If the hit rating can be used, it's probably gonna be an upgrade. It's very hard to sim because not enough data is stored in the sims themselves to really determine how it will work, and if it can proc any abilities. Take it with a grain of salt. If it can replace a Pyrite Infuser or a Grim Toll, you're most likely good.
I have respecced to a build which actually has it but I wonder when people use it. Note that I am only running heroics at this time.
Do you guys only use it together with Blood Tap? (I have it macro'd together) Where do you guys fit it inti your rotations? As I find "losing" a Frost Rune isn't really ideal as it tends to mess up my rotation.
Would love to know when you guys use it as I'm sure it's a reasonable DPS boost for just 1 point and it's just sitting on my actionbar waiting to be used way more often.
Edit:
Just noticed the main page has it written down, strange that I never noticed. I think I know when to best use UA now.
I find that due to being fed RP through Revitalize, I often get Blood Runes left out of my attack cycle, and even have a lone Death Rune sitting there by itself. When your FFUU runes are on cooldown with a free Death Rune, and a couple Frost Strikes ready, popping it off of that would probably be ideal. I haven't been picking it up lately, but I'm actually going to respec now because that's probably a good way to use it.
That and of course the Blood Tap method, but I find that using Blood Tap can disrupt the cycle later, when it switches back to Blood from Death, when you're expecting a Death. I guess you could macro it to be removed, but there's a trick there, if you have access to it.
I find that using Blood Tap can disrupt the cycle later, when it switches back to Blood from Death, when you're expecting a Death. I guess you could macro it to be removed, but there's a trick there, if you have access to it.
This has been gone over and over in this thread already. Use Blood Tap when you have used both Death Runes and all runes are on CD, spend the rune with a UA + /cancelaura Blood Tap macro, instanty switching the Death Rune back to blood when you use it to UA. If you do this properly there's no problem keeping runes flowing with the optimal number of oblits per rune cycle.
Sorry to interrupt the current arguement, but i have a question whose answer has yet to be backed by numbers, from what i've seen. I also apologize for the long post.
Everyone says, you must go for slow/slow weapons, since Threat of Thassarian utilizes both main hand and off hand weapons, and the slower your weapon, the higher the damage, and the harder your strikes will hit. However, i've done several target-dummy tests, and in icc as well, using a 2.6speed offhand versus a 1.8speed. I tested how much damage frost strikes and obliterates were hitting.
It turned out that regardless of the speed of my offhand, and the damage on the weapon, i was still seeing my offhand frost strikes hit for approximately 600 and crit for 1500, and main hand hitting for 1600 and crit for 3600-4000. Obliterate offhand hit for 1600, crit 3k, and main hand hit 3k crit 5.5-6k damage.
As far as Threat of Thassarian goes, i do not believe the weapon in the offhand matters, for even when the talent came out, the patch notes said when hitting with those abilites, you weapon will do roughly 50% damage, and from everything i've seen, it does about 50% of main hand damage, no matter what.
Also, some people have argued slow is better for BCB and Necrosis, but from what i've seen, since both are based off weapon damage, you overall get about the same damage done, just with a fast weapon, more hits of BCB and necro, but less damage per hit, and more damage/less hits with slow weapon.
For my own preference, i like a quick offhand, because it seems to me like i do the same damage, except the razorice debuff gets stacked up quicker, and for fights like Putricide where you are constantly switching between adds, and not much dps time on boss, the quicker RI is stacked up the better.
If someone could prove my numbers are wrong, and a slow off-hand is clearly the better choice, i would greatly appreciate it.
You must have missed a parameter somewhere. I have just tested using [Billy Club] on main hand or [Frost Giant's Cleaver], my off hand strike are nearly the same (except a little loss due the AP loss on grey main hand).
Sorry to interrupt the current arguement, but i have a question whose answer has yet to be backed by numbers, from what i've seen. I also apologize for the long post.
Everyone says, you must go for slow/slow weapons, since Threat of Thassarian utilizes both main hand and off hand weapons, and the slower your weapon, the higher the damage, and the harder your strikes will hit. However, i've done several target-dummy tests, and in icc as well, using a 2.6speed offhand versus a 1.8speed. I tested how much damage frost strikes and obliterates were hitting.
