all of these things also have consequences on WP, of course).
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Ah in that way. Well we just cleared ICC25 today with our guild.
I use Forte Xcorsist for my DoT timers, which adjust the timers based on the dot ticks, so that might be why it seems there is still some time left.
Had not much problem keeping Pestilence rolling on Saurfang, but obviously this is a tank and spank fight for melee. I think it dropped off once, but thats just something to take for granted and reapply your diseases. The RoR + GoD issue is a bit annoying though, because it means you have to refresh your diseases twice every time it falls off. (or at least plague strike)
In a tough fight I assume it's better to just go with the non-GoD rotation (IT>PS>BS>BS>SS // SS>SS>SS), and possibly reglyph to GoDD.
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12/10/09, 5:26 PM
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#1447
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Piston Honda
Goblin Death Knight
Korgath
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I have 200ms at best and the rotation is fine. Regardless of whether your opening rotation is PS/IT - BS - Pest - SS or PS/I - SS - BS - Pest, you need to use your 2 death runes from the BS+Pest without delay when they come up so that you have enough time left on diseases when they refresh again as 2 blood runes for the BS - Pest. A common mistake that may happen is that you dump deathcoils just before your death runes become ready and put yourself a gcd behind. Only dump deathcoils when you know you have no runes (even FU) coming off cooldown within the next 1.5s. The reason i say also for FU runes is that delaying your FU scourge strikes may delay when you finally land a scourge strike that uses the 2 death runes. Keep in mind dodges/misses on your scourge strikes may cause similar delay on rune consumption.
As for movement, this is where familiarity and experience comes into play. Use blood tap for an emergency pestilence or pestilence before you move away from the boss.
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12/10/09, 5:51 PM
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#1448
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Von Kaiser
Human Death Knight
Proudmoore
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I have a few things to note here:
Recount does not seem to show currently show Scourge Strike accurately. The highest I've crit (according to Recount) in 3.2.2 ToC gear is 12k, with the average being around 6k and the minimum being under 1k. Ingame scrolling text shows me hitting for double 12ks at times.
But how people are seeing 49k NON-CRIT strikes blows my mind. I realize I'm geared a bit for haste and have little arpen to speak of, but I just can't see ~24k strikes turning into double that without something being very very wrong.
As far as the rotation, I'm having the same trouble as everyone else. Well, sort of. Instead of trying to follow it religiously, I've gotten to a half-priority system:
IT/PS to put up diseases
BS to proc Desolation
Pest to refresh/spread diseases with the Desolation buff attached
SS as core damage, and in my case, to proc SoV
DC to dump RP
HoW to build RP/fill GCD time
It gets to the point where I'm simply spamming SS/DC/HoW and having a hard time measuring when the next BS/Pest should be. The problem comes in when I'm coming toward a Pest refresh spot. There are three things that might happen for me:
1. I used too many Death Runes on SS to be able to BS/Pest in time. Usually in this case I'll pop Blood Tap to squeeze a Pest in before the timer runs out, but it usually burns my BS out of the Pest.
2. I was being careful and reapplied BS/Pest too early and clipped diseases/SS.
3. My BS/Pest have gotten out of whack from popping one early and I'm refreshing them at odd times, sometimes clipping BS out of the Pest, as in #1.
So my question is, when exactly should BS and Pest be reapplied? I see where they are in the rotation, but between mobile fights, switching targets and sometimes getting caught in other roles like CC, I find it hard to keep track of how many SS I've done since the last Pest, and such.
Also, while we're on the subject, where can you fit Gargoyle into the rotation? Do you just skip out on a couple Death Coils before you use it? As far as I can tell the rotation never has two DC's in a row, so you'll have to plan it about 10 seconds early, correct?
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12/10/09, 6:08 PM
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#1449
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Glass Joe
Human Death Knight
Shattered Hand
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So I did some more testing and I went and looked at the whole thing about dc when a FU is about to come up I came up with a slightly different rotation that seems to me at least be a bit smoother
This is what I started with (The OP rot I ignored the opener as that won't change much, works either way)
SS – DC – SS – SS – DC – (DC) SS – SS – BS – Pest – DC – HoW \
and I tried this.. the secondary deathcoil now becomes norm instead of the odd one out as it is pretty much the only spot in the rotation where I could find enough time and not compromise the quick usage of FU runes
SS - SS - SS - DC - DC - SS - SS - Pest - BS - DC
Now, I didn't do a whole lot of testing but, if I had an excessive amount of rp occasionally I had time to dump it at a point, it'd almost always be after the 2nd dc dump. This also sometimes means you can only do one in the 1st. Not sure if that has an adverse affect or not.
