Frost DPS in 3.3.3::This will be a day long remembered - Page 42

daia · 02/24/10, 8:48 PM

Originally Posted by Mindaika

I'm not sure why you think this would make frost a viable subspec for unholy/blood builds. It takes 26 points to get to IIT, many of which buff abilities unholy/blood don't use. The increased haste WOULD make both BCB and necrosis more valuable though for frost builds.

You only need 15 points to get the 20% haste from normal Icy Talons. You also get Black Ice on the way, which is not to shabby.

Haastrain · 02/24/10, 9:02 PM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

Gentlemen, stop daydreaming, and use some logic. This exact same effect happened during some iteration in the past and was noted to be a bug of the implementation of the game mechanics. Frost was a small margin behind UH before 3.3.3, and with the buff to NoCS and the 4% additional STR is now competing for top spot. Can you really consider something as idiotic as a passive additional 20% haste buff? A passive, 2/3 Bloodlust that's perma-on?

I don't believe this is daydreaming. Just put two things together... "Icy Talons: The personal haste benefit provided by this talent is no longer exclusive with other sources of melee haste. This will allow death knights to always swing 4/6/12/16/20% faster when Frost Fever is applied." and "Improved Icy Talons: This effect is now passive instead of being a proc. The self haste buff remains unchanged."

This bold part of the first quote does not seem to make sense if they don't combine because we would not attack 20% faster when Frost Fever is applied because IIT is going to be passive. Unless they are talking about if you go to Icy talons without getting IIT, which seems very unlikely.

It also doesn't even makes sense that they would specify it's no longer exclusive with other haste effects if it is going to act the same. Pretty much what I am saying is that saying ITT is now a passive aura is enough if that was the only change.

Mindaika · 02/24/10, 9:45 PM

Originally Posted by daia

You only need 15 points to get the 20% haste from normal Icy Talons. You also get Black Ice on the way, which is not to shabby.

You can do that now, but no one does it because: For unholy, it means losing Bladed Armor, Subversion, 2H weapon spec and Dark Conviction.

Rambaldi · 02/24/10, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by Mindaika

You can do that now, but no one does it because: For unholy, it means losing Bladed Armor, Subversion, 2H weapon spec and Dark Conviction.

Your obviously overlooking the whole point that in 3.3.3 Icy Talons stacks with Windfury/IIT, so for unholy it would be 40% more haste with Windfury/IIT active. If they put the 15 points in there now, they wouldn't receive anything from Icy Talons as it doesn't currently stack.

Mewantbrains · 02/24/10, 10:23 PM

This is a frost thread. Theory craft UH in the UH thread. It's insanely easy to sim UH since it doesn't use procs and rng.

It does seem like frost is going to have 45% haste.

Originally Posted by opkiller

ok on the 15/54/2 why the 2 in virulance? I never miss with my spells thats 1 thing and the other is I never see a mob dispell. What I was thinking is why not take 2 pts in virulance and put them in death rune mastery? I dont know if this would be a bad thing this would allow u to build death runes in all 3 slots blood/frost and unholy based on your strikes this could help you get more strikes/attacks out. I am I missing something?

I don't really see a time where death rune mastery would ever benefit frost. The only way converting U and F runes into D runes would be beneficial is if you had of the same rune off CD and I don't see how that would ever happen. I'm not sure what your hit is at, but your spells should still have a chance to miss.

daia · 02/24/10, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by Mewantbrains

It does seem like frost is going to have 45% haste.

Yes, it will:

You put 5 points in Icy Talons. While fighting (and applying Frost Fever), you swing 20% faster. If you have talented Windfury Totem on you, you swing a total of 40% faster.

You now put a 6th point in Improved Icy Talons as well. You have a passive personal 25% haste at all times. When you engage in combat and apply Frost Fever, you now have 45% melee haste. If you have Windfury also, you still only have 45% haste since Windfury and Improved Icy Talons are exclusive.

This is basically a 20% haste buff to any DK who has Icy Talons and Improved Icy Talons.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Please clarify this DK note (IIT)

Dethen · 02/25/10, 12:24 AM

Originally Posted by daia

Yes, it will:

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Please clarify this DK note (IIT)

This is absolutely amazing. Now my question is, because our haste is going to be basically double what it was, will BCB still be worth taking, or would the points be better placed in subversion or something of the sort? Something along the lines of this?

2/54/15

I'm not sure how stupid this sounds, it's pretty early in the morning with little sleep today, and I just now saw that the 45% haste is legit.

Soshika · 02/25/10, 12:29 AM

More haste makes blood caked blade better, so you aren't going to gain dps from taking points out of it.

Dethen · 02/25/10, 12:33 AM

So basically a 0/54/17 spec would still be one of the top specs? Of course swapping some points out of BI or CotG to fill up Endless Winter in the process.

afeher · 02/25/10, 12:40 AM

Well I was on the PTR before they went down, and I saw a 800-1000 DPS gain. I guess its from the 25% off buff and not some kind of +20% haste.

But will check soon as the PTRs online. Simple check the attack speed on retail and compare to PTR. Simple as that.

EDIT: It really is that way. +20% haste for us...

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Please clarify this DK note (IIT)

Soshika · 02/25/10, 12:42 AM

If the dps per talent point table that was posted a few pages back is accurate then something similar to this is likely to come out on top.

KyubiEI · 02/25/10, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by Soshika

If the dps per talent point table that was posted a few pages back is accurate then something similar to this is likely to come out on top.

I know it isn't a massive gain, but as stated before, most ICC bosses require some kind of massive burn at low % in order to beat enrages or big damage or whatever else, so I'd think removing Merciless Combat from our spec would be ill advised. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Soshika · 02/25/10, 1:02 AM

There are certainly situations when you want a lot of damage when the boss is at low health, merciless combat is obviously good there.

There are also other situations when there is no particular reason to want higher damage near the end of the fight. We should gain some insight into whether or not merciless combat should be taken for these bosses anyway when we have some more sims with the extra haste included.

KyubiEI · 02/25/10, 1:06 AM

Originally Posted by Soshika

There are certainly situations when you want a lot of damage when the boss is at low health, merciless combat is obviously good there.

There are also other situations when there is no particular reason to want higher damage near the end of the fight. We should gain some insight into whether or not merciless combat should be taken for these bosses anyway when we have some more sims with the extra haste included.

I guess your build will also change a little based on your guild. Personally I see no point in the threat reduction and a 2% drop in frost/shadow damage seems like it could be made up and then some with merc. combat. So I was thinking of trying:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...fGuD,SIa,11599

when the servers go live and test it against my own tanks.

Edit: Or even taking one out of KM, leaving Black Ice 5/5, would work too...

Raivious · 02/25/10, 1:35 AM

Originally Posted by Soshika

If the dps per talent point table that was posted a few pages back is accurate then something similar to this is likely to come out on top.

Like someone else said merciless combat is useful on bosses such as Lich King, Saurfang, Sindragosa, BQL, Putricide. But even if the list is correct it was showing merciless combat ahead of Black Ice, you can easily take two points from black ice and use them for merciless combat instead and then use the same spec you linked.

But its all relative to your own gear and that list doesn't take into account the new 20% melee haste from icy talons. At least it wasn't mentioned so I assume it doesn't.