It turned out that regardless of the speed of my offhand, and the damage on the weapon, i was still seeing my offhand frost strikes hit for approximately 600 and crit for 1500, and main hand hitting for 1600 and crit for 3600-4000. Obliterate offhand hit for 1600, crit 3k, and main hand hit 3k crit 5.5-6k damage.
As far as Threat of Thassarian goes, i do not believe the weapon in the offhand matters, for even when the talent came out, the patch notes said when hitting with those abilites, you weapon will do roughly 50% damage, and from everything i've seen, it does about 50% of main hand damage, no matter what.
Also, some people have argued slow is better for BCB and Necrosis, but from what i've seen, since both are based off weapon damage, you overall get about the same damage done, just with a fast weapon, more hits of BCB and necro, but less damage per hit, and more damage/less hits with slow weapon.
For my own preference, i like a quick offhand, because it seems to me like i do the same damage, except the razorice debuff gets stacked up quicker, and for fights like Putricide where you are constantly switching between adds, and not much dps time on boss, the quicker RI is stacked up the better.
If someone could prove my numbers are wrong, and a slow off-hand is clearly the better choice, i would greatly appreciate it.
The strikes are calculated per weapon, not half of the MH's damage. IIRC, the "half of the MH's damage" statement was to give an estimate of the damage. The reason you don't see much of a difference is because your weapons are terrible. Your main hand should not be critting for the same as your offhand, ever. Also you need to get numbers from an actual mob.
So when the damage with the offhand is calculated, say, after using Obliterate with two plagues up, does it go through the same calculation as the main hand (100% weapon damage plus X damage, plus benefit from plagues), except it has the offhand penalty as well? And to clarify, my main hand was not hitting the same as my offhand, it was that main hand hits were always very close to double offhand hits, and MH crits were double offhand crits. Also, the weapons i use normally are the blackhorn bludgeon and frostblade hatchet, my armory shows crappy weapons because i was testing lvl 10 weapons, lvl 40, and lvl 80 weapons, so long as they had equal dps to each other, just different speeds.
Dual Wield innately makes OH weapon do 50% damage. Nerves should make it then do 15% more. If you have the same weapon in your MH and OH then your OH should do 57% the damage of your main hand. All other modifiers are multiplicative so it doesn't matter, the OH will still do 57% of the MH if they are the same weapon. If they are different weapons then the OH would do 57% of the damage it would do if you had it in your MH.
Each point of BCB is worth ~1% total dps. Unbreakable Armor, assuming 2500 strength with raid buffs, is worth 250 strength every third of a minute, or 83 strength on average. Although it's pretty close, I would say UA pulls ahead, because you can control when you get that strength bonus, making it worth even more.
Each point of BCB is worth ~1% total dps. Unbreakable Armor, assuming 2500 strength with raid buffs, is worth 250 strength every third of a minute, or 83 strength on average. Although it's pretty close, I would say UA pulls ahead, because you can control when you get that strength bonus, making it worth even more.
Personally, I run with both UA and 3/3 BCB.
Besides controlling it, UA works well on AOE fights which is another clear advantage over BCB, assuming both talents provide a roughly similar single target damage gain.
Ok, so I don't foresee myself being able to get BiS due to not being a continuous raider. With that said, I doubt i'll be able to aim for much higher than pugging for ilvl 245 gear. On the topic of 245 weapons, I've been eyeing Raging Deathbringer. Compared to Hellscream Slicer, you lose 78 AP, 39 Haste, 39 Hit, and 58 Agi. From what notes I've been able to see about Deathbringer, it's a 5% proc that's affected by Black Ice and I would have to also assume Cinderglacier and Tundra. How much dps would the proc have to add per strike in order to outpace the stats? (not even mentioning that it is 2.7 vs 2.6 spd)
The proc is for 1666*BI*TS*0.05(proc rate) = ~105 dmg/strike without crits. With 20% spell crit, that comes out to 145/hit. Unfortunately I can't think of a reasonable way to factor in Cinderglacier, but I suspect that would also up it but I don't know if the weapon shadow bolt would eat a cinderglacier charge, which would be bad. With this said, would 156/hit outweigh the stats on the Slicer or similar ilvl weapon?
Im just wondering how some DKs are topping meters as frost(15/54/2).. I mean dont get me wrong.. for AoE fights that spec is legit. But there arent alot of AoE fights in ICC aside from the Lichking encounter...?!?!
