Luckton

Hah! I knew it wasn't just me loosing my mind I spent some time tweaking with it today and I think I figured it out for how it works right now....by entering in 100 to reflect a 100% chance to hit (or not miss, however your mind wants to work), it valued up my stats the right way while still keeping me Def and Exp. capped

 

Shazear

There is no Keylogger in Rawr.
Rawr is clean and free from infections as of the time of this post. I just re-checked it.

 

Coragun

First off, wonderful program. Thanks for all your hard work on it. I have a question about threat. I have been toying between Frost dual wield tank and Blood tank. Frost wins out on survival and mitigation by a small margin, but in threat it is almost twice as much as Blood. In Blood, i use glyph of death and decay (which should be a huge threat generator) as well as death strike. I have customized the rotations to reflect my rotation. Is blood that far behind on threat generated or is it possible something is not being calculated properly.

 

mav1234

Coragun, are you making sure to correctly check buffs/debuffs in the options menu? This can have a huge impact on threat because of sunder etc.

Author: Rawr is showing my dodge/parry numbers slightly differently than I see them in game (aka lower). Since I know little about this, I don't know if this is actually wrong or intentional. I know you mentioned the calculations should be much closer... atm, in game values are 27.46% dodge and 21.54% parry. Rawr shows them as 27.38% dodge and 20.94% parry. For all I know, these are correct values and the in game ones aren't including something (DR? dunno), but just reporting it because I love this tool

 

Shazear

It's probably a calculation issue.
I'll admit that I've run as both Frost and Unholy tanking, but not yet as blood. And I know the combat threat stuff needs an over-haul. That's alot of work before it's ready, and I don't have a good ETA yet, unfortunately.

 

Shazear

It's a bit of both. I know there's a bug in there, but haven't found it yet. However, another thing to remember, is that the Rawr display is showing what the values would be vs a level 83 boss. The Wow UI is showing vs. a level 80 toon. Also there are diminishing returns, but I believe the wow UI in game also factor in DR.

 

Cromedan

I would like to know the meaning of the drop of all factors (mitigation, threat, etc) when used the glyph of UA.
Rawr suggests that having 2 glyphs (not using UA) is better than adding the third one as UA glyph.

[Glyph of Unbreakable Armor]

thanks, btw (by the way, since u don't like abbreviations) really nice work

 

Evilbunny

Exactly how often are you using DnD? Other than add pickup and maybe really large groups, e.g. ony whelps, I don't use it more than once per fight; often on boss fights I don't use it at all because our really high DPS wait a few seconds before they start going all out to give me a chance to position the boss etc. Also using IT, PS, HS, HS, DS as my opening gives me a chance to heal the bosses first attack against me and gets me more RP for rune strikes.

At least for me, RS is ~35% of my damage and therefore usually > 40% of my threat. Using DnD costs you 10 RP at the beginning of the fight when we are often fairly starved and could end up missing a RS because of it. I think that the lost threat from RS would outweigh any gains of using DnD over HS and DS.

 

Coragun

I realize there are more appropriate threads for the discussion of tanking and threat, but to answer your questions, on mobs I use D&D, PS, IT, Pest, DS,HS,DS,HS (sub BB for 4 or more mobs due to HS nerf). RS is macroed to every ability. I do check the appropriate raid buffs on the Rawr sheet. I am typically not losing threat in game, my question was more about how Rawr is calculating threat/survivability and the descrepancy between specs.

I am just suprised that w/ Vampiric Blood, Imp Blood Presence, Rune Tap and a juiced Death Strike that Dual Frost still shows as more survivable when tanking. Obviously I'm looking at finding the most survivable spec while being able to generate sufficient threat. Thanks all for the advice.

 

• frmorrison

You should never spec that as a Tank. DPS specs just get 1/2 of it as filler.

The reason why you are seeing a difference is Tank.Rawr is not a perfect model of every ability. The best bet is to try out the specs, then use Rawr to help you gear once you decide your spec.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Shazear

Thank you.
The glyph of UA used to be a PVP glyph that didn't have any use for a DK tank. I agree that now it may be much more useful, and I need to re-evaluate the changes. I'll add it to my task/issue list.

 

Shazear

As mentioned, the blood talents are VERY hard to model. Most of the +healing value and self healing aspects are not even properly factored in, because I don't have a good input model for how much healing would actually be coming in at any given time.