If there's anything fundamentally wrong with this or I'm missing something let me know. The rotation just seemed to be more fluid this way. Off the top of my head I don't remember losing death coils in this variation but I might be wrong.
Edit: adding some dc info
Last edited by Yogi226 : 12/10/09 at 6:16 PM.
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12/10/09, 6:12 PM
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#1450
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Piston Honda
Orc Death Knight
Cho'gall
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Originally Posted by Frostx
I have 200ms at best and the rotation is fine. Regardless of whether your opening rotation is PS/IT - BS - Pest - SS or PS/I - SS - BS - Pest, you need to use your 2 death runes from the BS+Pest without delay when they come up so that you have enough time left on diseases when they refresh again as 2 blood runes for the BS - Pest. A common mistake that may happen is that you dump deathcoils just before your death runes become ready and put yourself a gcd behind. Only dump deathcoils when you know you have no runes (even FU) coming off cooldown within the next 1.5s. The reason i say also for FU runes is that delaying your FU scourge strikes may delay when you finally land a scourge strike that uses the 2 death runes. Keep in mind dodges/misses on your scourge strikes may cause similar delay on rune consumption.
As for movement, this is where familiarity and experience comes into play. Use blood tap for an emergency pestilence or pestilence before you move away from the boss.
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On a dummy without movement, I consistently have <1 sec left to resfresh diseases. With pest having a chance to miss, I personally would just let it drop temporarily instead of BT and reapply as soon as UF runes are up.
I tend not to use BT for emergency pestilence because as soon as BT wears off you lose a DR, essentially making you lose a SS if only 1 DR remains.
Last edited by neomasterc : 12/10/09 at 6:20 PM.
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12/10/09, 6:17 PM
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#1451
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Piston Honda
Goblin Death Knight
Korgath
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Hence why spell hit is valued so highly now. It is essential to cap it.
e: Clarity.
Last edited by Frostx : 12/10/09 at 6:25 PM.
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12/10/09, 6:17 PM
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#1452
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Piston Honda
Troll Hunter
Moonglade (EU)
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Originally Posted by xylotism
I have a few things to note here:
Recount does not seem to show currently show Scourge Strike accurately. The highest I've crit (according to Recount) in 3.2.2 ToC gear is 12k, with the average being around 6k and the minimum being under 1k. Ingame scrolling text shows me hitting for double 12ks at times.
But how people are seeing 49k NON-CRIT strikes blows my mind. I realize I'm geared a bit for haste and have little arpen to speak of, but I just can't see ~24k strikes turning into double that without something being very very wrong.
As far as the rotation, I'm having the same trouble as everyone else. Well, sort of. Instead of trying to follow it religiously, I've gotten to a half-priority system:
IT/PS to put up diseases
BS to proc Desolation
Pest to refresh/spread diseases with the Desolation buff attached
SS as core damage, and in my case, to proc SoV
DC to dump RP
HoW to build RP/fill GCD time
It gets to the point where I'm simply spamming SS/DC/HoW and having a hard time measuring when the next BS/Pest should be. The problem comes in when I'm coming toward a Pest refresh spot. There are three things that might happen for me:
1. I used too many Death Runes on SS to be able to BS/Pest in time. Usually in this case I'll pop Blood Tap to squeeze a Pest in before the timer runs out, but it usually burns my BS out of the Pest.
2. I was being careful and reapplied BS/Pest too early and clipped diseases/SS.
3. My BS/Pest have gotten out of whack from popping one early and I'm refreshing them at odd times, sometimes clipping BS out of the Pest, as in #1.
So my question is, when exactly should BS and Pest be reapplied? I see where they are in the rotation, but between mobile fights, switching targets and sometimes getting caught in other roles like CC, I find it hard to keep track of how many SS I've done since the last Pest, and such.
Also, while we're on the subject, where can you fit Gargoyle into the rotation? Do you just skip out on a couple Death Coils before you use it? As far as I can tell the rotation never has two DC's in a row, so you'll have to plan it about 10 seconds early, correct?
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Recount only shows 1 part of SS. That 12k scourge strike is 12k shadow damage, what you don't see is the 5k physical damage that goes with it. So your highest SS was around 17-18k probably.
Those very high SS crits are on Twins in ToC, because of the weird buff they give and as you know SS double dips from that. Say you do 200% damage when you get the buff, that means the physical part does twice as much and the shadow part does nearly 4 times as much (because of the buff on the physical part).