So my real question is.. With (15/54/2) what makes people use Glyph of howling blast over glyph of icy touch in a single target fight.?
How/why are some frost DKs so high in DPS with that glyph in a single target fight?
Currently I am 15/55/1 for the lichking fight. Chilblains is in my spec because I help slow valks in p3. Otherwise I am 0/53/18.
Ramp up time for frost is much less than it is for UH. Glyph of HB is still being discussed. It's presumed that the KMRimes are the things refreshing your FF, and the extra runes left over are used for more obliterates. But, as I said, It's still being discussed.
For those who are looking at those DKs who have 10k dps and are using 15/54/2 on, for example on Festergut, they only did 2.1M damage, whereas most DKs on WoL are doing roughly 2.4-2.7M dmg. The number of your actual DPS is okay to brag about if you're talking about who can do the most dps, but ultimately, you wanna put out as much damage as you possibly can, because you can blow a ton of cooldowns and do certain things to give you a huge burst of damage to bump up your dps.
Best thing I can say is just look at some of the other DKs who are doing around what I said earlier, and get a better idea. Also, as said above, the glyph of HB is still being looked at and discussed.
As far as I know, the rankings on WoL are based on effective dps, which means your dps over the course of the entire length of the fight. This is to prevent skewing of the data from things like burst phases and whatnot. As for the amount of damage done, make sure you are looking at the actual time of the fight. Some parses have quicker kills, which obviously result in less damage done.
As far as I know, the rankings on WoL are based on effective dps, which means your dps over the course of the entire length of the fight. This is to prevent skewing of the data from things like burst phases and whatnot. As for the amount of damage done, make sure you are looking at the actual time of the fight. Some parses have quicker kills, which obviously result in less damage done.
Well at that point, you'd probably want to look at your own guild's average kill time on the boss and base your spec on that. 15/54/2 definitely has the potential to be a bit burstier than the traditional method. I'm still a little confused on the priority system with a glyph of HB set up, and does it really work as well as advertised?
Like I said, burst is irrelevant for WoL rankings. Your actual dps will be higher than your effective dps. And if 15/54/2's burst allows it to take advantage of certain phases, that's a good thing, and it will make the blood subspec worth more. The statement "oh, blood subspec is only good because it can put out a lot of damage quickly" isn't really a disadvantage
I think there are a few people who are testing the HB Glyph and hopefully they will
report back here. I personally tried it and I just had a hard time becoming comfortable. I'm sticking with the unholy subspec for now; it's done well for me thus far.
Like I said, burst is irrelevant for WoL rankings. Your actual dps will be higher than your effective dps. And if 15/54/2's burst allows it to take advantage of certain phases, that's a good thing, and it will make the blood subspec worth more. The statement "oh, blood subspec is only good because it can put out a lot of damage quickly" isn't really a disadvantage
I think there are a few people who are testing the HB Glyph and hopefully they will
report back here. I personally tried it and I just had a hard time becoming comfortable. I'm sticking with the unholy subspec for now; it's done well for me thus far.
Funny thing is I was actually talking to you about this the other Zumal :P lol. I've been toying around with 15/54/2 for a while now, and just from what I've seen the DPS has potential to be alot higher compared to that of an unholy subspec due to the increase in crit causing your obliterates to crit more often and for ridiculous amounts (thanks to awareness). The problem is that if you run into a crit drought or if you happen to not utilize your procs correctly..then your DPS isn't going to be very impressive in the slightest compared to an unholy subspec. Granted I have about 47% crit fully raid buffed in my DW frost spec, I'll get obliterates critting about 70% of the time on some fights, and other times i'll get about 55% just because the RNG likes toying with me like that .
Rotation-wise on the other hand....15/54/2 w/ GoHB takes alot of getting used to because the only set part of the rotation you have is the your first set involving it->ps->UB->bt->oblit->bs. From then on it revolves around using rime procs or KM procs to refresh your FF with hb and managing your blood/death runes so that you're able to refresh both your diseases.
There's not really any other way to explain how to pull this rotation off aside from sitting on a dummy for a few hours playing around with it and watching procs until you finally understand what to use when and how to keep diseases on your target. Your main goal is to steer away from using IT to refresh FF.
