IT and DC are not effected by the flask debuff, they retain their normal hit chances. Your melee abilities are the only ones that will suffer the hit penalty.

I am unsure if this was covered earlier, but with the upcoming changes of Cataclysm, they will be removing AP as a standard stat on weapons and gear; replacing it with Agility.

Now, since majority of the weapons that Frost DW uses, has AP has the biggest stat. Will having tons of Agility in place of AP be a big DPS loss? Or will Blizzard recognize this issue and try to even it out by creating some 1h weapons to have Str?

Or will it all be down to having to get a new profession of Reforging (or whatever) to place Str on our own weapons if nothing else is provided?

"Reforging - While these changes will go a long way to making a wider variety of stats more attractive, we understand that sometimes you simply don’t want more Hit Rating on your gear or you’d rather have more Haste than more Crit. In Cataclysm, we are going to give players a way to replace stats on gear as part of the existing profession system. As a general rule of thumb, you’ll be able to convert one stat to 50% of another stat. While some conversions (like converting Stamina to Strength) won’t be permitted, the goal is to let you customize your gear more."

This will likely fix it, or maybe a talent to convert Agi to Str like Ele Shamans will get for Spirit to Hit. Or the best fix IMO would be to just leave AP on one-handed physical-dps weapons (Just like they are removing Spell Power but it will still appear on caster weapons).

Also, this isn't the place to theorycraft expansion details.

They'll probably leave AP on one handers (like caster weapons with SP). I can't see them going out of their way to bone Frost DKs, especially after buffing them in 3.3.3. Maybe Frost will be "the" tank spec in Cataclysm? Who knows.

This conversation is based on the faulty idea that they would change the itemization without adjusting the Frost tree itself to appropriately utilize one-handed weapons. It's a silly assumption to make considering they're adjusting every other class to work with the way things are going to be itemized in Cataclysm.

It's not really worth discussing until we have more information.

Just kinda worried as to what is going to happen with armorpen for dk's, based off the small amount of info that we have gotten from blizz about Cataclysm. Not really 100% sure if it's staying or going like AP.

"Armor Penetration: It is being replaced with Mastery"

"Mastery
- Mastery aims to simplify the ever-growing talent trees
- Passive bonuses gained by allotting a certain number of points in a tree, rather than having to spend points on those specific bonuses"

Those are both taken from the cataclysm forums so based on this info not sure where armorpen is going or what will replace it in our tree's.

For my sake I hope they give us something that is equilvant to it since with my build when my trinket pops I have 100% armorpen.

I'm getting 1/2 CoTG and 2/5 BI to be the most optimal if you're receiving some passive RP. Does anyone know off the top of their head how exactly 1/2 CoTG works? It says you get 2.5 RP, so does that mean you get 2 RP for your first F/U and 3 RP for the one after (ad infinium)?

It does. The game will keep track of RP in decimals, it just doesn't display it.

has someone ptr experience about GoD is usefull?
in our german dk forum many player means it's hard to work with it.
only one second left to refresh the disease.

In a movement fight you may be better of switching to blood strikes or just forgetting your rotation because often a boss can move right when you are about to cast it. I always find that even if my rotations go to shit in these situations my dps is still higher. On a nice normal fight its not a difficult spell to use. Even with blood tap bugging out, I have to blood strike, than during the global cooldown I have to BT and UA then cast Pest. I used it before in Ulduar and was very happy with it. Overall its just about not pushing your luck when its about time to refresh your diseases. If you can hold off on getting one more frost strike off, then you should be good.

As someone who use to play GoD Frost in TotGC, the 1s refresh window is fine if you mash your keys. The only awkward thing with it is the use of Unbreakable Armor which I have just been doing BT+UA instead of a BS on the BS P of the rotation.

EDIT: The above answer is also very good.

So ya... getting back on topic, Spiattalo, DW frost is 1k dps higher than 2h. If that still makes 2h viable for you, then you can go ahead and try it. Also, it has already been said that frost numbers are way overinflated in the sims. 2H frost will NOT be equal to 2H Unholy in 3.3.3.

any chance of getting a stat weight table put up in the original post? or is it gonna be really close to the unholy one?

main reason for asking is i'm trying to figure out which upgrade i "need" and which ones would be kinda nice but better in the hands of other raiders (i.e. their BiS gear)

For stat weights expect big values for spellhit (up to 17% total hit) and expertise (up to 26), while haste should be low.