Frost & Unholy have more traditional survival and mitigation style talents that are more straight forward to model. I will mention that I have been looking at the results returned by the optimizer for talents and such to see if I can improve them in any way. I don't have a good flow at this point for it, but I have some ideas.

 

Shazear

There's a new build up on the Rawr site. There may be another build (27) tonight, but there will be not changes in the TankDK module from 25/26.
Please see the edited OP for the notes on what is new for the tanks among us.

I welcome your comments.

 

• frotes

Keep up the good work, I like that the accuracy from rawr is increasing every version. (the stam/avoidance numbers were my main beef with the model before).

I also like that you are trying to address the survival vs mitigation calculations. I would also like if there was a better way to balance threat stats with tanking stats, but I am unsure how you would do that since it is like comparing apples to oranges.

Excited to see what changes will come with rawr3.

Druid - Frotes

Hunter - Washte

 

Shazear

Thank you!

How would you like the Threat vs. tanking stats? Right now I'm shooting for a best-case TPS - so maybe keep the EH (Survival) as is, turn Mitigation to a DPS based stats, and that would put it on part w/ TPS... but how else would it be balanced? Right now if TPS is 5-10k, but EH is like 100k as well as average damage avoided. So not sure other than just using the multiplier like we currently have if you need Threat to be a greater part of the gear evaluation and still be a reflection of some real value.

I'm open to any feedback you may have on the matter.

 

neomasterc

wrong post.

 

• frotes

Yea I am not really that sure myself. The main thing is threat is all relative to each individual fight - is it a straight dps race, are there adds, fast attacking boss or spellcaster.

I think the best you can really do is assign a certain tps threshold you'd like similar to what we have for survival points. Then based on whatever rotation you put in (player would have to look at their own logs and judge how many of each attack they do per cycle on a particular fight) translate threat stats using that rotation to a point value.

Even then it would be up to the user to decide if the threat stats were worth the tanking stat lost but I think the best you can really do is be able to compare something like .5% avoidance to 100 hit worth of threat and make the call yourself.

Druid - Frotes

Hunter - Washte

 

Devloc

Frevor of the Frostborn doesn't seem to be correct. It has an armor proc which should boost mitigation and threat via Bladed Armor.

Well, maybe the effect is too small - doing a side-by-side with The Black Heart, I see the bonus Threat (and Mitigation) don't even add 200 points. But still, I'd have expected an additional ~120-150 points out of the Frostborn trinket.

 

txice1971

Hello all....long time lurker here on EJ, first time poster. First off let me say that it's very possible I'm not using the tool properly, I'm sure I'm probably not using RAWR to it's full potential and I won't claim to be anywhere near an expert level user. With that said, off to my question....is it possible that the critical strike effect of the Ebon Plaguebringer talent is not being calculated properly? The reason I ask is because I happened to notice that if I place one point into the Dark Conviction talent in the Blood tree, my overall/threat scores jump by about 300 points. If I take that 1 point out of Dark Conviction and place it in Ebon Plaguebringer, my overall/threat scores are not modified at all. Since one point in either talent should theoretically increase my overall crit chance by 1%, I'd expect my score to be modifed by the same amount regardless of which one the point was placed. Am I missing something?

 

Shazear

I'll add this as an issue. It's possible that the on-struck proc isn't modeled properly for this item.

 

Shazear

Yup... Looks like EPB is not providing any value, so somehow I broke it. Thank you!

 

Devloc

Other talents do bizarre things too. I was just curious to see if there was anything else getting "skipped" like EPB. I was playing with the Frost tree, and started putting points down the IIT branch. Icy Talons lowered mitigation a bit and boosted threat as expected... but Improved Icy Talons cut my mitigation by nearly 1/3rd, and tripled my threat. Even with it or WF totem inabled in the buff section. I've got a feeling if I played with it more (instead of working...) I'd find a few more curiosities =)

 

Shazear

Yup... I've fixed the Mark of Blood issue, don't have a fix for VB yet, but I'm going to do another pass of the talents once I finish plugging in the Options UI for Rawr 3.

I'm also looking at the mitigation math as a whole because I want to fix the way I'm implementing defense so that it mathematically matches the need to be def capped. The experimental code I have around this possible change may help w/ some of the talent weirdness.

Threat-based talents are going to require the re-write of the abilities/shot rotation section. It's a big project and will be handled once I get some of these other things done.