So if you're gonna try out this rotation:
**If diseases are about to tick off or have gone about half their duration**
1) rime proc-> refresh ff, use next available rune to refresh BP, if you have a blood rune up use it to change it to a DR for later, proceed with 2 obliterates. (if you happen to use a KM proc with this as well, then the better)
2)km proc only (no rime proc)-> hb to refresh in place of a obliterate, use a death rune to refresh BP, oblit with the other 2 runes, use your other blood rune to change it to a death rune for later.
3) no rime proc, no km proc -> reapply diseases the normal way and get back into refreshing w/ HB once procs start coming in again so you can get back into your rotation.
4) Use UA/BT whenever they're available.
^These are just a few scenarios I've run into and what I found personally to be an effective way of refreshing your diseases.
I view my current rotation as more or less a 17/0/54 unholy rotation (with the above 4 cases implemented) using your runes in a F U B F U B rotation after your initial rotation. At least one of your blood runes should be a DR at all times to help smooth your rotation out.
..granted this is 5 in the morning where I am and I'm trying to type this out, excuse me if some of this doesn't make sense. If this somehow manages to help anyone out there trying to figure out what to do in this spec then thats great lol
I did some tests about 15/54/2 too and i found a 300-400 DPS increase on raid situation.
But it's really hard to evaluate cause ICC on my server is way too laggy; i dont remember a Saurfang done withtout lag at all. Or a Festergut.
Like Subversus i found those "rules" to be true:
1) rime proc-> refresh ff, use next available rune to refresh BP, if you have a blood rune up use it to change it to a DR for later, proceed with 2 obliterates. (if you happen to use a KM proc with this as well, then the better)
2)km proc only (no rime proc)-> hb to refresh in place of a obliterate, use a death rune to refresh BP, oblit with the other 2 runes, use your other blood rune to change it to a death rune for later.
3) no rime proc, no km proc -> reapply diseases the normal way and get back into refreshing w/ HB once procs start coming in again so you can get back into your rotation.
4) Use UA/BT whenever they're available.
Except the second one which, for me, leads to:
2)km proc only (no rime proc)-> Obliterate, use a death rune to refresh BP, oblit with the other 2 runes, use your other blood rune to change it to a death rune for later.
I've some doubts anyways:
I've seen the DPS has potential to be alot higher compared to that of an unholy subspec due to the increase in crit causing your obliterates to crit more often and for ridiculous amounts (thanks to awareness)
I dont' use Awareness. And i don't get how, with HB prioritize, could be effective instead of Virulence.
Plus, i'd like to know how much uptime you get for Advantage (second T10 bonus set, which i got only last night,) to make some tests too.
2)km proc only (no rime proc)-> Obliterate, use a death rune to refresh BP, oblit with the other 2 runes, use your other blood rune to change it to a death rune for later.
I believe he is referring to what to do for refreshing deseases. So your only refreshing BP and wait for Rime or are your freshing with IT anyway?
I believe he is referring to what to do for refreshing deseases. So your only refreshing BP and wait for Rime or are your freshing with IT anyway?
Refreshing with IT; using that KM Proc for a FS.
To be sure i'll have the right runes at right time there are "cycles" where I refresh diseases 3 seconds before they end. Really small DPS loss to gain the advantage to mantain the control over Blood/Death runes, which they are for larger part of the fight on a ratio 1:1.
I'm not saying i'm doing right in case number (2) anyways. But my maths, for my previous gear, lead to that choice.
I guess my question at this point would be: Could you post up a basic rule guide for this spec on what to do in certain situations when it comes to refreshing diseases based on your proc scenario as well what to do when your diseases still have plenty of time left?
I think its basically a question of "to clip or not to clip". If FF is not present from another DK it may be a no brainer, but if so? 15s is rather short. If you got a Rime/KMRime I would Oblit anyway until my diseases fall off, or not?
I just felt this was worth mentioning; posted on mmo-champ a little while ago:
Glyph of Disease bug - Icy Talons not active after a disease refresh
The intent is that the Glyph of Disease counts as Frost Fever for the purposes of activating Icy Talons. The issue you describe is a technical limitation which prevents it from working this way. It's something we definitely want to fix, though I don't have a time frame to provide at the moment for when this fix will occur. -Blizzard
This could drastically change the way the spec is played.
02/07/10, 11:07 PM
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