As for the pestilence thing. It's actually really simple but you have to REALLY be on the ball. You have to use runes the millisecond they are available, or you will miss your pestilence mark.
After you've done the initial rotation the best way to memorize when you need to PT is to simply say: Use all FU runes for SS, If you have a set of death runes coming up those are for SS too, if you have a set of blood runes coming up you have to Pestilence and blood strike.
Basically you spam SS until you see your blood runes coming up, and then you have to get ready to spam pestilence.
Deathcoils are used in the free GCD, if you use your runes as they are available then you should have plenty of GCD after you used your set.
For gargoyle, it depends a bit on the fights. But I tend to pop a gargoyle after my first rotation, that usually gives me all trinket buffs up.
After that I watch the timer, the moment it is available again I wait until my trinkets proc again (I generally want greatness, unholy strength and my sigil to be up), and then I use it. (They last 10+ seconds which is enough to get 60 RP).
In the case of fight where we don't have BL at the start (On saurfang for example we pop BL at the start as that is the only moment when 100% of the dps is focused on the boss), I try to just leave gargoyle up until BL goes up, and then wait for trinkets and proc it.
Empower Rune Weapon is a good ability to use when you need gargoyle asap as well.
I tend to save blood tap for emergencies where i want an instant pestilence. Say for example on Marrowgar when he starts bonestorm in 5 seconds but I only just used my deathrunes on scourge strike.
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12/10/09, 7:01 PM
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#1453
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King Hippo
Draenei Death Knight
Dragonblight
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Refined BiS lists have been added. Nothing hugely surprising, when you consider the shift in weights. ArP is up to ~1100 (non Shadowmourne) and ~1200 (Shadowmourne) passive, for the curious. I'll run "absolute BiS" stat weights after my raid tonight, although I doubt much will change aside from ArP getting a bit stronger. Crit/agi are likely to plateau, as they do decrease in value with themselves (unlike ArP), although the increased level of gear will likely keep them from actually going down.
As to the post asking about the set weights - those are only for the set bonuses. Not the pieces themselves. A 4P bonus weight does not include a 2P bonus weight, or any such thing.
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12/10/09, 7:42 PM
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#1454
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Von Kaiser
Human Death Knight
Proudmoore
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Originally Posted by Nyth_
Recount only shows 1 part of SS. That 12k scourge strike is 12k shadow damage, what you don't see is the 5k physical damage that goes with it. So your highest SS was around 17-18k probably.
As for the pestilence thing. It's actually really simple but you have to REALLY be on the ball. You have to use runes the millisecond they are available, or you will miss your pestilence mark.
After you've done the initial rotation the best way to memorize when you need to PT is to simply say: Use all FU runes for SS, If you have a set of death runes coming up those are for SS too, if you have a set of blood runes coming up you have to Pestilence and blood strike.
Basically you spam SS until you see your blood runes coming up, and then you have to get ready to spam pestilence.
Deathcoils are used in the free GCD, if you use your runes as they are available then you should have plenty of GCD after you used your set.
For gargoyle, it depends a bit on the fights. But I tend to pop a gargoyle after my first rotation, that usually gives me all trinket buffs up.
Empower Rune Weapon is a good ability to use when you need gargoyle asap as well.
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Okay, so just to clarify a few things for posterity's sake:
Recount is broken (for SS) until updated. But I did some looking and apparently "DrDamage" is updated already to show the proper SS numbers. I'm sure Recount will be updated soon, it can't be hard to make it look for "Scourge Strike hits for X Shadow" and then "Scourge Strike hits for X Physical".
About the rotation, in simpler terms the rotation translates to:
IT/PS to get your diseases up
BS to get desolation up
PT with deso buff
SS when you have FU runes
PT and BS as Blood runes are refreshing (Which comes first? I assume BS will be running out about the same time as diseases do, so is that refreshed before Pestilence?)
DC whenever no runes are available
Hopefully I got that right? Understanding why the rotation works makes it so much easier to actually do it, especially when a natural disaster happens where you have to move off target or chase it down or whatever.
Re: Gargoyle - I have ERW, trinket, speed pot and gargoyle lined up on my bar... when I plan to use Garg I usually pop them in order. That means I only have to skip one DC, if any, which should be acceptable. Gargoyle benefits from AP and Haste, based on the OP, what about Crit/Arpen?
EDIT: For clarification
Last edited by xylotism : 12/10/09 at 8:01 PM.
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12/10/09, 8:36 PM
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#1455
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Von Kaiser
Goblin Warrior
Burning Legion
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Hotfix/bug deployed that prevents the Shadow portion of Scourge Strike from critting.
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