I've thought about it for a while now and I think the answer is yes, both with and without 4pT9. However, I only think it works if you have another DK in your raid to keep the target you're on diseased, otherwise you'll probably end up using one or more Frost Strike on a non-diseased/non-frost fevered target at a significant DPS loss.
Generally, you can time it about right for a FS right before Frost Feverfalls off. However with the changing of glyph of IT, we will no longer have extended dump sequences due to a lower amount of Runic Power generated. As long as you are not following a "rotation" it might be a DPS boost to wait out the Disease ticks at the end of a cycle, rather than starting a new one.
I do see where it could still net a DPS loss though, unless another DK was in the raid.
Using the Web Based, Mr. Robot Simulator, It ended up being a dps loss of about 100 to wait for the diseases to fall off before re-applying them. It might be the mechanics of the simulator though, as setting it up is a pain sometimes.
Once again, no math here to prove it, just simple speculation.
I find it hard to figurer out how to handle the expertise cap. If your hit capped should you just go for str gems since? or should you throw some expertise gems in to you reach the cap? Don't know if anyone have done the math 1 expertise = ?Dps
It would push the decision more in GoD's favor, to be sure, but remember: you still won't be able to bring IIT to your raid group and without IIT there isn't much point in speccing into Frost (that we know of).
Looking over the first round of DPS parses from last night, I'm ready to declare frost as inferior to Unholy in nearly every regard. Therefore I will not be including any specs in the OP that don't have IIT in them, as anyone speccing into Frost without grabbing IIT should be speccing into Unholy instead.
Originally Posted by oecon
Great post
I find it hard to figurer out how to handle the expertise cap. If your hit capped should you just go for str gems since? or should you throw some expertise gems in to you reach the cap? Don't know if anyone have done the math 1 expertise = ?Dps
As stated in the OP, you'll have to use a sim to determine the exact numerical values for your specific character.
After killing the first 4 bosses last night in 25 man ICC, I am thinking about dropping 4 piece T9. My log on Saurfang showed my Blood Plague at 7.1% and my Frost Fever at 6.5% http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...7965#damageout. I was running with the 15/54/2 build but now thinking that a 0/54/17 build might pull higher. I mostly went with the deep blood build for Anub'arak's adds and our 4 pc t9.
So, I have a few questions I would like answered. Pre-3.3, I was 1/52/18, which seemed to provide me with the best possible damage. I never liked the whole 0/53/18 build because you didn't get UA, which seems very important to me, even after the nerf. One of my big questions is is it okay to have extra RP building up because with 2/2 in CotG, you generate ALOT of RP, and if you spend all your RP dumping FS on a boss, your FF tick will wear off and you won't be able to reapply a new FF with the previous one on to gain the benefits of Tundra Stalker, which to me after 3.3's change to the IT glyph seems even more important to keep FF up without letting it wear off. I would like some more insight to this matter, because maybe I'm wrong and getting that one extra FS off and letting your FF tick fall off is more damage than keeping up FF at all times. If the first one is the case, then I have actually specced currently 1/53/17, which only provides one point in subversion for the extra crit chance and the 8% threat reduction helps me immensely. I have put one point in CotG which produces 12.5 additional RP instead of 25 in a full rotation, which is a much closer number to the old IT glyph, which helps with my rotation, allowing me to get 3 FS in the first half, and 2 in the 2nd half with enough time to refresh my FF and gain the 15% increase damage from TS. But like I said, I haven't been doing a whole lot of testing, but some other helpful insight would be much appreciated. I'm trying to push out as much damage as I can even though I'm frost (which my guild needs because we don't bring an enhance shaman)
Also, my link to my armory so you have a better picture of my spec I'm talking about. The World of Warcraft Armory
@fivespeed1992: Subversion only applies to your Obliterate and Blood Strike if you are doing a Frost "rotation". There are other talents you can put points into to increase your DPS that don't deal with your RP flow, but will further increase damage output. So if you can fit a Frost Strike in before your FF falls off, do so. If you can't you are probably ok clipping the FF and getting the TS bonus for your FF ticks. It just depends on what procs you get for that sequence and how you chose to use them. You may have 3 seconds to FS, or none at all.
Well what my concern was is that 2/2 CotG will generate you 25 additional RP per "rotation", which means I have a bunch of extra RP, and provided nothing goes wrong in the fight, I'll eventually be maxed out on it, and that doesn't even factor the extra RP you get from rime procs. So my question was if it's more damage to get that extra FS off and let your FF tick wear off or is it more damage to refresh a new FF while the old one is still on for the TS benefit?
Also, what is the difference between 1/2 CotG with 3/3 BCB, and 2/2 CotG with 2/3 BCB, I tend to value BCB very highly
If you have another DK in the raid, it should be fine to let FF drop off, since you get credit for tundra stalker so long as anyone's FF is on the target. I think FF gets credit for Tundra Stalker even without the disease already being on your target, but I'll do some testing later tonight to confirm that.