Heh, I've always been a fan of 2h Frost, what can I do. :P

On a serious note, I just tried to say that maybe they could easily find a way to let 2h Frost to be also viable by restricting the current gap between DW.
That aside, how much would you quantify the inflation of the sims regard Frost? Would just the inflation justify 1k dps better than unholy? I'm actually asking out of curiosity, not to state my simulations respond to reality.

Honestly, your stat wheights are going to be very similar to blood. Expertise and ArPen both go up. crit and agility go up a little bit. Haste becomes even more worthless. Spell hit not so much, especially with all the +hit were getting in frost and unholy.

I'm no expert but what seems most logical is to Blood Tap the blood rune into a death rune, using it for UA as you pointed out. Combined with refreshing diseases every 25 seconds (which is cutting it close) that blood rune used for pestilence will come up every 60 seconds as a death rune, usable for UA.

Though given priority time and lagtime and whatnot, even if you're pestilencing every 20-23 seconds, you should still be able to keep that blood rune as a death rune for UA, as long as you're mindful not to Obliterate a double death rune with UA coming off cooldown.

Long time reader, first time poster.

I was just wondering if it was possible to have some clarification on haste within 3.3.3. Reading the posts there has been some suggestion that it might be more valuable in relation to the PPM effect of Killing Machine, an additional boost from Icy Talons, more procs of BCB and ROTFC and RI, and also extra necrosis damage. Does this perhaps suggest that Hyperspeed Accelerators might increase in value? They are easy to utilise along with Unbreakable Armor thanks to a similar cooldown, and also would create a great haste boost when used alongside Heroism and Potion of Speed. Also, it is easy to see that ArP would be a vastly improved stat thanks to more Obliterates, but would Haste and ArP work well together to increase physical white damage, or does Necrosis override this due to shadow damage ignoring armor?

Thanks in advance.

FAIRLY certain diseases only last 21 seconds, and the best way to use UA/BS without breaking GoD is to just use your death runes on UA and a BS. This has been discussed plenty of times before, however.

Well, I’m not as up on the math, but you seem to be even less so, so here's a simple description-

Haste's only true value is with your auto attack melee damage and PPM. RP generation and Rune cool down are largely unaffected. You’re just buffing auto attack melee which should currently be something above 20% of your total DPS. You will notice a sizable increase in your PPM with 45% static haste, but 3% here or there is negligible.

Agility is currently more valuable then haste. Why? Because it gives crit to all melee attacks. Obliterate, Blood Strike, Auto Attacks and Frost Strike all fall under that.

Crit is next in line. Why? Because it buffs all attacks that can crit & costs less per point to achieve 1% crit then agility

Armor Pen is after that in value. Why? Because It directly affects the damage output of all physical attacks and where as other stats begin to have diminishing returns, its value goes up with it’s scaling. It’s also easier to achieve 1% per point then the other stats.

Necrosis & BCB both scale with haste, but they scale better with Armor Pen.

The only skill that would benefits more from haste then the other stats listed is Killing Machine, but even the value of 1% more haste for KM’s benefit is outweighed by even 1% of either Arpen or Crit in general.


*I’m leaving Strength, Hit & Expertise out of this. They’re value should be known by now. The specifics of ratios for stat value is different for everyone, but there are some assumptions you can make.

Theoretically, BCB will stop benefitting from haste once you get your weapon speed down to 1.5 or lower.

BCB has an internal CD of 3 secs for MH and OH together (3.1), so at the most you will proc 21 BCB's per minute, and that is assuming you proc a BCB as soon as combat begins and all others as soon as the cooldown wears off.

With weapon speed at 1.5, you'll get 80 melee swings per minute of combat. If you're around 9% melee hit, which translates into about 66 successful hits after miss chance, then you will have a chance to produce 20 PPM.

If you factor in RNG to proc chance after the BCB cooldown, a 20 PPM chance is probably a bit to high since that would mean nearly 100% proc as soon as the CD wears off.

Even with .5 weapon speed mathematically it should average 1 sec after the CD to proc another, which would only put you at 16 PPM

BCB does not have an ICD anymore, if I recall correctly that was an unintended issue from a couple major patches back.