As for comparing BCB and CotG, it probably depends a lot on the fight (how often you can use AMS) and your raid comp (how many resto druids you have).
@fivespeed1992: According to priority, FF will always outdo FS. FF also buffs other damages sources.
And I think the difference was you could Glyph Icy Touch and spec out of CotG a little bit to pick up UA. The extra RP would make up for the one point lost in CotG
Well I just tried it on the dummy to see what would happen, and all I did was stand back about 20 yds and just hit it with IT, and watch the ticks, which unbuffed were about 316-336, then before it wore off I hit it again and watched, and it was around 356-455. But thank you for your post, I didn't actually know that it could be any frost fever, but knowing that has finally made my decision on how to spec, gotta love them Frost Strikes. Your post is very informative, long live dual wielding Frost!
Can someone do the math on the comparison with these specs to see which spec sims higher on DPS?
(0/53/18) 2/2 CotG with 3/3 BCB without UA
(0/53/18) 1/2 CotG with 3/3 BCB with UA
(0/54/17) 2/2 CotG with 2/3 BCB with UA
Another thing to consider is that 3.3 is breeding a new generation of frost tanks; also, due to the state of DKs in ICC we won't see an abundance of DK main tanks, so it's generally a good bet to have your DK offtanks keep a frost offspecc and have your best geared dps DKs go UH.
I love(d) Frost more than any other specc but in 3.3 I can't really imagine a single reason to specc into it if it can be avoided.
12 weeks without a Sigil of the Vengeful Heart drop and counting.
Looking over the first round of DPS parses from last night, I'm ready to declare frost as inferior to Unholy in nearly every regard. Therefore I will not be including any specs in the OP that don't have IIT in them, as anyone speccing into Frost without grabbing IIT should be speccing into Unholy instead.
Just out of curiosity, is there an unholy "dw" spec floating around since the patch, or do you mean spec into 2H? The unholy thread is solely dedicated to 2H now. Granted there aren't really any dw speific unholy talents really, but....
Just out of curiosity, is there an unholy "dw" spec floating around since the patch, or do you mean spec into 2H? The unholy thread is solely dedicated to 2H now. Granted there aren't really any dw speific unholy talents really, but....
Because of the ridiculous Scourge Strike scaling, going DW Unholy w unnecessarily gimp your DPS without providing any additional benefit at all.
With one week of totgc insanity and icecrown 25m cleared in 3.3 I was still relatively on close or ahead of our blood and uh DKs depending on the fight. Obviously more testing and data needs to be put in to accurately compare but I don't agree with everyone saying that frost is worthless or drastically worse if you aren't just an IIT bot. It can still compete.
Last night I dropped subversion and picked up 2/3 BCB for our totgc. I've never been a fan of BCB and haven't used it in several months. Looking at recount after each fight it only generated about 2% of my overall dps. Why is everyone so thrilled with this talent allocation? Obliterate is roughly 23% of my damage so I'm curious why 6-9% crit on that isn't worth more than BCB without considering the reduced threat gains?
@fivespeed - The only time I dropped to 1/2 cotg I noticed a big difference with RP and frequently did not have enough to complete a FS at the end of a dump. Even with 2/2 cotg and the change to GoIT I'm not sure how you still have too much RP to deal with. Do you not immediately FS as soon as you get a KM proc? Personally I do and that keeps me below max RP.
On a side note, our UH dk got a 136k scourgestrike on twins last night. Quadruple dip / broken much?
I've been noticing all the new plate gear having a lot of ArP and Haste.
Is there any benefit testing out a Frost DW building focused on Obliterate and Melee attacks; and stacking haste?
With putting on Deathspeaker Zealot's Helm that I picked up the other night, and going into unholy presence, I get 1.95 speed weapons compared to using T9.232 helm and going into blood.
Has anyone done any testing or theory crafting on Haste, and how much we would need to make it a killer stat?
Last night I dropped subversion and picked up 2/3 BCB for our totgc. I've never been a fan of BCB and haven't used it in several months. Looking at recount after each fight it only generated about 2% of my overall dps. Why is everyone so thrilled with this talent allocation? Obliterate is roughly 23% of my damage so I'm curious why 6-9% crit on that isn't worth more than BCB without considering the reduced threat gains?
You answered your own question, 1% dps per point might not be amazing, but it certainly isn't bad by any means. I think the better question is why are you assuming that 3% crit on obliterate is worth more than 1% total dps? The problem with crit is that it becomes less valuable the more you have. Going from 0% crit to 1% crit is more of a gain than going from 50% to 51%. Since Obliterate has an already high crit rate, gaining an extra few percent isn't as large of a gain as you are expecting.
From memory, the calculations in the previous frost dps thread put subversion at about .79% dps per point, and BCB ended up right around 1% per point.
As to the idea that frost is still competitive in a situation other than providing IIT, I feel that the evidence of "in my raid[...]" is rather anacdotal. On paper frost looks far behind unholy, on both single and multiple target fights. Perhaps you could post some logs of yourself so we can take a look at your numbers against an equally geared unholy DK for the same fight? Perhaps you are a stronger player overall than the unholy Dk's you play with, which might be giving you a false sense of security. I would assume that if you are very close in dps to your unholy Dk, that he might be playing incorrectly or isn't yet adjusted to the rather tight GoD unholy rotation.
With one week of totgc insanity and icecrown 25m cleared in 3.3 I was still relatively on close or ahead of our blood and uh DKs depending on the fight. Obviously more testing and data needs to be put in to accurately compare but I don't agree with everyone saying that frost is worthless or drastically worse if you aren't just an IIT bot. It can still compete.
Last night I dropped subversion and picked up 2/3 BCB for our totgc. I've never been a fan of BCB and haven't used it in several months. Looking at recount after each fight it only generated about 2% of my overall dps. Why is everyone so thrilled with this talent allocation? Obliterate is roughly 23% of my damage so I'm curious why 6-9% crit on that isn't worth more than BCB without considering the reduced threat gains?
@fivespeed - The only time I dropped to 1/2 cotg I noticed a big difference with RP and frequently did not have enough to complete a FS at the end of a dump. Even with 2/2 cotg and the change to GoIT I'm not sure how you still have too much RP to deal with. Do you not immediately FS as soon as you get a KM proc? Personally I do and that keeps me below max RP.
On a side note, our UH dk got a 136k scourgestrike on twins last night. Quadruple dip / broken much?
Notice anything? The parses from Unholy DKs are ~2k DPS higher across the board. It's only going to get worse as gear increases because of how much better Unholy scales than Frost. There is zero reason to be Frost right now if your raid group does not require you to be providing IIT.
To address your other point, the gain from Subversion is not nearly as big as it looks. The math was done in the other thread, but you'll only be seeing ~2-3% gains from picking up Subversion, about in line with what you see from taking BCB. Subversion has the benefit of lowering threat (which really shouldn't be a problem in the first place) and BCB will grant more FC procs. In the end, it's probably a wash; the skill of the user will be a far greater factor than whether or not you have Subversion or BCB.
Originally Posted by frostmorne
I've been noticing all the new plate gear having a lot of ArP and Haste.
Is there any benefit testing out a Frost DW building focused on Obliterate and Melee attacks; and stacking haste?
With putting on Deathspeaker Zealot's Helm that I picked up the other night, and going into unholy presence, I get 1.95 speed weapons compared to using T9.232 helm and going into blood.
Has anyone done any testing or theory crafting on Haste, and how much we would need to make it a killer stat?
If you run any of the numerous sims linked in the OP you will see that haste is quite good for Frost. Not the best, but not horrible either.
Is there any hope of us Frost DKs ever being competitive with the other DK specs? Blizzard has said that each spec is supposed to do the same damage give or take 1-2%, but seeing those numbers and having seen proof of it myself makes me think something isn't right. I mean I'm glad Unholy is doing more damage, but where's the love for Frost?
Frost will continue to have it's perks, and we really don't know what Blizzard has in store for us in the future. Just stick at it and hope Blizzard normalizes us.
Is there any hope of us Frost DKs ever being competitive with the other DK specs? Blizzard has said that each spec is supposed to do the same damage give or take 1-2%, but seeing those numbers and having seen proof of it myself makes me think something isn't right. I mean I'm glad Unholy is doing more damage, but where's the love for Frost?
Unholy got over a 5% nerf or likely higher a few hours ago (the shadow part of SS cannot crit) and I thought Blood and Frost were pretty close in damage. That said, even with yesterday's high Unholy dps, Frost spec was likely better for a 25m raid assuming you didn't have Enhance's WF totem buff. If Frost is still way off from Unholy damage after a few days, likely something will happen.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Unholy got over a 5% nerf or likely higher a few hours ago (the shadow part of SS cannot crit) and I thought Blood and Frost were pretty close in damage. That said, even with yesterday's high Unholy dps, Frost spec was likely better for a 25m raid assuming you didn't have Enhance's WF totem buff. If Frost is still way off from Unholy damage after a few days, likely something will happen.
It's a 10% nerf on single targets, but Unholy still does more damage than Frost and provides a unique 13% aoe magic damage buff.
Edit: Btw, just managed to get just 200dps less than Shadowmourne specs. I'll post more if it proves promising.
Edit: Btw, just managed to get just 200dps less than Shadowmourne specs. I'll post more if it proves promising.
Frost has been simulating abnormally high since as long as I can remember. I made a BiS set with the released 3.3 gear that simulates as 12700 DPS on Kahorie's.
I remember getting simulations for mid 9000s in ToC gear, which obviously never became a reality. I'm not really sure why Frost is so far off its actual DPS in simulations.
12/08/09, 2:13 PM
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